An interesting argument-

[BiBunny]

Honestly, there are just tons of people in this world who have NO BUSINESS having children.

So many people get married, have kids, whatever because they think it's what they're "supposed" to do. But you know what? It's ok to choose not to mate for life. It's ok to not have kids. The entire species isn't in danger of dying out just because you choose not to reproduce.

The ONLY reason you should have kids is that you can't imagine your life without them, that you want them more than anything in the entire world and are willing to sacrifice your own independence and selfishness for them because they're what you truly want. I know I'm too independent and selfish to have children, hence why I'm never going to have them.

And you know what? That's ok. Too bad more people don't realize that.

I also think that the only reason you should ever get married is that you can't possibly imagine what your life would be like if you couldn't wake up next to that person every day for the rest of your life, but let's face it: most people don't see it that way. *Shrug*

 

[lilly85]

.............

 

[SweetGigi]

Honestly, there are just tons of people in this world who have NO BUSINESS having children.

So many people get married, have kids, whatever because they think it's what they're "supposed" to do. But you know what? It's ok to choose not to mate for life. It's ok to not have kids. The entire species isn't in danger of dying out just because you choose not to reproduce.

The ONLY reason you should have kids is that you can't imagine your life without them, that you want them more than anything in the entire world and are willing to sacrifice your own independence and selfishness for them because they're what you truly want. I know I'm too independent and selfish to have children, hence why I'm never going to have them.

And you know what? That's ok. Too bad more people don't realize that.

I also think that the only reason you should ever get married is that you can't possibly imagine what your life would be like if you couldn't wake up next to that person every day for the rest of your life, but let's face it: most people don't see it that way. *Shrug*

Wow, I actually couldn't agree more with this statement. Kudos to you, Bunny.

I am on of those who can't imagine my life without children or a mate. When the time comes, I will be more than willing to make the sacrifices necessary to not only care for my kids, but for my husband as well. No amount of reckless abandon is worth the well being of a wonderful marriage and family in my opinion.

 

[Primalex]

I believe the loss of a mother is more likely to cause problems for a child. This is, in part, because it is so rare and less accepted by society in general. Our society still sees mothers as nurturers. All of this makes it harder for the child to understand that sort of abandonment.

Whereas, father's have a long history of child and mate abandonment. Statics show many risk factors in these cases. So, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's ideal for the father to be out of a child's life. That depends on the type of person the father is with his kids. I just believe it's somewhat easier for a child to cope with emotionally and socially.

I wonder how much of this opinion is actually due to the conditioning you mentioned. "Our society" includes yourself, too. Is it easier for a child to cope with it emotionally and socially because you think so, because your conditioning tells you that the mother is the nurturer? Or because of well-founded information?

I'm especially curious, as there was a discussion on TV yesterday - a lesbian couple with a friend being the sperm donor and the kid was finally old enough to want to know who/where the father is. Is a lesbian couple better or worse than a hetero couple or better or worse than a gay couple for raising a kid? Is a lesbian couple better than a single mom or a single dad?

In my opinion, kids do very well, it's the parents who cause the problems - because if they worry, the kids will feel that something is wrong. If the mother thinks her situation is wrong, because a father is not around, then the kid will do so, too.

 

[Primalex]

The entire species isn't in danger of dying out just because you choose not to reproduce.

Well, in a lot of countries this is actually a problem. Russia declared 2007 as the "year of the child", because the average birth rate is 1,3, but there it would have to be 2,1 in order to sustain overall population. Now every year they lose 700k citizens, the population went down from 150 million to 143 million the last few years. The same is true for Germany and a lot of other industrialized countries. So while the human species itself is not yet in danger, several cultures are.

Edit:
"How do we prevent that children get bad parents? We don't procreate any longer." is just the wrong attitude. We should ask, how we turn bad parents into good ones. And no, I don't think it's a matter of the genes, but it is a matter of education and the lifestyle of our society.

 

[BiBunny]

Well, in a lot of countries this is actually a problem. Russia declared 2007 as the "year of the child", because the average birth rate is 1,3, but there it would have to be 2,1 in order to sustain overall population. Now every year they lose 700k citizens, the population went down from 150 million to 143 million the last few years. The same is true for Germany and a lot of other industrialized countries. So while the human species itself is not yet in danger, several cultures are.

Countries, perhaps. But all of civilization as we know it won't collapse just because I choose not to have kids. For every one person like me who's made a real, thoughtful decision not to have children, there are probably a hundred who are just popping them out willy-nilly. And the unfortunate truth is that people who LEAST need to have kids are the ones having the MOST of them. *Sigh*

Edit:
"How do we prevent that children get bad parents? We don't procreate any longer." is just the wrong attitude. We should ask, how we turn bad parents into good ones. And no, I don't think it's a matter of the genes, but it is a matter of education and the lifestyle of our society.

That's actually not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that having kids should be a privilege, not a right. It should be something that you put a lot of thought into, something that should be taken very seriously, not just, "Oh, well, I'm too stupid to use birth control, and now I'm pregnant. Guess I'll dump this kid off on anybody who'll keep it for me while I go out and continue living the life I lived before I got pregnant."

 

[the_pet]

I was talking to a classmate today who's currently fighting over custody for his kid (the mom is *nuts*)
and he was talking about his frustration about fighting over custody of his kid with the mother
And he said a quote that I will never forget -"If you put a dollar in a soda machine and the machine gives you a soda; does the soda belong to you or the machine?"

....there's nothing interesting about the analogy, tell him to wear a fucking rubber next time

...it irks the fuck out of me to hear people complaining about this kind of shit when "they" were having unprotected sex in the first fucking place


pet

p.s. she's crazy and he's firing away irresponsibly ~ no wonder it's going to shit

 

[FurryFury]

Guess I should scrape "perfect" from my vocabulary. After all chances are my idea of perfection is not the same as yours.
True, children should not be considered property. But alas it is not going to stop any time soon ...



I can relate to that. Except my parents never divorced and never will. No fighting or drama either here. Just cold resentment and total distaste from one end and total oblivion on the other, if not that I was (and they still try ) made to be the ambassador, and the recipient of their displeasure with the other party.

But as Netzach pointed out, even intact family children have their own damage. Believing in Karma and reincarnation, I see our struggles as the lesson we are meant to learn this life, unresolved issues from the previous one.

It was not perfect and I was not happy. I'll put up the happy face and go about. But I've learned a lot from this. And I am trying to apply what I have learned in my life.

Still I know I am not doing such a great job with my own kids, although I am doing my best. For that, I'll have a stash of cash labeled "children mental health fund"

I personally think a bad parent is often less damaging than one who is apathetic.

*nods*

Great idea on the Mental Health Fund!

*HUG*

I'm sure you are a great parent though!

 

[FurryFury]

Honestly, there are just tons of people in this world who have NO BUSINESS having children.

So many people get married, have kids, whatever because they think it's what they're "supposed" to do. But you know what? It's ok to choose not to mate for life. It's ok to not have kids. The entire species isn't in danger of dying out just because you choose not to reproduce.

The ONLY reason you should have kids is that you can't imagine your life without them, that you want them more than anything in the entire world and are willing to sacrifice your own independence and selfishness for them because they're what you truly want. I know I'm too independent and selfish to have children, hence why I'm never going to have them.

And you know what? That's ok. Too bad more people don't realize that.

I also think that the only reason you should ever get married is that you can't possibly imagine what your life would be like if you couldn't wake up next to that person every day for the rest of your life, but let's face it: most people don't see it that way. *Shrug*

I tend to agree with you.

I don't know WTF happened with me. I didn't believe in love, want to get married or have kids, period.

Now I've been married twice and had two kids.

My life is far better than I had imagined and dreamed of though, the first marriage was hell.

I wouldn't trade my kids for anything, though, if I had it to do all over again, I'd chose NOT to marry my first husband.

I know all that is contradictory.

I do agree some people shouldn't marry or have kids. If they are not willing to give marriage and kids their all unselfishly.

Sadly, I know some truly terrible parents.

 

[FurryFury]

I can honestly say that right now... if I were to get pregnant, wasn't with the father, and he was stable and safe and wanted the kid....I'd probably give it to him. I'm just now beginning to be able to care for myself again, let alone a child...and I'd want my child to have the best life it could even if it meant I wasn't a part of it.

Funny thing is, I consider myself to be crazy, the government says I'm crazy(bipolar)...but no one else thinks I am. Why?

Cause I'm one of those crazy people who stays on their damn meds.

Good for you, staying on your meds!

I'd never give up my kids though. Never. Except yanno when they go off to college and make their own lives.

 

[FurryFury]

I wonder how much of this opinion is actually due to the conditioning you mentioned. "Our society" includes yourself, too. Is it easier for a child to cope with it emotionally and socially because you think so, because your conditioning tells you that the mother is the nurturer? Or because of well-founded information?

I'm especially curious, as there was a discussion on TV yesterday - a lesbian couple with a friend being the sperm donor and the kid was finally old enough to want to know who/where the father is. Is a lesbian couple better or worse than a hetero couple or better or worse than a gay couple for raising a kid? Is a lesbian couple better than a single mom or a single dad?

In my opinion, kids do very well, it's the parents who cause the problems - because if they worry, the kids will feel that something is wrong. If the mother thinks her situation is wrong, because a father is not around, then the kid will do so, too.

*nods*

I only speak from my experiences and the research I've seen.

I have no problem with gay couples raising kids.

However, how can an adult not feel their feelings, which yes, will resonated by the child? I beat myself up a lot, over this issue, but dayum, how do you not feel what you feel?

Sure you can work on it. I am.

 

[FurryFury]

Wow, I actually couldn't agree more with this statement. Kudos to you, Bunny.

I am on of those who can't imagine my life without children or a mate. When the time comes, I will be more than willing to make the sacrifices necessary to not only care for my kids, but for my husband as well. No amount of reckless abandon is worth the well being of a wonderful marriage and family in my opinion.

That's great!

Just don't forget to see to your own well being at the same time. So many women I know do that and often become bitter sooner or later. Remember the very true saying, "If you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of others well."

 

[FurryFury]

Well, in a lot of countries this is actually a problem. Russia declared 2007 as the "year of the child", because the average birth rate is 1,3, but there it would have to be 2,1 in order to sustain overall population. Now every year they lose 700k citizens, the population went down from 150 million to 143 million the last few years. The same is true for Germany and a lot of other industrialized countries. So while the human species itself is not yet in danger, several cultures are.

Edit:
"How do we prevent that children get bad parents? We don't procreate any longer." is just the wrong attitude. We should ask, how we turn bad parents into good ones. And no, I don't think it's a matter of the genes, but it is a matter of education and the lifestyle of our society.

Well, I think there are plenty of places that more than make up for the Russian situation.

However, I agree that we need more training in how to raise kids, keep a relationship together, deal with stress and grieve losses, just to name a few.

 

[FurryFury]

Countries, perhaps. But all of civilization as we know it won't collapse just because I choose not to have kids. For every one person like me who's made a real, thoughtful decision not to have children, there are probably a hundred who are just popping them out willy-nilly. And the unfortunate truth is that people who LEAST need to have kids are the ones having the MOST of them. *Sigh*



That's actually not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that having kids should be a privilege, not a right. It should be something that you put a lot of thought into, something that should be taken very seriously, not just, "Oh, well, I'm too stupid to use birth control, and now I'm pregnant. Guess I'll dump this kid off on anybody who'll keep it for me while I go out and continue living the life I lived before I got pregnant."

I think you are also saying that many people just <think> they should have kids and be married. For many those things are inadvisable and they certainly should not be done on auto pilot. Yes?

 

[FurryFury]

....there's nothing interesting about the analogy, tell him to wear a fucking rubber next time

...it irks the fuck out of me to hear people complaining about this kind of shit when "they" were having unprotected sex in the first fucking place


pet

p.s. she's crazy and he's firing away irresponsibly ~ no wonder it's going to shit

GREAT post! You win the roses prize!

 

[BiBunny]

I think you are also saying that many people just <think> they should have kids and be married. For many those things are inadvisable and they certainly should not be done on auto pilot. Yes?

Yes, thank you. My brain-to-keyboard filter isn't working too well today.

 

[FurryFury]

Yes, thank you. My brain-to-keyboard filter isn't working too well today.

It's my pleasure to help!

 

[BeachGurl2]

Actually, from what I've been reading, in many parts of the country, the default has become joint custody, regardless of whether it's really best for the kid. It's a complicated subject, but I'll just say that I don't think the bias against dads is as prevalent as it once was.

This is true in AZ. It's automatic joint custody unless one parent can prove that the other parent is truly unfit. My ex is a severe narcissist - he's mean and angry and seriously emotionally abusive. Bratgirl, who is now 13 and going into high school, doesn't want to visit him at all, but the court FORCES her to visit him, even after interviewing her. And they have threatened me with punishment if she refuses. My 20yo hasn't spent a night in his house since I left 5 years ago and refuses to visit except on very rare occasions. The court refuses to talk to her because she is now over 18 and has no stake in the outcome, according to the court. In addition to that, after 5 months of being unemployed (no skilled jobs to be had) in the rural area where we used to live, I moved 80 miles away for a job. The court now makes me give him back 50% of the child support he pays to cover his travel expenses to meet me halfway on his visitation weekends. In this area, the courts have gone very far to the side of making sure they don't favor the mother by actually giving the father virtually anything he requests, no matter the evidence against it.

 

[ltnsfr007]

This is true in AZ. It's automatic joint custody unless one parent can prove that the other parent is truly unfit. My ex is a severe narcissist - he's mean and angry and seriously emotionally abusive. Bratgirl, who is now 13 and going into high school, doesn't want to visit him at all, but the court FORCES her to visit him, even after interviewing her. And they have threatened me with punishment if she refuses. My 20yo hasn't spent a night in his house since I left 5 years ago and refuses to visit except on very rare occasions. The court refuses to talk to her because she is now over 18 and has no stake in the outcome, according to the court. In addition to that, after 5 months of being unemployed (no skilled jobs to be had) in the rural area where we used to live, I moved 80 miles away for a job. The court now makes me give him back 50% of the child support he pays to cover his travel expenses to meet me halfway on his visitation weekends. In this area, the courts have gone very far to the side of making sure they don't favor the mother by actually giving the father virtually anything he requests, no matter the evidence against it.

Sorry to hear BG

CA. is a very 50/50 state

 

[Bi_Kitty]

From a "kid's" point of view because I have BTDT. My folks divorced when I was either 2 or 3 years old. My brother (who's 2 years younger than me) and I was young enough that the divorce itself didn't affect us. We first lived with my mom. But after financial difficulties, mom knew it would be best if we went to live with dad; she gave full custody to my dad but they agreed that we would be able to stay every other weekend with mom. We lived with dad until I was 12, I think.

I was unhappy and wanted to live with my mom. So, my mom started a custody case against my father when I was 12. The lawyer told mom that I was of age to decide where I wanted to live. After a year of getting a case against my dad (not going into the details about that, no one needs to know them), we went to court. The judge decide joint custody so no one would be subjected to child support but we were to live mainly with mom.

My brother and I had the choose to go visit dad whenever we wanted to. For the first month or two, we both went ever other weekend. After the that my brother would go visit my dad on the weekends and I would stay at mom's. I would spend about an hour when mom and I went to drop my brother off on Friday afternoons and an hour when we picked him up on Sundays.

Now that I'm in college, the only time I go visit my dad is one afternoon for an hour or so when I go home (my mom's).


**********************************************************
Parents may think things won't bother the kids, but it does! I have issues and react to different things because of what happened to me when I was a child. Although, I'm not one of those type of people who use what happened to them as a child as a crutch. Yes, I might not have had the happiest childhood but it made me who I am.

 

[SubKekiLee]

Countries, perhaps. But all of civilization as we know it won't collapse just because I choose not to have kids. For every one person like me who's made a real, thoughtful decision not to have children, there are probably a hundred who are just popping them out willy-nilly. And the unfortunate truth is that people who LEAST need to have kids are the ones having the MOST of them. *Sigh*
That's actually not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that having kids should be a privilege, not a right. It should be something that you put a lot of thought into, something that should be taken very seriously, not just, "Oh, well, I'm too stupid to use birth control, and now I'm pregnant. Guess I'll dump this kid off on anybody who'll keep it for me while I go out and continue living the life I lived before I got pregnant."

There are so many WOMEN out there that arent as smart as you Bunny and choose to do exactly as you said get pregnant and throw the baby off on a family member or another child or whomever will take care of it.. I commend you for not making that mistake, and being a smart woman and choosing to be independant beautiful woman with choices

Bad analogy...a child is a gift, not a possession. Parents need to love their children more than they despise their ex-spouse. I know that there are times that one parent IS detrimental to the child and that needs to be addressed, but not to the extreme that it is pulled in courts.

A child is a gift, I am the mother of 3 beautiful children but when I divorced I wasnt trying to be a BITCH or take him for everything he was worth in fact when I walked out cause he was an abuser I walked out with a backpack and my 3 kids... 4 years later when I tracked him down in a drug, slum laden apartment to serve him divorce papers he came back to court with a attorney who thought he was gonna ask for full custody and support and insurance I had no choice but dig up skeletons and show the court he hadnt been around and had been an abuser.. It isnt what I wanted.. the judge clearly asked him what makes you think Id take the babies away from thier mom the only thing they have known for 4 years and give them to you. Sir Ill give you enough rope to hang yourself... Show me you love your children.. 2.5 years later I recieved SOLE custody of the children cause he HUNG himself... So it isnt all of us that make the worse of things in court

My first husband hid is craziness very well for the first year we were married... so sometimes .. yeah..people dont know that the other person is nuts. Also, sometimes the divorce/child custody proceedings make a person bitter and insane, they dont see their kids as kids anymore but just one more thing they can take from their ex.

I agree with you Fi... My Ex tried this and now this one is trying ( as you well know) but it wont happen one thing I will tell you when I gave birth to these children I gave up my life as I knew it and it is my duty to be there for them and be thier mother.. They are my lifes blood and air I breathe. When divorces happen people lose thier sanity cause they want to hurt the one they used to love as a last resort..

I was talking to a classmate today who's currently fighting over custody for his kid (the mom is *nuts*)
and he was talking about his frustration about fighting over custody of his kid with the mother
And he said a quote that I will never forget -"If you put a dollar in a soda machine and the machine gives you a soda; does the soda belong to you or the machine?"

I do not equate children to a soda machine, but when it comes to children they deserve to be with both parents even if both parents cannot live in the same household.. put aside your hatered for one another and show the children you love them and show them they are your world.. I promise you... it will be worth it in the long run..

 

[BeachGurl2]

I do not equate children to a soda machine, but when it comes to children they deserve to be with both parents even if both parents cannot live in the same household.. put aside your hatered for one another and show the children you love them and show them they are your world.. I promise you... it will be worth it in the long run..

Yes, they deserve to have a relationship with both parents - IF - both parents are emotionally healthy. Being forced to spend time with an emotionally unhealthy parent is never good for any child.

There was some discussion earlier in this thread about which people are the best option for raising children. My opinion - and yes, it's an educated one - is that whatever mentally/emotionally HEALTHY adult(s) the child has in his/her life are the BEST people to raise him/her. If that means a single parent or a gay couple or a group of people who aren't biologically linked to him/her, then that's what it means.

 

[FurryFury]

This is true in AZ. It's automatic joint custody unless one parent can prove that the other parent is truly unfit. My ex is a severe narcissist - he's mean and angry and seriously emotionally abusive. Bratgirl, who is now 13 and going into high school, doesn't want to visit him at all, but the court FORCES her to visit him, even after interviewing her. And they have threatened me with punishment if she refuses. My 20yo hasn't spent a night in his house since I left 5 years ago and refuses to visit except on very rare occasions. The court refuses to talk to her because she is now over 18 and has no stake in the outcome, according to the court. In addition to that, after 5 months of being unemployed (no skilled jobs to be had) in the rural area where we used to live, I moved 80 miles away for a job. The court now makes me give him back 50% of the child support he pays to cover his travel expenses to meet me halfway on his visitation weekends. In this area, the courts have gone very far to the side of making sure they don't favor the mother by actually giving the father virtually anything he requests, no matter the evidence against it.

As I teen I do not believe a child should be forced to visit.

Your whole post is just horribly frightening.

I'm so sorry you and your kids have had to put with all this and will continue to for some time.

The courts are clearly not doing what is best in this case and I'm sure, many, many others.

I expect when the data comes in about how damaging joint custody really is for the kids, there will be a shift in court policies. I hope so. The sooner the better.

 

[FurryFury]

From a "kid's" point of view because I have BTDT. My folks divorced when I was either 2 or 3 years old. My brother (who's 2 years younger than me) and I was young enough that the divorce itself didn't affect us. We first lived with my mom. But after financial difficulties, mom knew it would be best if we went to live with dad; she gave full custody to my dad but they agreed that we would be able to stay every other weekend with mom. We lived with dad until I was 12, I think.

I was unhappy and wanted to live with my mom. So, my mom started a custody case against my father when I was 12. The lawyer told mom that I was of age to decide where I wanted to live. After a year of getting a case against my dad (not going into the details about that, no one needs to know them), we went to court. The judge decide joint custody so no one would be subjected to child support but we were to live mainly with mom.

My brother and I had the choose to go visit dad whenever we wanted to. For the first month or two, we both went ever other weekend. After the that my brother would go visit my dad on the weekends and I would stay at mom's. I would spend about an hour when mom and I went to drop my brother off on Friday afternoons and an hour when we picked him up on Sundays.

Now that I'm in college, the only time I go visit my dad is one afternoon for an hour or so when I go home (my mom's).


**********************************************************
Parents may think things won't bother the kids, but it does! I have issues and react to different things because of what happened to me when I was a child. Although, I'm not one of those type of people who use what happened to them as a child as a crutch. Yes, I might not have had the happiest childhood but it made me who I am.

*HUG*

It has made my child stronger for sure but I still wish I could have prevent all the crap that happened to her. It has also made her far, far less likely to ever trust anyone or open up to them in a relationship.

As a child, who went through some serious shit, I have to say I am stronger too. I just wasn't as self aware as I would have liked to have been so I could prevent myself from making subconscious choices that weren't good for me. Again, I wish I could have prevented all that.

Like you though, I'm not making excuses. I'm just trying to do better. I think I've made some progress through the years. I sure hope so!

 

[FurryFury]

There are so many WOMEN out there that arent as smart as you Bunny and choose to do exactly as you said get pregnant and throw the baby off on a family member or another child or whomever will take care of it.. I commend you for not making that mistake, and being a smart woman and choosing to be independant beautiful woman with choices


A child is a gift, I am the mother of 3 beautiful children but when I divorced I wasnt trying to be a BITCH or take him for everything he was worth in fact when I walked out cause he was an abuser I walked out with a backpack and my 3 kids... 4 years later when I tracked him down in a drug, slum laden apartment to serve him divorce papers he came back to court with a attorney who thought he was gonna ask for full custody and support and insurance I had no choice but dig up skeletons and show the court he hadnt been around and had been an abuser.. It isnt what I wanted.. the judge clearly asked him what makes you think Id take the babies away from thier mom the only thing they have known for 4 years and give them to you. Sir Ill give you enough rope to hang yourself... Show me you love your children.. 2.5 years later I recieved SOLE custody of the children cause he HUNG himself... So it isnt all of us that make the worse of things in court



I agree with you Fi... My Ex tried this and now this one is trying ( as you well know) but it wont happen one thing I will tell you when I gave birth to these children I gave up my life as I knew it and it is my duty to be there for them and be thier mother.. They are my lifes blood and air I breathe. When divorces happen people lose thier sanity cause they want to hurt the one they used to love as a last resort..



I do not equate children to a soda machine, but when it comes to children they deserve to be with both parents even if both parents cannot live in the same household.. put aside your hatered for one another and show the children you love them and show them they are your world.. I promise you... it will be worth it in the long run..

Wow, you've been through so much and you have a great attitude about it.

*HUG*