An ethics question

[Prof Bill]

I submit this because I need advice. It is long because it seems to me that this is a complicated issue.

Over the course of my 15 or so years "in the scene," I have been blessed with some wonderful experiences. Naturally, these experiences involved my submissives. While what we did certainly qualified as "BDSM," what we really practiced was extreme sensualism based on a D/s relationship. I taught my subs that we were partners in pleasure and that we each needed the other in order to be complete and successful in our search.

Some of these relationships were long distance ones, some were quite close--but all were wonderful and enjoyable and, when we parted, we did so in friendship and with gratitude. We also parted with an understanding that we had reached the end. We were not going to see each other "to have one for old time's sake." Finality was sought and found by both of us.

One of the assignments I frequently gave them was to write to me. They were to write about what we had just done, or what they would like to do, or what they understood I wanted to do, or what we had seen others do. Most of the writings are based on real experiences although one or two were pure fantasy.

Years later, I still have those assignments. I just re-read them. To my mind, they are exceptional descriptions of the way I think a D/s relationship should be (I know, I sound as if I'm without any humility, but I was trained by some of the old-timers and I've tried to follow their teachings, and that leads me to hope that I'm correct in my assessment). They are also highly erotic--at least in my opinion.

I'm wondering if I should publish them on Literotica. I would, naturally enough, make sure all identifers were removed, I would run them through spell checks and grammar checks and so on, and I would try to group them according to theme (e.g., humiliation, pain, pure submission, exploration, excitement, etc.).

I am considering this because I really believe they would be helpful to new and/or exploring submissives. To my mind, they represent submission at its most complete, and none of them are fictional--these ladies walked their talk.

But despite my nobel intentions <G> I wonder if it is ethcical. I know where two of them are now and I could ask them for permission, but I do not know where the others are. Final has been final.

I have to travel for the next few days so there is plenty of time for you to gather your thoughts together and offer me advice. I thank you in advance for whatever your best instincts are.

Yours in leather,

Professor Bill

 

[Evil_Geoff]

I'm wondering if I should publish them on Literotica. I would, naturally enough, make sure all identifers were removed, I would run them through spell checks and grammar checks and so on, and I would try to group them according to theme (e.g., humiliation, pain, pure submission, exploration, excitement, etc.).

The short answer? Not without consent and not without attributing the source.

If you "sanitize" the assignments to remove all identifying information and publish them without assigning proper credit to the author, you are stealing their material, and in my opinion that would be highly unethical.

But what do I know? I am not an intellectual property attorney, nor do I play one on the internet. *grin* I may be incorrect in my assessment.

YIK,
- Geoff

 

[incubus'_sub]

I think Geoff is right. It's unethical & your shouldn't do it. These stories are not yours to publish or to change in any way. Sorry.

 

[Marquis]

I happen to disagree.

I would love to see these assignments and I think the BDSM community can always use more positive examples.

I would hesitate if you had any particular reason to believe that any of these women wouldn't want their assignments shared anonymously, but I certainly doubt that their intellectual property rights would be the reason for their reservations.

You know better than anyone else how they would feel about this, and I think that is the most important thing to take into consideration.

Incidentally, I wouldn't think twice about doing this and I wouldn't even ask their permission, because I would think these assignments were a gift for you to do with what you will. I would be surprised if the law saw it differently.

 

[culloden]

I work in publishing. It would be unethical to publish these letters, as much fun as it would be to read them. It might even be illegal to the point of exposing you to a cilvil suit. Get permission.

The publisher where I've worked for the last decade has spent probably hundreds of thousands of dollars tracking down former authors simply to get additional permissions to publish the authors' works electronically. This is after having received permssion to publish and republish the original works in magazines and books - the only difference was using electronic media.

Since your authors never gave you permission to publish anywhere, I think you'd be on thin ice.

 

[Betticus]

I happen to disagree.

I would love to see these assignments and I think the BDSM community can always use more positive examples.

I would hesitate if you had any particular reason to believe that any of these women wouldn't want their assignments shared anonymously, but I certainly doubt that their intellectual property rights would be the reason for their reservations.

You know better than anyone else how they would feel about this, and I think that is the most important thing to take into consideration.

Incidentally, I wouldn't think twice about doing this and I wouldn't even ask their permission, because I would think these assignments were a gift for you to do with what you will. I would be surprised if the law saw it differently.

I'm with Mr. Marquis on this one. If you are not seeking remuneration and/or any kind of profit and if you mask the identities of the women in these stories putting them up on Lit shouldn't be a problem.

Given that, you could also keep this material to yourself and instead just engage us all in some lively and interesting conversation.

I think that perhaps your experience and insight would be even more valuable to the BDSM community than the stories and fantasies that you have possession of.

You are real where the stories you have stored can't express their own humanity in a forum with a give and take overture like we all have her on lit.

Just give us who you are and let that speak for you. I'm sure that we could all grow from your own experience and insight.

 

[Marquis]

I work in publishing. It would be unethical to publish these letters, as much fun as it would be to read them. It might even be illegal to the point of exposing you to a cilvil suit. Get permission.

The publisher where I've worked for the last decade has spent probably hundreds of thousands of dollars tracking down former authors simply to get additional permissions to publish the authors' works electronically. This is after having received permssion to publish and republish the original works in magazines and books - the only difference was using electronic media.

Since your authors never gave you permission to publish anywhere, I think you'd be on thin ice.

I don't think this situation is analogous, but I will do some research and get back to you on it.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

----DOUBLE POST---------- oops

 

[VelvetDarkness]

You could maybe get around it with some kind of disclaimer. Explain that these stories were gifts to you from subs who lived them and then ask that anyone who objects to them being posted is free to contact you and request their particular experience be withdrawn.

If you have no reasonable way to ask permission and the stories were gifts, as long as you make a point of saying that it's not your work and invite them to contact you, nobody should have much of a problem with it. I certainly wouldn't. I'd take Marquis' view that the story was a gift and therefore effectively not thw sub's anymore anyway.

I for one would be deeply flattered if stumbled across a public posting like that - providing you had acknowledged that it was the work of another.

 

[culloden]

I don't think this situation is analogous, but I will do some research and get back to you on it.

It's not exactly analogous, and I should modify my original statement. If the op rewrites the letters and masks the identities, that would be no different ethically than say, James Herriot (Alf White, really) writing his Yorkshire memoirs.

As to the legalities, well, whether or not there was money in it may affect the tort possibilities. And in fact, Herriot was sued by his former partner and paid out substantial money. But that's UK law, not US.

Remember too, that anyone can sue anybody else for anything. And if you're the defendant, even if you win, you've lost.

Caution is wise.

 

[JMohegan]

One of the assignments I frequently gave them was to write to me. They were to write about what we had just done, or what they would like to do, or what they understood I wanted to do, or what we had seen others do. Most of the writings are based on real experiences although one or two were pure fantasy.

The law does not define ethical boundaries for me, so I will respond to your "ethics question" without addressing legality.

What you are proposing to do is to make public detailed descriptions of the most intimate experiences, thoughts, and fantasies of these women's lives - without obtaining their explicit permission to do so.

To me, this seems comparable to the release of nude or sexually provocative photographs or videos with the face blurred to conceal the subject's identity. In this case, however, you would also be revealing emotions of the most intimate & personal kind, therefore making the violation of privacy even more intense.

If you were a master to women who gave themselves to you as property, then you would have a right to publish these pieces.

However, under any other circumstances publication would be an outrageous violation of privacy, and clearly wrong by my personal ethical standards.

I taught my subs that we were partners in pleasure and that we each needed the other in order to be complete and successful in our search.

Just out of curiosity.... did you have any conversations about trust? How do you define that word, and do you think personal privacy has anything to do with it?

 

[m wisdom]

As with anything that isn't black and white the question that you need to ask is not if it's unethical or not, but rather how ethical/unethical it is and what your own personal standards are.

I would consider it highly unethical to post any detailed information about other people without their consent. Even if you were in a TPE relationship I would find it unethical to post information after that relationship had ended, any consent you had ended when the relationship ended (unless otherwise specified ).

If you are unsure if something is ethical or not there will definitely be people that think it is unethical, and since you asked the question in the first place.....

 

[chris9]

That's a question I would answer by imagining how the women involved would feel. Just assume that they read literotica. If they stumbled across their own writing, submitted by you, would they feel flattered (like VelvetDarkness said she would be) or would they feel you exposed them publicly, did not respect their privacy and the trust they put in you by giving you these writings?
Personally I would feel hurt by reading my writings on the internet that to me are/were very deep and personal and that I had shared with the partner I shared my life with for a while. I would have written them for him, not for the internet public.

 

[myinnerslut]

Personally I would feel hurt by reading my writings on the internet that to me are/were very deep and personal and that I had shared with the partner I shared my life with for a while. I would have written them for him, not for the internet public.

i agree. i would see this as a hige betrayal of trust. it would make me question my relationships from that point foward. my advice? get the approval and consent of the two women you can find and leave it at that. and in the case that the women say no, then abide by thier wishes.

 

[blue kat]

Aside from trust issues, I'd say not to do it unless you get written permission from the original authors. You feel that they're good enough to be published. If the original authors agree with you, then they have the right to decide if they want to sell them or give them away. Even if the author isn't ready to publish now, they may be in the future and they will not be able to because they were already published. If you contact the subs and if they agree, then go for it, but going behind their backs and doing it anyway is wrong.

 

[catalina_francisco]

dreaded double post!!!

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I would give it a miss for various reasons apart from just the ethical one. I know we learn a lot through sharing, but I also think there is too much emphasis at times put on trying to put out there what is ´good D/s´and ´who is doing it right´. All the reading in the world will not teach as much as one RL hands on experience can, especially when it needs to be remembered each person is an individual just as is each relationship different. The writings were not created for the purpose of your publicly puiblishing them, for profit or not, to educate or promote...they were created in trust as per your instructions, for your eyes only (I assume) in what hopefully was a trustworthy relationship...to decide now you want to change the purpose is not ethical or indicative of trust, especially in terms of D/s, to me. Just my opinion, but sure wouldn´t want to find out by accident that something I wrote in confidence and under instruction was now being passed around publicly under the recipients (or even my own) name for all to see and interpret how they choose. Even anonymously, it is a breach of trust IMHO.

Catalina

 

[lord_bob]

I think doing that would be very unethical

you didn't write the stories; they did, if you're going to post them you should atleast get consent from them

 

[John Doe]

If it were me in that position, I would share my experience through conversation, but I would not publish a work without the express written consent of the author. I feel it would be unethical and a breach of trust. I don't know what the law is exactly, but as culloden said, it's advisable to exercise caution whenever the distinct possibility of a lawsuit is involved.

 

[BeachGurl2]

*taps foot, waiting impatiently for Marquis' research*

I would be very curious about the legalities. These letters were written to you and given to you, therefore, they became your property to do with as you wish. While there might have been some implication of being private, I can't imagine that would hold water in court. There are numerous publications that include personal letters and I know for a fact that not all of them obtained written consent prior to publication - a friend of mine published a book that included letters and never obtained permission from anyone.

As for the ethical implications. Personally, I can't see where there would or should be any negative issues involved here. You've already stated that you would be removing any identifying information. These letters were given to you. Yes, they contain personal stories, but who is going to be able to identify the writer if you've removed all identifying information? I don't really see this any differently than me writing a story about an encounter with someone and submitting it to lit. Sure, it's my writing at that point, but the story would be his as well. As long as identifying information is removed, I just don't see the issue.

 

[the captians wench]

while my curiosity makes me wish to read them very badly, when you submit a submition to lit, you check a little box that says that you are the original author of it, I think it says that any way. But I do know according to lit's rules you do have to be the original creator of the piece.

 

[MechaBlade]

Yours in leather,

I'm stealing this.

 

[snowy ciara]

Hi Prof...

I Googled "intellectual property rights, can I publish a private letter" and I got lots of confusing info. I couldn't find anything that was identical to your situation, but it sounds like (from what you've said here) that your assignments are literary works, and as such, they are covered by us copyrights law. If you are not the author and you have not been given contractual rights, than you cannot publish them. The clearest website was this one: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wwp.

It says in part that:

"Works Originally Created on or after January 1, 1978

A work that was created (fixed in tangible form for the first time) on or after January 1, 1978, is automatically protected from the moment of its creation and is ordinarily given a term enduring for the author’s life plus an additional 70 years after the author’s death. In the case of “a joint work prepared by two or more authors who did not work for hire,” the term lasts for 70 years after the last surviving author’s death. For works made for hire, and for anonymous and pseudonymous works (unless the author’s identity is revealed in Copyright Office records), the duration of copyright will be 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation, whichever is shorter."

Now from a purely personal view...

I have several stories on Lit and one of them has been jacked to another site. All identifying material has removed, IE, my username and all that. I am getting no credit for this work whatsoever. Even though I did write (or rather, re-write since it was originally personal wank material for me personally) it for publication, and I knew I wasn't going to get paid for it, I am PISSED. A total stranger has taken something I wrote for a specific audience posted it without my permission. I'm out for blood. Now, I am not any of your former submissives, but I can tell you that I'm pretty pissed about my work being reprinted without my permission, (especially on the site that it's on as it has several er nasty. stories posted also. I don't mean the "your kink is not okay" thing, I mean, snuff and stuff like that). I'm thinking about your situation and I'm think that as angry as I am over this, I would be even more pissed and angry if someone I cared about did the same thing. Even though you are no longer in your relationship, if I were one of the authors I would feel that you are abusing my trust in you, and I would prosecute to the fullest extent of the law regardless of any former relationship.

 

[Aeroil]

dreaded double post!!!

Catalina

Kiisza! you stole my phrase.


I would not publish them.

Were my hypothetical ex-dominant to do this, I would be upset.

 

[m wisdom]

...

As for the ethical implications. Personally, I can't see where there would or should be any negative issues involved here. You've already stated that you would be removing any identifying information. These letters were given to you. Yes, they contain personal stories, but who is going to be able to identify the writer if you've removed all identifying information? I don't really see this any differently than me writing a story about an encounter with someone and submitting it to lit. Sure, it's my writing at that point, but the story would be his as well. As long as identifying information is removed, I just don't see the issue.

I don't think it's an issue of being able to identify the person that wrote it or not, it's about letting outer people see something that was meant for private.
Think about it as a naked picture of you where your face and other identifying marks are obscured. There are a lot of people that would be upset if they would find such a picture of them self posted online without their consent.

And even if you don't think it's unethical are you sure the other person will see it the same way? Better to play it safe and get their consent, then you are sure.