Anyone want to explain to me how ObamaCare is going to

[Ishmael]

control health care costs?

As far as I can see it's a shell game. More of an exercise in creative accounting than anything else. Make a new column, make a new row, move some numbers around. Nothing more than that.

So all of you ObamaCareophiles, take a crack at how this is going to control health care costs.

Ishmael

 

[kbate]

Through prevention. More people will spend early on health and fewer will end up in emergency rooms with disaster looming.

A colonoscopy today saves an ass-cancer tomorrow.

Colonoscopy costs, $800
ass Cancer costs $125,000

Taxpayers and those with insurance pay for both anyway (in case of medicAid/Medicare) so which bill would you rather pay?

 

[unregistered]

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

It is a no brainer.

You take over the insurance companies by telling them who and what they will cover and then let the increase in volume create massive profits...

:nods:

... of course, to create the volume, you have to put the government's guns to the heads of the people.

When all of those sick people are back on insurance, of course health care costs will go down because the government will set the prices. Everyone knows doctors, hospitals and drug companies have been gouging us for years. They need to be run more like the USPS.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Sure. More people get lower cost preventative case. Fewer people get insanely high cost Emergency Room care. More focus on population health and outcomes and less focus on how many lab tests MRIs and can be ordered.

Tax medical devices so there is more money in the pool for care compensation.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Through prevention. More people will spend early on health and fewer will end up in emergency rooms with disaster looming.

A colonoscopy today saves an ass-cancer tomorrow.

Colonoscopy costs, $800
ass Cancer costs $125,000

Taxpayers and those with insurance pay for both anyway (in case of medicAid/Medicare) so which bill would you rather pay?

"You cap your health care budget, and you make the political and economic choices you need to make to keep affordability within reach."
"And it's important also to make health a human right because the main health determinants are not health care but sanitation, nutrition, housing, social justice, employment, and the like."
"One over-demanded service is prevention: annual physicals, screening tests, and other measures that supposedly help catch diseases early."
Donald Berwick
Death Panel Czar

"The primary function of regulation in health care, especially as it affects the quality of medical care, is to constrain decentralized, individualized decision making."
Donald Berwick
Death Panel Czar

“Some years down the pike, we’re going to get the real solution, which is going to be a combination of death panels and sales taxes.”
Paul Krugman

kbate, cancer costs far, far less when end-of-life counseling is employed.

You save with less testing and with less treating.

 

[kbate]

Sure. More people get lower cost preventative case. Fewer people get insanely high cost Emergency Room care. More focus on population health and outcomes and less focus on how many lab tests MRIs and can be ordered.

Tax medical devices so there is more money in the pool for care compensation.

The medical device tax is moronic and will only serve to make preventive care more expensive. The pittance it adds to the "pool" isn't worth the costs and that bit should be repealed instantly and without argument.

The republicans and democrats could get together on that as the "cut" to get the government back to work.

 

[miles]

Simple: quality and quantity of treatment is going to drop.

 

[unregistered]

 

[tactful]

Through prevention. More people will spend early on health and fewer will end up in emergency rooms with disaster looming.

A colonoscopy today saves an ass-cancer tomorrow.

Colonoscopy costs, $800
ass Cancer costs $125,000

Taxpayers and those with insurance pay for both anyway (in case of medicAid/Medicare) so which bill would you rather pay?

Ass cancer operation:
Non-insured $125,000.
Insured $5,000.

 

[kbate]

"You cap your health care budget, and you make the political and economic choices you need to make to keep affordability within reach."
"And it's important also to make health a human right because the main health determinants are not health care but sanitation, nutrition, housing, social justice, employment, and the like."
"One over-demanded service is prevention: annual physicals, screening tests, and other measures that supposedly help catch diseases early."
Donald Berwick
Death Panel Czar

"The primary function of regulation in health care, especially as it affects the quality of medical care, is to constrain decentralized, individualized decision making."
Donald Berwick
Death Panel Czar

“Some years down the pike, we’re going to get the real solution, which is going to be a combination of death panels and sales taxes.”
Paul Krugman

kbate, cancer costs far, far less when end-of-life counseling is employed.

You save with less testing and with less treating.

yay! canned and grey quotes to the battle front!

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Sure. More people get lower cost preventative case. Fewer people get insanely high cost Emergency Room care. More focus on population health and outcomes and less focus on how many lab tests MRIs and can be ordered.

Tax medical devices so there is more money in the pool for care compensation.

The flaw behind these idealistic economic analyses is the complete rejection of Human Action as is a well-intentioned law will abrogate human nature. The same irresponsible people who put themselves into a position where health insurance was out of their reach are not exactly the people who will be making sound decisions about health and getting frequent checkups just because we are now paying for their health care.

There is still a lot of open debate on the efficacy of all these preventative tests.

WOW!

That is a good idea. Anytime you want to decrease the amount of a product available (like cigarettes) you raise taxes on it.

 

[miles]

With Kbate in charge all will be tested for ass cancer at $800 a pop, forgetting that only a small percentage of folks will get ass cancer in the first place, thus you've spent more on testing than you'll realize in savings.

I'm sure you'll have ass doctors lining up to charge $800 for a colonoscopy.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

With Kbate in charge all will be tested for ass cancer at $800 a pop, forgetting that only a small percentage of folks will get ass cancer in the first place, thus you've spent more on testing than you'll realize in savings.

Not to mention false positives.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

yay! canned and grey quotes to the battle front!

The proponents of the bill should be paid attention to.

They say the tests are a waste of time.

End-of-life treatment is also a waste of time, that is the purpose of the iPAB.

As vette points out and I said right under the quotes of the players involved, the plan is to save by reducing tests and reducing treatment replacing it with end-of-life counseling and hospice.

 

[miles]

Anyone who thinks Obamacare will reduce costs also must believe in the tooth fairy.

 

[Ishmael]

Through prevention. More people will spend early on health and fewer will end up in emergency rooms with disaster looming.

A colonoscopy today saves an ass-cancer tomorrow.

Colonoscopy costs, $800
ass Cancer costs $125,000

Taxpayers and those with insurance pay for both anyway (in case of medicAid/Medicare) so which bill would you rather pay?

While that sounds good on paper, and rolls off the tongue nicely, it just isn't going to happen. No amount of prevention is going to save you from death and 80% of an individuals lifetime health care costs are expended in the last 6 months of their lives. It doesn't matter what the individuals age is, 6, 60, 100, the numbers are the same. Preventative medicine merely postpones the the big hit when it comes.

Further it assumes that everyone is going to follow their doctors recommendations re. the use of alcohol, drugs, etc. We know that isn't going to work out either, unless congress wants to put some penalty on not following your doctors orders.

But being able to eliminate that 80% in the last 6 months, now we're getting somewhere.

Ishmael

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The medical device tax is moronic and will only serve to make preventive care more expensive. The pittance it adds to the "pool" isn't worth the costs and that bit should be repealed instantly and without argument.

The republicans and democrats could get together on that as the "cut" to get the government back to work.

They both agree on this point but the Democrats are in full "just say no to compromise" mode because Harry and Barry want a government shutdown.

Are there ANY moderates left in the Democratic Party or have they been terrified into silence by threat of purge?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

While that sounds good on paper, and rolls off the tongue nicely, it just isn't going to happen. No amount of prevention is going to save you from death and 80% of an individuals lifetime health care costs are expended in the last 6 months of their lives. It doesn't matter what the individuals age is, 6, 60, 100, the numbers are the same. Preventative medicine merely postpones the the big hit when it comes.

Further it assumes that everyone is going to follow their doctors recommendations re. the use of alcohol, drugs, etc. We know that isn't going to work out either, unless congress wants to put some penalty on not following your doctors orders.

But being able to eliminate that 80% in the last 6 months, now we're getting somewhere.

Ishmael

More grey for kbate:

The government big enough to give you something is big enough to take it away.
A_J, the Stupid

The more government does on your behalf, the less you can do on your own behalf.
A_J, the Stupid

The more government is asked to do on your behalf, the less it can actually get accomplished.
A_J, the Stupid

~AND~

As we have learned by watching government exempt itself...

When you work for government, government works for you.
A_J, the Stupid

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Anyone who thinks Obamacare will reduce costs also must believe in the tooth fairy.

Or the Credit Fairy...


After all, the Health Care Fairy is delivering them Obamabucks...

"Why are you here?"

"To get some money."

"What kind of money?"

"Obama money."

"Where's it coming from?

"Obama."

"And where did Obama get it?"

"I don't know... his stash, I don't know. I don't know where he got it from, but he's givin' it t'us to help us. We love him. That's why we voted for him... Obama! Obama!"

Six Times
Mm-Mm, That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

That's what I voted for!
6 TIMES!

 

[tactful]

I sense there's gonna be a whole lot of unemployed college grads the one's that have been looking for a good part time job rushing out the door, they will run to the nearest computer and sign up. Hell I can hear the pitter-patter of sneakers and shoes scooting across the floor as we speak.

 

[kbate]

While that sounds good on paper, and rolls off the tongue nicely, it just isn't going to happen. No amount of prevention is going to save you from death and 80% of an individuals lifetime health care costs are expended in the last 6 months of their lives. It doesn't matter what the individuals age is, 6, 60, 100, the numbers are the same. Preventative medicine merely postpones the the big hit when it comes.

Further it assumes that everyone is going to follow their doctors recommendations re. the use of alcohol, drugs, etc. We know that isn't going to work out either, unless congress wants to put some penalty on not following your doctors orders.

But being able to eliminate that 80% in the last 6 months, now we're getting somewhere.

Ishmael

Why do you just jump up to the final minutes? Why is the republican argument always focused on 'death'. It isn't the dying this bill is about, it is the 27 to 62 year old who never sees a doctor until their only option is death or an operation that they cannot afford.

Is Medicare 100% effective? No. Does every senior follow their doctor's recommendation? No. Does every person with insurance they buy themselves follow their doctor's recommendations? No. False argument.

Why not listen to the insurance companies instead of the right wing pundits?

 

[Busybody]

Through prevention. More people will spend early on health and fewer will end up in emergency rooms with disaster looming.

?

cause NO ONE KNOWS THAT NOW

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Why do you just jump up to the final minutes? Why is the republican argument always focused on 'death'. It isn't the dying this bill is about, it is the 27 to 62 year old who never sees a doctor until their only option is death or an operation that they cannot afford.

Is Medicare 100% effective? No. Does every senior follow their doctor's recommendation? No. Does every person with insurance they buy themselves follow their doctor's recommendations? No. False argument.

Why not listen to the insurance companies instead of the right wing pundits?

Is this the same kbate who insists that she is a Libertarian?

No one is focusing on "DEATH" here, that is the iPAB, we are focusing on cost and how Obama told us he would handle cost using his own family members...

Remember the 90 year-old woman?

No subjective measurements, only objective. She would not be a cost effective use of resources.

Now, when the impersonal forces of the market deny you care because of the kind of life you have led, well that is understandable to most people, life is life, it is not fair, it is what you make of it. However, when you turn to personal, friendly force of government to make it fair and impartial, and then government treats you just the same way as the free markets and insurance companies would have, then you cannot understand it.

As Hayek writes:

Once it becomes increasingly true, and is generally recognized, that the position of the individual is determined not by impersonal forces, not as a result of the competitive efforts of many, but by the deliberate decision of authority; the attitude of the people towards their position in the social order necessarily changes. There will always exist inequalities which appear just to those who suffer, disappointments which will appear unmerited, and strokes of misfortune which those hit have not deserved. But when these things occur in a society which is consciously directed, they way in which people will react will be very different from what it is when they are nobody's conscious choice.
From Who, Whom?
FA Hayek, Road to Serfdom, Chapter eight p. 137

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I sense there's gonna be a whole lot of unemployed college grads the one's that have been looking for a good part time job rushing out the door, they will run to the nearest computer and sign up. Hell I can hear the pitter-patter of sneakers and shoes scooting across the floor as we speak.

Aren't they still children on mommy and daddy's plan?