And the kicker is that this isn't even an alternative fuel

Le Jacquelope

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This is one of those dishonest gray areas between "is" and "not is."

Ethanol-based fuel, in the US, is touted as alternative fuel, but it really isn't.

True alternative fuel is one that is not petroleum-dependent. A "10 per cent ethanol-blended fuel" mix is petroleum-dependent. Let me put it in a perfectly factual way. Even with 85% ethanol fuel blends that you hear about nowadays, a US car cannot run if there is no gasoline in the mix.

Hybrids such as our (former) Prius and our (current) Highlander and Ford Escape Hybrids, aren't alternative energy cars, either.

A truly alternative fuel is completely independent of petroleum. Like 100% biodiesel or a 100% electric car.


These faux/partial :rolleyes: alternative energy solutions are the problem. Because of these halfass jobs, we have the worst of both worlds - a rising cost of groceries, and a fuel blend that provides little or no carbon/pollution footprint reduction.

But no doubt the oil lobby and their dirty kneed sycophants will call this a failure of alternative energy, when in fact, alternative energy isn't even playing a part here: its half-assed cousin is.


http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2007/05/22/corn.html

Rising corn prices hit grocery shoppers' pocketbooks
Last Updated: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 | 12:16 PM ET
CBC News

The rising demand for corn as a source of ethanol-blended fuel is largely to blame for increasing food costs around the world, and Canada is not immune, say industry experts.

Food prices rose 10 per cent in 2006, "driven mainly by surging prices of corn, wheat and soybean oil in the second part of the year," the International Monetary Fund said in a report.

"Looking ahead, rising demand for biofuels will likely cause the prices of corn and soybean oil to rise further," the authors wrote in the report released last month.

Statistics Canada says consumers in the country paid 3.8 per cent more for food in April 2007, compared to the same month last year.

Jyoti Sahasrabudhe, an independent food industry consultant in Calgary, says consumers would be amazed to learn just how much of their food contains corn.

In a recent trip to the grocery story with CBC News, Sahasrabudhe underlined the point.

"For example, in the sushi in the California rolls, we've got hydrolyzed corn protein. Here we are looking at coiled garlic sausage and I believe we will find some modified cornstarch. It's used as a thickener to bind all the ingredients together," said Sahasrabudhe.

"Corn has so many uses throughout the food chain as feed for animals, as an ingredient on its own. I don't know that a relatively inexpensive substitute for all those functions could be found."

The flip side of course is that corn dependency is offering farmers like Alberta's Brett Stimpson a kernel of hope

"We look at it as a business opportunity … prices are strong. And you know we're just going to give it a try," Stimpson told CBC News.

Canada is not alone in feeling the effects of rising corn prices, which rose to over $4 a bushel earlier this year.
Average U.S. grocery bill up by $47

A study released in May from Iowa State University shows increased prices for ethanol have already led to bigger grocery bills for the average American — an increase of $47 US compared to July 2006.

In the United States, as elsewhere, ethanol is made from corn. But corn is also used to feed chickens, hogs and cattle, which means a rise in prices for meat, eggs and dairy.

In Mexico last year, corn tortillas, a crucial source of calories for 50 million poor people, doubled in price. The increase forced the government to introduce price controls.

In Canada at least, the fallout from increased production in corn-based ethanol is not likely to lessen any time soon. In its March budget, the federal Conservative government committed $2 billion in incentives for ethanol, made from wheat and corn, and biodiesel.

The move is based in part on wide-spread belief that ethanol-blended fuel produces cleaner emissions than regular gasoline.

But a recent Environment Canada study found no statistical difference between the greenhouse gas emissions of regular unleaded fuel and 10 per cent ethanol-blended fuel.

Environmental groups have argued that producing ethanol — whether from corn, beets, wheat or other crops — takes more energy than is derived from the product.
 
You can also run a car on 100% hydrogen.. If you aren't careful you will hindenburg, but it IS possible. I know it works on carburated vehicles with no modifications, i'm not sure about fuel injected though.
 
OscarTheGrouch said:
You can also run a car on 100% hydrogen.. If you aren't careful you will hindenburg, but it IS possible. I know it works on carburated vehicles with no modifications, i'm not sure about fuel injected though.
It's better to just go with pure electric cars and develop a better battery recycling system.

We could then build a fairly large solar farm somewhere in the desert regions - 500 sq miles is enough to power the world with current technology, which means with the current upgrades (to next-gen solar technology) going on, we could easily power the whole nation during the day plus fill up batteries around the country for the night. Then if we add a few pebble bed reactors we'd be 100% solid.
 
LovingTongue said:
It's better to just go with pure electric cars and develop a better battery recycling system.

We could then build a fairly large solar farm somewhere in the desert regions - 500 sq miles is enough to power the world with current technology, which means with the current upgrades (to next-gen solar technology) going on, we could easily power the whole nation during the day plus fill up batteries around the country for the night. Then if we add a few pebble bed reactors we'd be 100% solid.


500sq miles??? yeah.. that's feasible. Purely electric cars will never catch on. One thing that has made the car so popular is the fact that it can be more than just a mode of transportation. the thrill of driving at high speeds, the rush of accelerating fast. Until there is an electric car that can match your sports cars in power and performance, you will never get rid of them. There is something about an internal combustion engine that you cannot replace.
 
Until battery technology improves with faster charge times, and comes down in expense, fuck that...
 
marshalt said:
Until battery technology improves with faster charge times, and comes down in expense, fuck that...

Charge time, expense, range, weight. overall efficiency.
 
OscarTheGrouch said:
500sq miles??? yeah.. that's feasible. Purely electric cars will never catch on. One thing that has made the car so popular is the fact that it can be more than just a mode of transportation. the thrill of driving at high speeds, the rush of accelerating fast. Until there is an electric car that can match your sports cars in power and performance, you will never get rid of them. There is something about an internal combustion engine that you cannot replace.
If you fail to buckle your seat belt before you read this...

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php

... remember, I warned ya. :D
 
LovingTongue said:


Yeah.. how long does it take to recharge?? It costs as much as my house,gets worse range than my father's GTO or Trans-Am, and cost 4x what either of those cars did.

How much electricity does it take to charge it assuming i drive it 200 miles a week- meaning how much will my electricity bill go up? Will it recharge off my regular 110 outlet or will I have to pay an electrician to install a special 220 or greater feed?
 
OscarTheGrouch said:
Yeah.. how long does it take to recharge?? It costs as much as my house,gets worse range than my father's GTO or Trans-Am, and cost 4x what either of those cars did.

How much electricity does it take to charge it assuming i drive it 200 miles a week- meaning how much will my electricity bill go up? Will it recharge off my regular 110 outlet or will I have to pay an electrician to install a special 220 or greater feed?
http://www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/faqs.php

Battery Questions

How long does it take to recharge?

That depends on how far the battery has been discharged and what source is being used to charge the batteries. A full charge using the home system can be achieved in as little as 3.5 hours.

However, an electric car is a bit like a cell phone: it does not matter how long it takes to charge as long as a charge lasts all day. You plug it in when you get home, and unplug it when you leave in the morning. This is why the more than 200 mile range of the Tesla Roadster revolutionizes EVs: you just don't need to think about charging up at Costco, Fry's, or at work.

How do you recharge it?

Unlike EVs of the past, the Tesla Roadster has a built-in battery charging system that can basically plug into any outlet. The car ships with a particularly easy-to-use Home Charging Station that is installed in your garage by a qualified electrician. There is also an optional mobile charging kit that allows you to charge from any available electrical outlet (110V or 220V) wherever you happen to be.

How does the mobile charger unit work?

The same way the at-home unit works, with the added benefits of in-trunk portability and the flexibility to accommodate more outlet configurations and/or AC currents. It consists of two parts: an intelligent cable, and a selection of “pigtails” for different outlet sizes and voltages.

Is there an optimal time (financially) during the day for recharging?

This depends on the billing method of your particular electricity provider. In general, there is a trend towards "time of use" pricing. This means that it will be cheaper to charge at night, when the demand on the electricity grid is lowest.



Oh, and this car is silent...
 
1. I dont always like silent
2. you still cannot hold a candle to the range aspect, or the range/refuel aspect.
 
Jeez, LT, why do I let you suck me in to this stuff?

500 sq miles of desert? I dunno - it sounds too easy unless maybe I had the time to actually look over a map of the US and see that there is no 500 sq miles of desert that doesn't touch on any privately owned property. I'm too lazy by far to check but one of you c&p lovers could fill us all in on the probability thereof.

The best car, by far, is your bicycle which fulfills two purposes at once: getting the average citizen off their lazy ass and saving money. If we had the kind of devoted biking lanes that Europe boasts, riding bikes to work etc. would become more feasible provided your employer has an understanding dress code. For long trips or multiple riders however bikes don't cut it.

Build me that better mousetrap: a car that is cheap (like me :D ) and boasts some seriously economical fuel ratings. Perhaps a methane driven car? You eat beans for dinner and the car practically runs itself the next day.

One thing that I rarely see considered when the subject of alternative fuels comes up is the true price of those alternative fuels. Re: electric cars - how is that electricity generated? Nuclear power? Coal? Don't look at a small piece of the picture when you gauge these; we need to look at the true overall cost in order to make an informed decision.
 
Lavared said:
Jeez, LT, why do I let you suck me in to this stuff?

500 sq miles of desert? I dunno - it sounds too easy unless maybe I had the time to actually look over a map of the US and see that there is no 500 sq miles of desert that doesn't touch on any privately owned property. I'm too lazy by far to check but one of you c&p lovers could fill us all in on the probability thereof.

The best car, by far, is your bicycle which fulfills two purposes at once: getting the average citizen off their lazy ass and saving money. If we had the kind of devoted biking lanes that Europe boasts, riding bikes to work etc. would become more feasible provided your employer has an understanding dress code. For long trips or multiple riders however bikes don't cut it.

Build me that better mousetrap: a car that is cheap (like me :D ) and boasts some seriously economical fuel ratings. Perhaps a methane driven car? You eat beans for dinner and the car practically runs itself the next day.

One thing that I rarely see considered when the subject of alternative fuels comes up is the true price of those alternative fuels. Re: electric cars - how is that electricity generated? Nuclear power? Coal? Don't look at a small piece of the picture when you gauge these; we need to look at the true overall cost in order to make an informed decision.



Like I said earlier, you can run a modern carburated vehicle on pure hydrogen, with NO modifications- Hydrogen comes from WATER, which we have plenty of.

OR there is bio diesel, which you can refuel after filtering oil that you get from your local mickey d's or whatever- most likely for free. You can run this in any modern diesel vehicle, once again with no modifications.

Seems to me like both of these are better options, and less expensive.
 
Also,

More electric cars, mean more electricity needed, which in this country at the current time is made from mostly coal, or natural gas, so in essence this is just trading one type of pollution for another.
 
OscarTheGrouch said:
Like I said earlier, you can run a modern carburated vehicle on pure hydrogen, with NO modifications- Hydrogen comes from WATER, which we have plenty of.
How much for the hydrogen conversion on a '04 Toyota Camry and where do I stock up on fuel? Would it be out of the hose nozzle on the front side of my house or do I have to seperate, or find a place that seperates, the 1/3 that is oxygen out first?

My town of our lady of perpetual property taxes has a very efficient recycling program. I have two city-provided trash cans. One of for regular garbage and the other is for all recycling: metal, glass, paper and plastic. Because they've made it cheap and easy for the average citizen, our recycling percentage is extremely high when compared with nationwide averages.

Make it easy for the average citizen and they'll do it. Make it expensive and/or difficult and they won't.
 
Lavared said:
Jeez, LT, why do I let you suck me in to this stuff?

500 sq miles of desert? I dunno - it sounds too easy unless maybe I had the time to actually look over a map of the US and see that there is no 500 sq miles of desert that doesn't touch on any privately owned property. I'm too lazy by far to check but one of you c&p lovers could fill us all in on the probability thereof.
Nevada. :)

The best car, by far, is your bicycle which fulfills two purposes at once: getting the average citizen off their lazy ass and saving money.
How many bicycles do you know transport groceries, or soccer equipment? :)

If we had the kind of devoted biking lanes that Europe boasts, riding bikes to work etc. would become more feasible provided your employer has an understanding dress code. For long trips or multiple riders however bikes don't cut it.

Build me that better mousetrap: a car that is cheap (like me :D ) and boasts some seriously economical fuel ratings. Perhaps a methane driven car? You eat beans for dinner and the car practically runs itself the next day.

One thing that I rarely see considered when the subject of alternative fuels comes up is the true price of those alternative fuels. Re: electric cars - how is that electricity generated? Nuclear power? Coal? Don't look at a small piece of the picture when you gauge these; we need to look at the true overall cost in order to make an informed decision.
Nuclear power works for France - even Bush applauded them. :)
 
Lavared said:
How much for the hydrogen conversion on a '04 Toyota Camry and where do I stock up on fuel? Would it be out of the hose nozzle on the front side of my house or do I have to seperate, or find a place that seperates, the 1/3 that is oxygen out first?

My town of our lady of perpetual property taxes has a very efficient recycling program. I have two city-provided trash cans. One of for regular garbage and the other is for all recycling: metal, glass, paper and plastic. Because they've made it cheap and easy for the average citizen, our recycling percentage is extremely high when compared with nationwide averages.

Make it easy for the average citizen and they'll do it. Make it expensive and/or difficult and they won't.
I didn't say hydrogen was practical, I admit it is not at this point, however it is another "green" alternative, that in the future could be. I dont see why current gas pumps couldnt be converted to pumping hydrogen into a pressurized system in your car etc. I'm not on LT's side on this, I just don't think electric is all it's cracked up to be- there are many flaws that havent been addressed or worked out yet.
 
Lavared said:
How much for the hydrogen conversion on a '04 Toyota Camry and where do I stock up on fuel? Would it be out of the hose nozzle on the front side of my house or do I have to seperate, or find a place that seperates, the 1/3 that is oxygen out first?

My town of our lady of perpetual property taxes has a very efficient recycling program. I have two city-provided trash cans. One of for regular garbage and the other is for all recycling: metal, glass, paper and plastic. Because they've made it cheap and easy for the average citizen, our recycling percentage is extremely high when compared with nationwide averages.

Make it easy for the average citizen and they'll do it. Make it expensive and/or difficult and they won't.
That's called an infrastructural problem. Do you think this planet came into being with gasoline stations already placed? :)
 
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