Ancient Times

[Trinique_Fire]

Greek, Roman, that sort of thing. Everyday life, modes of transportation, food, different groups of people, criminals, barbarians, music, gods, etc.

Anyone have any information or know any good sites? I've been working on a story about a made up land, but based on Ancient Greek and Rome.

I can build off the most basic of information since this is a fiction story based on real history.

 

[only_more_so]

Greek, Roman, that sort of thing. Everyday life, modes of transportation, food, different groups of people, criminals, barbarians, music, gods, etc.

Anyone have any information or know any good sites? I've been working on a story about a made up land, but based on Ancient Greek and Rome.

I can build off the most basic of information since this is a fiction story based on real history.

This won't help, but the title reminded me of a great quote. "Let other men praise Ancient Times; I am glad I was born in these," by Ovid (43BC-17AD)

 

[Trinique_Fire]

This won't help, but the title reminded me of a great quote. "Let other men praise Ancient Times; I am glad I was born in these," by Ovid (43BC-17AD)

How wonderful! No, it is still inspirational. It's a good base for my story, actually.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Here's a couple of sites:


SPQR ONLINE


Daily Life

 

[3113]

ROME

This is a site discussing the HBO/BBC show ROME--the first season of which is on DVD. The show is not historically accurace in regards to historical characters (like Brutus) or events during the time of Caesar, but it gives a wonderful depiction of what ancient Rome might have REALLY been like. Meaning it doesn't give it that Hollywood glamour of being all white buildings and men in togas. You see the streets with their smoke and dirty and graffitti, you see the idols and unique religious rituals, you see the plays and the criminal activity, etc.

The show was very interested in exploring every level of Roman society, lowest to highest, and it gives the viewer a good idea of mundane, Roman life. I recommend it highly for that if not for history. And there are folk on these boards who are very knowledgable about all things Roman.

 

[dysphemist]

Ancient Greek World

 

[Trinique_Fire]

Misty, these are great sites. Thanks!

Were Amazons real? "Powerful women, etc etc etc..."

 

[Weird Harold]

Were Amazons real? "Powerful women, etc etc etc..."

They may well have been, but it's only relatively recently that any archeological evidence has surfaced to shake the entrenched academic position that they were mythical. It's sort of like the question of whether Troy was real or mythical until an ancient city was found where Homer described Troy as being located.

For details on Roman daily life, I'd suggest researching Pompeii and Herculenium (sp) where a lot of the details of daily life were "frozen in time" by Vesuvius.

 

[Trinique_Fire]

They may well have been, but it's only relatively recently that any archeological evidence has surfaced to shake the entrenched academic position that they were mythical. It's sort of like the question of whether Troy was real or mythical until an ancient city was found where Homer described Troy as being located.

For details on Roman daily life, I'd suggest researching Pompeii and Herculenium (sp) where a lot of the details of daily life were "frozen in time" by Vesuvius.

I suppose it would make enough sense to combine the real with the fiction.

 

[Misty_Morning]

I suppose it would make enough sense to combine the real with the fiction.

Actually there have been recent digs of acient burials I believe in the Caucus region that scholars believe to be the foundation to the mythical Amazons. I have seen several documentaries on these digs. Yes, I am a nerd when it comes to stuff like this. That's about all I ever watch...documentaries. I'll try to find the references to those films for you.OK?

 

[Trinique_Fire]

Actually there have been recent digs of acient burials I believe in the Caucus region that scholars believe to be the foundation to the mythical Amazons. I have seen several documentaries on these digs. Yes, I am a nerd when it comes to stuff like this. That's about all I ever watch...documentaries. I'll try to find the references to those films for you.OK?

Actually, nerds are hot, and so are documentaries. I'd love if you could find some refs.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Actually, nerds are hot, and so are documentaries. I'd love if you could find some refs.

Here ya go:

Link #1

Link #2

Link #3

 

[Trinique_Fire]

Could I convince one of my Ancient Times link givers to take a look at what I have so far? Keep in mind this is from when I was 16 or 17, but it is the story I'm continuing from....

 

[3113]

Were Amazons real? "Powerful women, etc etc etc..."

I've always thought that Spartan women might have been one of the foundations for the legends of the Amazons. Athenians found Spartan women shocking in how free they were, and in how much power they had in running the society. These women may not have taken up arms themselves, but they were viewed as being as militant as the men.

 

[R. Richard]

There is a service, called Inter Library Loan (ILL). If you attempt to pursue some of the good references given by other posters and your local library craps out, ask your librarian for information from ILL. You can access information from a HUGE number of libraries across the US.

 

[Trinique_Fire]

There is a service, called Inter Library Loan (ILL). If you attempt to pursue some of the good references given by other posters and your local library craps out, ask your librarian for information from ILL. You can access information from a HUGE number of libraries across the US.

*cough* If the library police find me, I'll have to pay fines. *cough*

*sheepish look*

 

[Misty_Morning]

*cough* If the library police find me, I'll have to pay fines. *cough*

*sheepish look*

*whisper* Most libraries have an amnesty day once a year where you can return books without penalty.

 

[Trinique_Fire]

*whisper* Most libraries have an amnesty day once a year where you can return books without penalty.

Ohhhhh....really? *wide eyed* I am going to have to look into this! *smothers you with kisses*

 

[R. Richard]

*cough* If the library police find me, I'll have to pay fines. *cough*

*sheepish look*

The yearly amnesty is a good thing, because, "My dog are my books!" aint gonna' fly here.

 

[SimonBrooke]

They may well have been, but it's only relatively recently that any archeological evidence has surfaced to shake the entrenched academic position that they were mythical. It's sort of like the question of whether Troy was real or mythical until an ancient city was found where Homer described Troy as being located.

For details on Roman daily life, I'd suggest researching Pompeii and Herculenium (sp) where a lot of the details of daily life were "frozen in time" by Vesuvius.

Among the Turkish tribes (who weren't in what is now Turkey at the time, but on what is now the Russian steppe) it was normal for women to be warriors alongside their men; in a lot of Turkish folk tales there are female warrior heroes to this day, despite the fact that since their conversion to Islam Turkish women have had a far more restricted and subservient role.

It seems to me quite likely that the Amazon myth comes out of Greek encounters with Turkish warrior women. There isn't (as far as I know) any Turkish story about an all-female tribe.

It isn't impossible that such a tribe could really have existed, though - the economics and social dynamics seem perfectly plausible.

 

[Misty_Morning]

Among the Turkish tribes (who weren't in what is now Turkey at the time, but on what is now the Russian steppe) it was normal for women to be warriors alongside their men; in a lot of Turkish folk tales there are female warrior heroes to this day, despite the fact that since their conversion to Islam Turkish women have had a far more restricted and subservient role.

It seems to me quite likely that the Amazon myth comes out of Greek encounters with Turkish warrior women. There isn't (as far as I know) any Turkish story about an all-female tribe.

It isn't impossible that such a tribe could really have existed, though - the economics and social dynamics seem perfectly plausible.

Actually a couple of the links I provided speak specifically about these particular areas. Not only that but there are geographical references made by a few ancient historians which jibe with these particular sites.

 

[Equinoxe]

They may well have been, but it's only relatively recently that any archeological evidence has surfaced to shake the entrenched academic position that they were mythical. It's sort of like the question of whether Troy was real or mythical until an ancient city was found where Homer described Troy as being located.

Actually there have been recent digs of acient burials I believe in the Caucus region that scholars believe to be the foundation to the mythical Amazons.

While it is certain that women participated in warfare in the ancient Russian steppe, there are some problems with that as the source of the Greek myth of the Amazons.

Firstly, different Greek writers placed the Amazons in different places, commonly in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, but sometimes in other places like Libya. There are likewise problems with the chronology of the idea of the Amazons and the archæological evidence of the steppe: Greek depictions in art and literature date (such as the occurrence of Amazons in the Epic Cycle, most particularly the Iliad and the later Aithiopis) to the Archaic period, at nearly the same time as the first references to Scythians in Assyrian records (the 8th century BCE), but predate reference to any known steppe people in Greek records by centuries. Greek colonisation of the now Russian side of the Black Sea area, didn't really take place until the 6th centuries BCE. Furthermore, the primary archæological finds relating to warrior women in the steppe are largely from a later era and are found to the east of the Pontic-Caspian, almost on the borders of China and Mongolia. Likewise, the earliest Greek depictions of Amazons are decidedly Greek in character, in Greek women's dress with Greek arms (they also contradict some written descriptions, which relate them as dressing in men's clothing) and it is only later that they begin to be represented as Oriental, in the manner of the Scythians, or for that matter Medes and Persians. Representation of the Amazons in Greek literature is again decidedly unrealistic, they are never represented as a people to be described as one describes any other people, but always possess some mythological, explanatory, or even moral purpose -- they are never treated as a people, they are treated as an idea.

Interestingly, there is no surviving non-Greco-Roman reference to any sort of Amazon tribe in the steppe. Persian records talk about various Saka groups (Saka Haumavarka, Saka Tigrakauda, etc.), Chinese records talk about the Sai and the Yeuzhi and various other Central Asian peoples, Assyrian records mention the Ishkuzai, etc. but none of them make note of an all-female warrior tribe. Admittedly, though, we have more sources from Greek and Roman authors on the peoples of the steppe. There is an interesting suggestion in Herodotus's Histories, though; he claims that the Scythians were familiar with the Amazons and interacted with them -- if we assume he isn't making this up (which is a difficult assumption to make), it does suggest something.

Ultimately, however, ignoring the Amazon question, the discovery of tombs such as that of Ice Maiden at Pazyryk confirm statements found in ancient authors about steppe peoples and the role of women in their culture. Herodotus talks about the role of women amongst the Sauromatae (according to him, the descendants of the Scythians and the Amazons) and how they participate in warfare; likewise, he talks about the Queen of Massagetae, Tomyris, who (he says) defeated and killed the Persian King Cyrus the Great. If we trust ancient writers, we should expect to find evidence of warrior women in the Russian steppe, with or without Amazons.

Nevertheless, there are some correspondences which are intriguing and certain ideas expressed by Ancient Greek writers suggest something more to the idea of Amazons, but it's still quite early to comment with much specificity on the historicity of Amazons -- and the current evidence does not match especially well with the mythology.


Since Troy was referenced, interestingly, the question of the historicity of the Amazons actually has implications on the historicity of the Iliad (and the Epic Cycle in general): if the Amazons were based on actual steppe peoples, then their inclusion in the Iliad, as well as the Aithiopis, is anachronistic.

It seems to me quite likely that the Amazon myth comes out of Greek encounters with Turkish warrior women. There isn't (as far as I know) any Turkish story about an all-female tribe.

At the point in history in which the Amazons reportedly lived, it wouldn't really be proper to speak of Turkic groups. The Turkic expansion appears to have occurred later in history further east, perhaps beginning as early as the Xiong Nu in the 3rd century BCE, but in any case the first undoubtedly Turkic state (that of the Gökturks) doesn't occur until the mid-6th century.

Steppe peoples corresponding to the Archaic and Classical periods in Greece are considered to be Scythian, with various related groups like the Sarmatians and the Massagetae. While there is very little evidence one way or another, the Scythian languages are generally thought to be Iranian. Indeed, Ossetian, for example, is presumably the sole living descendant of the Alan language, which was Sarmatian (although some ancient authors considered the Alans to be Massagetae, but these distinctions between steppe peoples of the era are quite nebulous).

 

[cantdog]

Were Amazons real? "Powerful women, etc etc etc..."

Check out the histories of the African empire of Mwene Mutapa. That's the one with the stone zimbabwes which so amazed the Portuguese and the later Europeans who came to the Zambezi area. The Monomatapa actually does seem, in the fifteenth century, to have had a female bodyguard. They were a hundred strong, and purportedly were converted to Christianity by a Jesuit in 1500. The court of the Kabakas of Buganda (nineteenth century) featured "Amazon" guards as well. But the original story of the Amazons, an entire society of women, does seem to be without factual parallels, so far.

The Amazon River got its name because of travellers' tales that such a society lived deep in the interior along it (Francisco de Orellana had collected the rumor, which said they were a rich realm, very powerful, and so on). Immediately people connected the story with the Amazons of classical myth, but no such society was discovered there.