An article on enslavement, that has made me ask LOTS of questions

[shy slave]

Questions on an article of enslavement.

Having read this article several times (copied and pasted onto this post) I would like to know people's opinions of it.

How does it feel to be 'owned' to this extent? Is it a simple process or one that people have found difficult to make the mental leap.

If ownedsubgal still reads the boards (haven't seen you post for a while) I would love to get your perspective of this.
As well as those subs who are fairly independant, Does your D expect this level of service from you?

Catlina you have been assertive (and I am sure you still are) in the work field, how easy is it to make that transition once at home, or if he demands your attention when you are at work.

I struggle to believe that a sub has no psychological space as their own.
Every nano-second in time new thoughts drift through our minds, we do not take ownership of all of them; some continue to drift on (in one ear and out another). How then can we share every thought with another. If a slave sees a flower and a drifting thought registers it as beautiful, does that have to be shared? Even if it has no consequence?

I would also like to ask male subs (yes Limbhugger that means you!), how can you, or do you, give up your space to your Domme?
If you don't at present is it something you are both working towards?
Is it practical on day-to-day terms to be owned to this extent by your Domme?

I have said before I think being a D is hard work.
What kind of mental overload does theis relationship put on Dom/Mes.
After a long day do you really want to have to think for another person as well?

I know thats hundreds of questions and again a long post.
But I am interested in your replies, I love hearing all your views and tying my mind in knots trying to make sense of things.

The Article - The Process of Enslavement
By Yaldahtvah May 2000
Physicality: The experience of one's body as one's own. A slave's body does not belong to her. She is instructed on how to wear her hair, whether and how to use makeup, when to be clothed, and in what clothing, and when to be naked, how to care for her skin and nails. She can be stripped and inspected at will. She is denied free access to her own pleasure. She may not masturbate without permission. She may not climax without permission. She may not take aspirin for a headache without permission. She has sex when, how, and with whom her Master decides. She must bear whatever pains are inflicted upon her. She has no right to say "no" to the use of her body. After a time, her psychological reality becomes "my body no longer belongs to me." When you take away a woman's free use and handling of her own body, it no longer belongs to her, but become's Master's property. It is a powerful shock that first moment a woman recognizes that her body is no longer her own.

Privacy: We free beings are used to the right to privacy. We close bathroom doors. We perform our ablutions in private. We would prefer to be left alone when we are ill, perhaps, or cranky, or not looking our best. We hide the evidence of our menses: flush the tampons, wrap the used napkins. We take our deepest fears, our most intense angers, our illogical primitive emotions and hide them from others, lest they turn from us in disgust or fear. We note our dreams in morning and consign them to the dream ether from whence they come; they disturb us and we wish to forget. A slave has no right to any of that privacy. There is no private space in which a slave can hide from Master, either literally or metaphorically. She may not close a bathroom door. If Master wants her to experience her lack of privacy, he may choose to intrude upon her bathroom functions. She may not hide her fears, her angers, her emotions, for when Master intuits she is astir, he will be in her face until she opens them to him. When a woman has no privacy, neither physical nor psychological, she no longer owns her space, her external or internal space. When you take away a woman's privacy, she no longer owns her internal or external space, her very essence belongs to Master.

We can see why this takes time. It takes time because one must repeatedly, consistently, doggedly take ownership of a woman's time and body, and strip her of the right to privacy. And it's no wonder there is resistence along the way: it's not only willfulness that must be addressed, but resistence out of fear when a woman begins to be transformed, when she feels her ownership of her time eroded, her ownership of her body stripped away, her privacy gone. A woman enters this process a free agent, comfortably familiar to herself, and is truly transformed.

She becomes a slave.

(orginally posted on alt*****style.master-slave, taken from [url]http://www.enslavement.org.uk/yld-enslave.html[/URL]

 

[SubmissiveDove5]

"If ownedsubgal still reads the boards (haven't seen you post for a while) I would love to get your perspective of this.
As well as those subs who are fairly independant, Does your D expect this level of service from you?"

Hi ShySlave,

I have read the article, and I am utterly shocked! I can't believe that a Dom would expect a woman to give up control of everything. I mean, I know that some do, but having to have all that responsibility for another human being, which immediately came to my mind, sounds unrealistic to me.

Personally, I would never allow any man, never mind a Dom, to control every aspect of my life. I am not a slave, just a sub, but even my Master has told me that he only wants me to submit to him in the bedroom. I am so thankful to him for allowing me to stay in control of my body during all other aspects of my day.

 

[sunfox]

I just don't think this is necessarily an accurate representation of what it is to be a slave for everyone, or even a large number of slaves. Though I'm not one myself, I can't think that not being able to take an aspirin for a headache is a productive use of control, unless the Dom/me is seeking to feel superior over an aching, cranky sub


Either way.. one person's opinion isn't necessarily the gospel truth. Every relationship is different, and the amount of control exerted will vary.

On a side note... I'm half way there and I never knew it!! I never shut the bathroom door unless someone is visiting, and I'm annoyingly disinterested in bodily privacy.

 

[shy slave]

Dove

Yes it shocked me too, hence all the questions. I can't imagine a Dom/Mme wanting that level of control 24/7, but then i am not a Domme *shrugs & grins*

Sun
You are right it is only one view, and I chose it because I thought it was a little extreme. I wondered if it would produce interesting debate among the Dom/Mes and assertive subs

Besides before you know it you'll be begging for that aspirin and if He reads you right He will get it for you !!

 

[Quint]

Didn't she ever hear that you aren't supposed to flush tampons?

Honestly, it makes sense but only as much as the couple decides that it does. I'd say that the only certain truth of a M/s relationship is that there is the *potential* for all of those rights to be taken from the slave. Most Masters I've read of or spoken to do not prefer that level of micromanagement----it isn't so much that their slave always asks before taking an aspirin, but that they *could* make it a rule ("Do not put anything into your body without My permission") and by the same nature, *could* deny them that request. Doesn't mean the couple will incorporate such rules; the Master could be quite satisfied with a slave who decides what is best for herself, within certain parameters, and the issue is suddenly moot. Case by case basis.

My pocketchange.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: Dove

Yes it shocked me too, hence all the questions. I can't imagine a Dom/Mme wanting that level of control 24/7, but then i am not a Domme *shrugs & grins*

Sun
You are right it is only one view, and I chose it because I thought it was a little extreme. I wondered if it would produce interesting debate among the Dom/Mes and assertive subs

Besides before you know it you'll be begging for that aspirin and if He reads you right He will get it for you !!

Im pretty sure no one who posted here is gonna like my view. I think something you are missing is that when you are in a relationship like that, little needs to be asked for. Master is not going to say "no aspirin for you". In a developed M/s thing, Master probably knows you need an aspirin before you need to ask. Its also about opening up in more ways then emotionally its not about not closing the bathroom door its about you being safe and comfortable with the situation to not have to do it. Well anyway thats just a bit of how i see it...i hope it made sense

 

[Pure]

Hi shy,

The I E folks have been the subject of a number of threads, and some of those persons (yaldah tovah-- self named) are quite good at expressing their views. Lark Sparrow made several postings about them.

I believe a number of their insights are valid, for example, that you can't just 'decide' to give up power (and become a slave); you have to go through a process whereby you lose the capability of resisting. IOW, you haven't given up--surrendered-- any power if you can just walk out the door at a point of your choosing (including 'stopping a scene' etc.).

OF course total enslavement, as they describe it, is too far for many; but at least they have an idea what the beast would look like, and it ain't Romeo and Juliet. IT differs from most descriptions of so called TPE.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

I know this is gonna sound strange coming from me but...

I can see much appeal in this in several areas -- having someone take that much interest, for instance. And I'm not very private anyway. Vulnerability and permeability appeals much more. This kind of slavery I could do, except for one thing.

Say over who I'd have sex with. I'd have to pick a master who is the jealous type, with no interest in my having sex with others.

This will sound weird again, but sticking to the Ten Commandments is important to me. Ambivalent about G-d, but strong about honor. Everyone is different about what integrity means to them but that's one thing I won't hand over. The right, and neccesity, of deciding the right and wrong that this body will do. Actually there are few things that fit into this category, and almost all involve questions of doing harm, except for with whom I'd have sex. So I'd have to find someone who shared these values.

But back to the slave question -- to be or not to be -- is that the question? I wouldn't mind being micromanaged by, well, only one person I can think of, and he's definitely not into this, so a moot point for me. Wonder if that's why it sounds ok, because he's so not like that?

On the other hand... hmmm. I have changed my dress style significantly since i married him (he likes the preppy/sporty look) and it feels like a major rebellion that he has to get used to, on the rare occasion that I pick something else. I used to ask his opinion on too many things for his taste, hairstyle and such, until it became clear that it was taking a lot of patience for him to answer. I wear what he likes me to, for sex, and there too, his taste is quite different from mine. For many of the areas mentioned he hasn't even asked and I've handed it over. Hell, I've probably asked him if I should take an aspirin for a headache before.

I've noticed occasionally over the years that he steps out of the car and expects me to follow. And I do. He's gotten quite put out when I've taken the lead just to try it out. Anyway, I'm recognizing more and more how much D/s was already present in our relationship unacknowledged.

 

[Pure]

P: This will sound weird again, but sticking to the Ten Commandments is important to me.

---

Well, for men, at least, (including married) the 10C don't limit the number of sex partners (so long as they aren't others' wives). They don't actually discuss 'fornication', i.e., fucking among two who are both unmarried, though of course the Hebrews prized virgin brides.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Have to say this is the type relationship we have in theory. Theory and reality are often different, as no-one is perfect, and mistakes can be made...and it is a continuous process. The expected rules outlined in the article are as we live, though exceptions are made at his discretion, and under certain circumstances he has outlined for me. I am expected to be 100% transparent and open to him, and my body is not considered my own anymore, but his property, his body.

It has been both difficult and easy. Easy in that it was my choice to seek a relationship where this was the expectation..and made easier for me by knowing my own power and not having to question myself over whether I wanted it because I needed someone else to handle my life, or out of genuine desire to relinguish control. Difficult also because I have always been so independent and strong in my life which means I have to consciously resist the natural instinct to do whatever needs doing, over and over....and often I fail. Also difficult because we have both been individuals and though we are together on most things, we do not always think or understand things in the same way. It takes work and communication.

All that being said, it is becoming more apparent to me through the most recent challenge set by him just how far I am prepared to go to meet his demands, to accept his wishes override mine at all times. The effects and outcomes of this acceptance have been interesting and revealing, and continue to be so. I now get to juggle the slave side of TPE, with a return of power by him to me which is being used in a way he has chosen. It feels as if I have control, and in truth I do on a certain level, but it is power and control given by him which if I wish to continue to explore and enjoy, might do well to remember.

Catalina

 

[kitty4ever]

I could never give up that much control. I know that I'm a sub, not a slave, and very clear about that. Now, some things I could do. He likes a certain shade of lipstick that looks nice on me, but too bright for day to day wear while at work, and I told him that. I would wear it for going out, or if our relationship gets to that point, to pleasure him with.

Small changes I could handle, but I like my space and privacy.

 

[Guest]

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Hmmm

As I have stated before (somewhere on this forum at some time) I have 2 petlings (our term) a married boy and girl. I do maintain that sort of coontrol with them but it grew out of small things like wanting to make sure they had a schedule they could stick to, checking to make sure their bills were paid on time, checking on their diet.

I don't consider myself their Master, though. I am simply doing what is needed to make sure their lives (and mine) run as smoothly as possible. They share everything with me..their hopes, fears, what ever angers them, you name it. I am their sounding board for all things, large and small. That is how they wanted it and that is what I give them.

I guess it doesn't seem as if it is a Master/slave relationship to me because it grew out of mutual need and respect for one another.

(good thread BTW)

*edited because that last sentence may have sounded as if i were trying to be snotty...or something to others who DO live in a Master/slave relationship with TPE. I wasn't trying to be rude, I swear..it's just how it came out.

 

[sunfox]

Not to be a dissident, but...

Im pretty sure no one who posted here is gonna like my view. I think something you are missing is that when you are in a relationship like that, little needs to be asked for. Master is not going to say "no aspirin for you". In a developed M/s thing, Master probably knows you need an aspirin before you need to ask. Its also about opening up in more ways then emotionally its not about not closing the bathroom door its about you being safe and comfortable with the situation to not have to do it. Well anyway thats just a bit of how i see it...i hope it made sense

I don't dislike your view.. but I do disagree.

A 'relationship like that' is no more a cause of clairvoyance than there is in any relationship. There seems to be, on some folks part, a belief that a M/s slave relationship involves some form of mystical mind to mind communication that the rest of us mortals aren't capable of understanding.

Not to put too fine a point upon it, but ha.

In our relationship, perhaps rather typical of women, who tend to bear pain better than our oh so manly counterparts... I rarely express or even intimate in my body language that I am in pain, even though I suffer from debilitating migraines and chronic rotator cuff pain in both shoulders. (Horses. Bad for your health!) Unless I vocalize that I am in pain, he would never guess that I was, because I go about my day without complaint.

I think the belief that were we to deepen our relationship to a more heavily M/s type from what we currently enjoy, we would somehow obtain a zenlike ability to read one anothers minds is not only ludicrous, but simply laughable. And while I enjoy a good giggle as much as the next girl, I don't think it's realistic to expect this simply by entering a TPE, or however you care to PYL, relationship.

Again, Kajira.. not disliking your comments.. I can see where they come from. I just disagree.

 

[Ziggy*stardust]

How does it feel to be 'owned' to this extent? Is it a simple process or one that people have found difficult to make the mental leap.

I struggle to believe that a sub has no psychological space as their own.
Every nano-second in time new thoughts drift through our minds, we do not take ownership of all of them; some continue to drift on (in one ear and out another). How then can we share every thought with another. If a slave sees a flower and a drifting thought registers it as beautiful, does that have to be shared? Even if it has no consequence?

This is the relationship that I am in with Ziggy and I am very happy this way.

It was not a simple process and it took time to get where we are now. First it took me years to find the right (compatible) person to own me and then, when I found him, it took years to develop into what I am now. I am still not done and I suspect I never will be either.

The process of becoming a slave as described was reached through internal enslavement in my case. For me, this is a process where my owner slowly molds my mental being into what he desires in a slave. The whole process goes so slowly that I never really realize that it is happening most of the time. But when I compare myself as I am now to what I was before my enslavement started I see huge differences. For instance, I enjoy food now that I didn’t enjoy before I became his, I enjoy music now that I didn’t enjoy before I became his. Somehow I now enjoy things that I have never thought I would like.

Everything I do, I do because it serves a purpose as his slave. In the beginning I always asked myself "would this please him?” Eventually that sentence became like a mantra for me, becoming part of me like breathing. When I reached that point, my thoughts were no longer my own because everything I think now is connected to him and his needs in some way.

He expects me to be completely open to him at all times. I have said this before somewhere but the main thought we share is: “how can the owner of a slave be able to keep her thoroughly enslaved if he doesn’t know her inside out?”

So when I see a pretty flower, I think "This would please him" and I tell him about it. The consequences being that 1: He is feeling nice because he sees something pretty and 2: He is aware that I have noticed the flower and that I find it pretty which gives him more knowledge of me. More knowledge of me helps him to enslave me more because it gives him the tools to mold (manipulate) me further into becoming what he wants me to become.

I am an extension of his body and mind because he owns my body and mind. Having extensions makes his life easier and more pleasing and those are my only purposes. I wouldn’t want to have it any other way if given a choice.

stardust

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: Not to be a dissident, but...

I don't dislike your view.. but I do disagree.

A 'relationship like that' is no more a cause of clairvoyance than there is in any relationship. There seems to be, on some folks part, a belief that a M/s slave relationship involves some form of mystical mind to mind communication that the rest of us mortals aren't capable of understanding.

Not to put too fine a point upon it, but ha.

In our relationship, perhaps rather typical of women, who tend to bear pain better than our oh so manly counterparts... I rarely express or even intimate in my body language that I am in pain, even though I suffer from debilitating migraines and chronic rotator cuff pain in both shoulders. (Horses. Bad for your health!) Unless I vocalize that I am in pain, he would never guess that I was, because I go about my day without complaint.

I think the belief that were we to deepen our relationship to a more heavily M/s type from what we currently enjoy, we would somehow obtain a zenlike ability to read one anothers minds is not only ludicrous, but simply laughable. And while I enjoy a good giggle as much as the next girl, I don't think it's realistic to expect this simply by entering a TPE, or however you care to PYL, relationship.

Again, Kajira.. not disliking your comments.. I can see where they come from. I just disagree.

Actually what you just said is pretty much what i did. everyone seems to perceive a M/s relationship as exactly how you thought i was explaining it when in fact its a relationship like any other, nobody reads minds but when you develop a closeness alot of stuff needs not be said. It happens in all relationships that have developed and are long term, not just M/s ones. Ever finish your SOs sentance? Ever just know he is cranky and needs a back rub?

 

[Phoenix Stone]

P: This will sound weird again, but sticking to the Ten Commandments is important to me.

---

Well, for men, at least, (including married) the 10C don't limit the number of sex partners (so long as they aren't others' wives). They don't actually discuss 'fornication', i.e., fucking among two who are both unmarried, though of course the Hebrews prized virgin brides.

Yeah, knew I should have used some other words rather than resorting to this shorthand. Especially as there are some of the 10C that I don't give a shit about, such as coveting, at least as I understand the English translation of the Hebrew.
Adultyr is just one of the unbreakables, to me. Pre-and post- no problem. And despite Onan, I can't consider masturbation anything but a positive good and a true blessing upon the Earth. Anyway, point was, ethical/integrity issues are a dealbreaker for me.
I just surprise myself by how much the rest of it Doesn't bother me, especially considering I went out of my way looking for guys who weren't controlling types, am quite independent and always have been, and this would all come as a great surprise to previous SOs, as well. Not for it nor 'gain it, it just is.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Not to be a dissident, but...

Actually what you just said is pretty much what i did. everyone seems to perceive a M/s relationship as exactly how you thought i was explaining it when in fact its a relationship like any other, nobody reads minds but when you develop a closeness alot of stuff needs not be said. It happens in all relationships that have developed and are long term, not just M/s ones. Ever finish your SOs sentance? Ever just know he is cranky and needs a back rub?

There does seem to be a defenciveness that creeps in at times when M/s is discussed, and assertions it is viewed by those in it as being elevated and/or spiritual when as you say KC it is just another form of relationship chosen to suit those who feel at home in it. For myself, I choose how I want to live in a relationship for me, not for how I think it might look to another, or whether it may be viewed as being on a higher or more profound level...it is just as it is because it is how I am most content at that space in time.

I have had a relationship which was not romantic where we seem to be mindreaders and finish each others sentences constantly... one adorable man who lives too far away in the US, but is like my twin in so many ways people find it difficut to believe we are not related in some way other than friends. My mother also has an incredible affinity to know how I am feeling even while I am on the other side of the globe and may not have spoken to her in a few weeks. I don't know how to understand or explain these connections, as they are not ones which only manifest themselves when in the presence of the other....in fact my US friend and I connected that way by mail, and then the minute we were face to face it began for real, before even getting into my car.

I have also had a vanilla relationship where no matter how well I tried to hide pain or illness, he detected it where no-one else could. Then I have had an online D/s relationship where he knew my mood without me typing a word, knew whether I was smiling or crying despite my words, and knew when we were offline if I was going through something bad, depression or unexpected event, and would come online and leave a message if I were not there. This was another one where there was no realtie connection needed and we still have not met in r/t.

Then there is Francisco who may not always consciously know when I am in pain, or ill, but has developed an affinity with my body and spirit I guess to the extent he has just realised he goes through PMS even when on those lucky occasions I don't (lol, I like that he can take that burden for me), and feels pain in his body where I have pain but may not necessarily have revealed to him until later. For him I guess it is a blessing we will not be having children as I suspect he would be one of those men who have the labour pains from beginning to end.

The type realtionship which suits people is not about what is better or worse compared to other models, what makes sense to those outside the relationship, but what fits and brings peace to those directly involved in it. It is also about growth, fluidity, and evolving into whatever shape fits in the future. Slavery of this magnitude discussed is not going to fit all people, just as bedroom submissiveness does not suit all, and that is why information, individuality and choice is a must before making any committment to any D/s type relationship.

Catalina

 

[SubmissiveDove5]

I have experienced that sort of connection to an extent. My best friend of sixteen years has often had the same thoughts as me. We have finished each others sentences as well. I often tell her that she probably knows me better than I do and vice versa. It is quite amazing.

 

[s'lara]

Re: Not to be a dissident, but...

I don't dislike your view.. but I do disagree.

A 'relationship like that' is no more a cause of clairvoyance than there is in any relationship. There seems to be, on some folks part, a belief that a M/s slave relationship involves some form of mystical mind to mind communication that the rest of us mortals aren't capable of understanding.

Not to put too fine a point upon it, but ha.

In our relationship, perhaps rather typical of women, who tend to bear pain better than our oh so manly counterparts... I rarely express or even intimate in my body language that I am in pain, even though I suffer from debilitating migraines and chronic rotator cuff pain in both shoulders. (Horses. Bad for your health!) Unless I vocalize that I am in pain, he would never guess that I was, because I go about my day without complaint.

I think the belief that were we to deepen our relationship to a more heavily M/s type from what we currently enjoy, we would somehow obtain a zenlike ability to read one anothers minds is not only ludicrous, but simply laughable. And while I enjoy a good giggle as much as the next girl, I don't think it's realistic to expect this simply by entering a TPE, or however you care to PYL, relationship.

Again, Kajira.. not disliking your comments.. I can see where they come from. I just disagree.

i have to agree. i am not dismissing the notion that sensory perception is heightened in relationships that are close. What i find to be unrealistic is the "He/She will know before you even ask." To foster that kind of thinking is setting the Dominant up for failure.

i don't doubt the process described in the article can lead to a slave becoming so conditioned that their thoughts/feelings are laid bare for the Dominant to see. However, it would take someone with incredible empathic abilities to know the thoughts of another at all times. i simply cannot see how such expectations won't result in miscommunication or hurt feelings. Even worse, physical or mental damage.

Maybe my cynicism is due to my acceptance that Dominant's have faults. Whatever the case, a submissive should not place an additional burden on the Dominant's shoulders by expecting them to know their thoughts without any input. To do so would allow the submissive to withdraw their responsibility to the Dominant ... the responsibility of keeping the Dominant abreast of their thoughts and feelings so that they can use those disclosures in their control of the submissive.

As to the article, i am not against control of this nature. i am quite sure there are those who are suited to a M/s relationship wherein the expression of ownership is to the level described in the article. i note that no one has acknowledged the amount of commitment it would take, from the Dominant and the submissive, to achieve a relationship akin to what the article dictates. i imagine the conditioning (yes, that is what this is) of someone to release this kind of power is intense and an endeavour that takes quite a bit of time. Not many people are willing to exert the necessary energy and abundant patience it would take to have a union where complete autonomy is removed from the submissive. i think that is where the perception of elevated status comes from when people think of Master/slave relationships in the vein of the ie article. While investing large amounts of time and effort into a Master/slave relationship (specifically the one described in the article) should not be dismissed as trivial, i'd hope that those existing in this medium are not labouring under the impression that they have a higher caliber union.

lara

 

[shy slave]

Re: Re: Not to be a dissident, but...

i have to agree. i am not dismissing the notion that sensory perception is heightened in relationships that are close. What i find to be unrealistic is the "He/She will know before you even ask." To foster that kind of thinking is setting the Dominant up for failure.

i don't doubt the process described in the article can lead to a slave becoming so conditioned that their thoughts/feelings are laid bare for the Dominant to see. However, it would take someone with incredible empathic abilities to know the thoughts of another at all times. i simply cannot see how such expectations won't result in miscommunication or hurt feelings. Even worse, physical or mental damage.

Maybe my cynicism is due to my acceptance that Dominant's have faults. Whatever the case, a submissive should not place an additional burden on the Dominant's shoulders by expecting them to know their thoughts without any input. To do so would allow the submissive to withdraw their responsibility to the Dominant ... the responsibility of keeping the Dominant abreast of their thoughts and feelings so that they can use those disclosures in their control of the submissive.

As to the article, i am not against control of this nature. i am quite sure there are those who are suited to a M/s relationship wherein the expression of ownership is to the level described in the article. i note that no one has acknowledged the amount of commitment it would take, from the Dominant and the submissive, to achieve a relationship akin to what the article dictates. i imagine the conditioning (yes, that is what this is) of someone to release this kind of power is intense and an endeavour that takes quite a bit of time. Not many people are willing to exert the necessary energy and abundant patience it would take to have a union where complete autonomy is removed from the submissive. i think that is where the perception of elevated status comes from when people think of Master/slave relationships in the vein of the ie article. While investing large amounts of time and effort into a Master/slave relationship (specifically the one described in the article) should not be dismissed as trivial, i'd hope that those existing in this medium are not labouring under the impression that they have a higher caliber union.

lara

Thanks Lara your post covers so much and makes sense to me, including your comments about the commitment level from both parties to achieve this level of D/s and the heightened risk of failure.

I can see Kajira's point about that mental connection but equally Sunfox is right in that it may not be with the right person. some people are simply more 'in tune' with another persons emotions/thoughts/feelings other than reading their body language, especially if they have conditioned themselves not to show the pain as in Sunfoxs' case.

Catalina & Dove both give examples of the psychic connection between people who are close but it is not always those people we are in a sexual/physical relationship with.

I think its unreasonable to expect anyone to always know our feelings etc , when sometimes we do not even know them ourselves.

 

[shy slave]

Didn't she ever hear that you aren't supposed to flush tampons?

Honestly, it makes sense but only as much as the couple decides that it does. I'd say that the only certain truth of a M/s relationship is that there is the *potential* for all of those rights to be taken from the slave. Most Masters I've read of or spoken to do not prefer that level of micromanagement----it isn't so much that their slave always asks before taking an aspirin, but that they *could* make it a rule ("Do not put anything into your body without My permission") and by the same nature, *could* deny them that request. Doesn't mean the couple will incorporate such rules; the Master could be quite satisfied with a slave who decides what is best for herself, within certain parameters, and the issue is suddenly moot. Case by case basis.

My pocketchange.

I am interested to know if Dom/Mmes here would want that level of micro-management all the time.

Pet ~ I understand how this situation has grown over a period of time between you and your petlings. Do you ever find it draining to give that level of support, care and attention to them? Particularly on those days when you are just too damned tired to do anything?

Looking at Quints post if a Master gives a rule ("Do not put anything into your body without My permission") but chooses never to exert that rule, is it still a rule or simply an unacknowledged agreement?

Phoenix S, you have already made made changes in your life for Him, and you say you could live this life provided your integrity remained intact. To me that sounds reasonable but what if you were in that lifestyle and He presented you with challenges that pushed your integrity? Would you feel able to walk away, say no or struggle internally before accepting his wish?

Pure said
"you can't just 'decide' to give up power (and become a slave); you have to go through a process whereby you lose the capability of resisting."

If you are able to resist then are you totally enslaved?

I guess I am thinking aloud to a certain extent. The idea of being micro-managed has appeal until the point when I don't want to be. For example being asked to watch Him with another woman.

Intially being able to give that control up, may seem like utopia but as Pure commented

"OF course total enslavement, as they describe it, is too far for many; but at least they have an idea what the beast would look like, and it ain't Romeo and Juliet. IT differs from most descriptions of so called TPE."

I guess for me, to live as the article suggests would be too far. I think I would feel I had given up my personality as well.

This clearly does not happen though as both Catalina and Stardust have not surrendered their personalities as part of their relationship.

Thank you Catalina for being honest about the difficulties you have faced and the effort you have put into overcoming them.

Starrdust said:
"I am an extension of his body and mind because he owns my body and mind. Having extensions makes his life easier and more pleasing and those are my only purposes. I wouldn’t want to have it any other way if given a choice."

This sounds wonderful, and although I am curious to know how you made that leap Stardust, I am also envious of the completeness you feel from your situation

I greatly admire anyone who can live in this type of relationship and make it work. Suppressing your natural instincts for His/Her will cannot be easy. I equally admire anyone who wishes to micro-manage at this level on a regular basis, for the benefit of both people.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

I am interested to know if Dom/Mmes here would want that level of micro-management all the time.

Pet ~ I understand how this situation has grown over a period of time between you and your petlings. Do you ever find it draining to give that level of support, care and attention to them? Particularly on those days when you are just too damned tired to do anything?

Do I find it draining? YES!! A resounding, shout from the rooftops YES but I also need to be needed in that capacity. I never knew how much I relished being wanted/needed in that respect until I started doing it. Now, I can not imagine my life any other way.

For the three of us it is almost like a symbiosis. They are a part of me, an integral part, and they are MINE because they choose to be. Everything from haircuts and color to what they wear, what they eat, even the hours they work, have been discussed and approved. It makes them feel safe and it makes me feel needed.

I guess that's why I don't feel it's a real Master/slave type of relationship. I need them as much as they need me, maybe more.

I hope this makes sense to you..cuz typing this was the hardest thing I have had to do concerning our little sexless menege a trois. I never even thought of how to explain it until now.

Later

 

[shy slave]

Pet

Thanks for your post and your honesty

Everyone needs to be needed and appreciated
xx

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

Re: Re: Not to be a dissident, but...

Not many people are willing to exert the necessary energy and abundant patience it would take to have a union where complete autonomy is removed from the submissive. i think that is where the perception of elevated status comes from when people think of Master/slave relationships in the vein of the ie article. While investing large amounts of time and effort into a Master/slave relationship (specifically the one described in the article) should not be dismissed as trivial, i'd hope that those existing in this medium are not labouring under the impression that they have a higher caliber union.

lara

I do so like her.

*grin*

She just saved me from saying all that. How handy.

It bugs me that somehow, there's an impression out there that there's some sort of natural progression. Bottom. Submissive. Slave. Ummm. No. There's not a BDSM social ladder folks. M/s isn't the be-all and end-all of what we should be striving for in a relationship. Now, grant you, I see it working wonderfully for some of my favorite people *waves to Catalina & Francisco*, but me? I'm content to be his owned submissive. Forever.

Oh yeah, he owns me. Let that one rattle around your brain case. While I am a submissive, I also consider myself his property. We made our own rules, ones that have very important and real meaning to us. *grin* .

Shy Slave, I think that's what I'd like to remind you to do. Take what you want and leave the rest--from everything you find out there. Ultimately, it's not about what anybody else does, or doesn't do. It's about what you and your Dom decide works for you.

~anelize