Americans divided, puzzled on this one: LaFave case

[Pure]

Americans can't figure out if they want to imprison her for life, while they read her phone tapes (released by the authorities) on the internet.

->What do you think? Are things unfolding as they should? Is the boy scarred for life?

http://www.tampabays10.com/pdfs/deb.pdf

Or slap her wrists and keep her in her house for a good while, able to write her story but not receive profits from it; or treat her for mental illness or give her a medal. Oh, and the genders are a bit divided on this one. (She's blond and good looking.)

Briefly, this 24 year old married woman teacher had a sexual relationship with a student of 14, including one classroom encounter and one at her home. Also, the student's cousin drove them around a couple times while she and the student had sex in the back seat.

After it was revealed and she was charged in Hillsborough County, Fla., she pleaded guilty to lewd and lascivious battery of a minor and received three years' house arrest and seven years' probation [Nov 2005]. She may not come near children without supervision, nor possess porn related to her problem. She will be registered as a sex offender. Part of her defense was 'bipolar disorder.'

Following more publicity, the next county, Marion, charged her regarding incidents in the same relationship, since the car in which she had sex with the boy, passed through that county. A plea deal involving no jail time was arrived at, but rejected by the court. Whereupon the prosecutor declined to press charges [Mar 2006], in part, because the boy's mother did not want him to have to testify.

LaFave's estranged husband has appeared on the Larry King show, with his views of the matter. (Jail her.)

[above is slightly supplemented and modified 1:24 pm EST, 3-26, from original posted version]

url for police account of the events

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0628042teach2.html

---



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/earlyshow/main1429564.shtml

Teacher-Sex Outcome Sparks Outrage
(Page 1 of 2)

BATON ROUGE, La., March 22, 2006

(CBS) Now that state prosecutors have dropped charges against Debra Lafave in Marion County, Fla., it appears the former teacher won't be spending any time in jail for allegedly having sex several times with a 14-year-old student.

On The Early Show Wednesday, CBS News legal analyst and former prosecutor Wendy Murphy called that "jaw-dropping."

Lafave faces three years of house arrest and seven years probation in Hillsborough County, Fla., where she was charged with having sex with the teen in a classroom and her home. She pleaded guilty Nov. 22 to two counts of lewd and lascivious battery under a plea deal there.

In Marion County, she was accused of having sex with the boy in a sport utility vehicle.

The decision to drop the charges was announced hours after a judge rejected a plea deal for Lafave in Marion County.

It means the teen won't have to testify, something his family was pushing for and that prosecutors cited as the main factor in their decision to drop the charges in Marion County.

Murphy calls the development "jaw-dropping from every perspective. This is a woman who literally raped a 14-year-old boy repeatedly. And she wasn't just a woman. Not just an adult. She was his teacher. It sends a terrible message that rape of children is not a very serious crime.

"And, frankly, I think it sends a message that we have a two-tiered justice system, that if you're cute, if you have influence of any kind, you get a walk. Because the people who aren't cute, who are doing these things to kids, they're actually behind bars."

Murphy also sees a kind of reverse sexism at work: "Male teachers raping their 14-year-old students, lots of them are behind bars, because that's exactly where they belong."

She is sharply critical of the prosecutor, saying he's to blame for the charges being dropped and, "The judge here is the hero. The judge said, 'I'm not going to accept a plea bargain where she gets a complete pass.' The prosecutor then just said, 'Well, I'm going to drop the charges.' He has to accept responsibility and, frankly, he should hang his head in shame."


=========
http://www.courttv.com/news/lafave/032106_ap.html

Updated March 22, 2006, 11:06 a.m. ET

Prosecutors drop charges against Debra Lafave



OCALA, Fla. (AP) — A former teacher sentenced to three years of house arrest for having sex with a 14-year-old student in one Florida county won't face charges in another. Prosecutors in Marion County decided to drop charges Tuesday after a judge rejected a plea deal that would have kept Debra Lafave out of prison.

Prosecutors, defense attorneys and the victim's mother urged the judge to accept the deal so the boy wouldn't have to testify. A psychiatrist who examined the teenager told the judge previously that the boy suffered extreme anxiety from the media coverage of the case. Marion County Circuit Judge Hale Stancil, however, said the lack of prison time for Lafave under the plea deal "shocks the conscience of this court."
Explaining the decision to drop the charges, Assistant State Attorney Richard Ridgway, said: "The court may be willing to risk the well-being of the victims in this case in order to force it to trial. I am not."Lafave's sentence in Hillsborough County, which includes seven years' probation, still stands.


In Marion County, she was accused of having sex with the boy in a sport utility vehicle.Lafave said at a news conference that she was getting treatment for bipolar disorder."I have a lot of things in my past that have unfortunately become public," Lafave said. (VIDEO)"I pray with all my heart that the young man and his family will be able to move on with their lives," she said. "Again, I offer my deepest apologies."

Hillsborough County prosecutor Mike Sinacore has said that the victim's family had anticipated a trial, but that the media attention prompted the boy's mother to push for a plea deal."

There is no one that wanted to see Debra Lafave serve jail time more than myself," the boy's mother wrote in an e-mail to the Ocala Star-Banner over the weekend. But she said the welfare of her son was more important.

 

[elsol]

Are you asking a question?

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[3113]

"And, frankly, I think it sends a message that we have a two-tiered justice system, that if you're cute, if you have influence of any kind, you get a walk. Because the people who aren't cute, who are doing these things to kids, they're actually behind bars."

This came as a "jaw-dropping" surprise?

I'm not at all surprised. A jury probably WOULD have convicted her, but the boy would have been put through the ringer first.

So. Does she get listed as a sex offender?

 

[Pure]

yes, she has to register as a sex predator.

 

[Pure]

el,

so what's an appropriate penalty? is the boy scarred?

 

[Liar]

is the boy scarred?

Might be, might not. I don't know enough about the story.

This might get me flamed to hell and back, but not all young teenagers who have sex with adults are scarred by it. The prosecutor quoted says "rape", which I guess is the legal term. But was there force, aggression or manipulation involved, or was it an utterly foolish but mutually consentual relationship between a boy who couldn't know better and a woman who should know better?

However, that's irrelevant. "Should know better" is the keyword. The laws are there to make sure that those who would be scarred by it, are not.

 

[R. Richard]

But was there force, aggression or manipulation involved, or was it an utterly foolish but mutually consentual relationship between a boy who couldn't know better and a woman who should know better?

It is not possible for an adult to have a "mutually consentual relationship" with a 14-year-old. The 14-year-old is not legally able to give consent.

 

[Liar]

It is not possible for an adult to have a "mutually consentual relationship" with a 14-year-old. The 14-year-old is not legally able to give consent.

And nor did I say it is.

However, laws are one thing. Reality another. Legally, a 14 y o can not consent. Practically, a 14 y o can. (Not saying that's how it usually goes, just that it's possible.) Which in no way lets the adult off the hook though. To take advantage of that practical consent is, legally, rape.

 

[Typo Fu Master]

It is not possible for an adult to have a "mutually consentual relationship" with a 14-year-old. The 14-year-old is not legally able to give consent.

Maybe not legally, but I doubt he was screaming "No!" while they were involved.

Murphy also sees a kind of reverse sexism at work: "Male teachers raping their 14-year-old students, lots of them are behind bars, because that's exactly where they belong."

This case should be no different. If she had been a male having sex with a 14 year old girl, this would never have happened.

 

[Pure]

The facts

are set out in a police report at 'the smoking gun'

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0628042teach2.html

since she pleaded guilty*, I would assume that she did not contest the account.


*to the first set of charges, in Hillsborough County

 

[zeb1094]

This came as a "jaw-dropping" surprise?

I'm not at all surprised. A jury probably WOULD have convicted her, but the boy would have been put through the ringer first.

So. Does she get listed as a sex offender?

No conviction, no sex offense, so no registration.

 

[JamesSD]

I think the issue in these sort of cases is we don't want to have a double standard, yet it's hard not to. Generally I assume that any 14 year old female who is involved sexually with a 20-something year old man (much less a teacher) is being exploited. I'm less sure with boys. At the same time, 14 year old boys DEFINITELY are not emotionally mature (I'm skeptical about 18 year old boys, and I'm less than a decade removed from them).

She's obviously got mental issues. For one she's married, and she's attractive enough that if she just wanted an affair she could easily go to a bar or post an ad online and have dozens if not hundreds of options.

Perhaps the best thing is for the courts to have leeway in analyzing how harmed the child was. Should we trust the courts to be able to determine who deserves a slap on the wrist and who deserves to be branded a sex offender?

 

[Recidiva]

This is not every case, surely, but in my case I've met a few 14-year-olds (online and...uh...eventually...in real life) that have absolutely no problem being sexual predators in their own right.

My current husband was cutting a wide swathe by 14 years old.

So I know the law is the law, and I will support the law.

But if the kid isn't complaining...

I simply know for absolute fact, that a 14-year-old male, on a case by case basis, can be a frighteningly proficient sexual predator using every single bit of imagination and energy, to sleep with the woman he wants to sleep with.

 

[3113]

Well, the transcripts of the phone conversations--which I, frankly, couldn't get through (neither one of them has either a vocabulary or much to say to each other), show her as being the dominate one in the relationship. So, in this case at least, the 14 year old was not the predator.

HOWEVER, The reasons why the prosectution would NOT want the boy on the stand is that those conversations do show that he could probably have said, "Not interested," and she'd have backed off.

Which does NOT excuse her!--she's the adult and he's 14, etc. BUT it would have made for a nasty time for the boy there on the witness stand. He was, if not an enthuiastic participant, a willing one in as much as a 14 year old boy can know enough about what he's getting into to be "willing."

 

[Recidiva]

Well, the transcripts of the phone conversations--which I, frankly, couldn't get through (neither one of them has either a vocabulary or much to say to each other), show her as being the dominate one in the relationship. So, in this case at least, the 14 year old was not the predator.

HOWEVER, The reasons why the prosectution would NOT want the boy on the stand is that those conversations do show that he could probably have said, "Not interested," and she'd have backed off.

Which does NOT excuse her!--she's the adult and he's 14, etc. BUT it would have made for a nasty time for the boy there on the witness stand. He was, if not an enthuiastic participant, a willing one in as much as a 14 year old boy can know enough about what he's getting into to be "willing."

Yes, the experience and ability of your average 14 year old varies wildly...as does your experience and ability of your average 50 year old.

But that's why there's ambivalence. In this situation, it's not absolutely clear that someone has been harmed enough to punish someone else for it.

 

[3113]

Well, we have two problems here.
Problem #1 is her. She doesn't strike me as the kind of woman I'd want my kid involved with no matter if he was 18 let alone 14. She was a teacher, and that should be a position of authority and reponsibility--and this is not responsible. She also doesn't sound right in the head--and that's not good for being a teacher of youth either.

Problem #2 is the much larger problem of how the West, especially the U.S. artifically extends adolescence. It's unfortnate that we are not likely as a country, to address this problem and deal with it. We extend adolescence for 4 years--13-17. And we give these teens no way to legally and reasonably relieve their need to explore, experiment and learn about sex. No hands on teachers, as it were. Then we're shocked! Shocked I say, when they either have reckless sex with each other, or with adults like this disturbed woman.

And then suddenly, at age 18, we say to them: You're an adult now. Do what you like. No initiation ceremony into adulthood, no class to teach them the ways of adulthood that society expects of them, nothing, nada. We essentially stick them in limbo with their homones and changing bodies for 4 years and expect them to figure it all out on their own--and be responsible adults on their 18th birthday.

And then we're shocked! Shocked I say, at the reckless sex they have in college.

THIS is the REAL problem. If we didn't extend the adolescence for so long, if we taught them how to be adults and how to have responsible sex--if we even had some form of "temple postitutes" where in they were given hands-on experience in sex rather than experimenting and re-inventing the wheel on their own...maybe women like this one wouldn't be able to take advantage of 14-year-olds.

Hey, come to that, I know some men and women in their late twenties who take advantage of still naive 18 and 19 year olds--and its still wrong even if they are legally adults. Because they have no clue at all about what they're getting into. No one has taught them anything--and, to be fair, maybe it can't be taught, it has to be experienced, but heck! We could at least try.

We really need to get back to doing that in some form or other--as a society. Something a little bit better than Bar Mitzvahs and graduation cermonies.

 

[Recidiva]

Well, the first question, not a little facetious, is..."Is there anybody you'd like your kids to be involved with?"

And the second point I heartily agree with. This is one of those areas where the law is doing the best it can to protect the majority, but there's a definite minority that it doesn't apply to. Flexibility is where the jury comes in.

 

[Pure]

if I had a son....

well, leaving aside the issue of 'too friendly persuasion,' maybe better Debra for his first time, as compared with the class bicycle, since 1) he won't get the clap, 2) she probably won't get pregnant

 

[Guest]

Even Scott Adams chimed in on this one.

"And yet, having been a 14-year old boy myself, I have a hard time feeling sorry for the kid, since he’s the victim of my biggest fantasy at that age. (I had this French teacher, but sadly for me she was law abiding.)"

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/060322/tdy_sanders_sexteacher_060322.300w.jpg

 

[Recidiva]

I had a huge crush on my band director, but the closest we even approached the subject was him trying to set me up with his son.

Not the same.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Wow! That's the first time I've read the transcripts. Neither one of them had much of a vocabulary. She has some deep seated psychological problems to have a relationship with a 14 year old. Yet, I don't see him complaining. Only worrying if he should use a condom on his 4th sexual adventure with her.
Is she guilty of rape? No! He seemed more than willing. Is she guilty of having sex with a minor? Yes! That alone should lead to time in jail.
But the charges were dismissed. Watch and see. Once she's off probation and he's of legal age. Who knows what will happen.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Wow! That's the first time I've read the transcripts. Neither one of them had much of a vocabulary. She has some deep seated psychological problems to have a relationship with a 14 year old. Yet, I don't see him complaining. Only worrying if he should use a condom on his 4th sexual adventure with her.
Is she guilty of rape? No! He seemed more than willing. Is she guilty of having sex with a minor? Yes! That alone should lead to time in jail.
But the charges were dismissed. Watch and see. Once she's off probation and he's of legal age. Who knows what will happen.

She's guilty of stautory rape. Same as a man would be if he had sex with a 14 year old girl.

If the stautory rape laws are there to protect minors, then this is a travesty of justice. We she a man, they would have thrown him in jail and tossed the key. I personally feel that's the correct path to take. A fourteen year old male is no more devolpmentally an adult than a fourteen year old girl is. Adolescent minds are simply not as fully develpoed as adult minds, that's why we have a separate justice system for juvenile offenders. And why we severely punish adults who commit crimes against or in concert with minors.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Yes, society does have a double standard on this issue. It's for the same reason that society has had (and still does to a limited extent) on teenage girls. They still tend to assume that women are automatically the reluctant ones in sex. Not always true. In any case, I don't feel that most people are victims when they get laid, once they have entered puberty. I know many will differ with me, but adolescence is artificially extended, as 3113 says. I frankly suggest that some chaperoned, protected sex between teens would be healthy for society. Then again, I tend to think of most teens as being only as irresponsible as society teaches them to be. Tell teens that they are too young for this or that, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Perhaps a sexual "apprenticeship" would be a good idea. 2 teens of each sex are assigned to a fairly stable couple for supervision of their sex lives and some "hands-on" (again quoting 3113 here) training by having sex with one or both of the partners in the couple each.

I actually have something similar happening in the novel that I am writing.

 

[Huckleman2000]

A few things about this stand out to me.

First is, people do wacky shit when they're bipolar and on a manic bender, and they often draw others into their weirdness. Let's face it, it's fun to be around someone who's supremely confident in themselves and energetic and charismatic and totally hot, as this woman undoubtedly is. Still, I'm sure that sexually predatory behavior while in a manic phase is a much more acceptable defense for a woman than it would be for a man, even though their victims might seem to be equally willing participants.

Second, girls generally mature physically earlier than boys, but that's just an average. Just as there are 14 year old girls who look older, there are some 14 year old boys who look older too. The point is, the physical attraction may not be as creepy as the actual age discrepency suggests. This teacher is a pretty young-looking 24 year old. Finding herself in a young marriage she apparently regretted, with adult responsibilities that she hadn't adjusted to, I can see where she might yearn for a wild irresponsible adolescence that maybe she denied herself. I know I do sometimes. I'm just not in a position to act on it, and have never been attractive or bold or crazy enough to do anything about it anyway. I can sort of understand the impulse, though.

Lastly, this is an obvious case of a double standard that cuts in favor of young attractive women. And this surprises you, how?

I suppose when I was an 18 year old senior in high school, and my girlfriend was a 16 year old sophomore, I was guilty of statutory rape. She was the sexual aggressor, though, god love her. I know that's not the same as a teacher-student relationship, I'm just saying that the letter of the law in all cases is not always the best possible outcome for the people involved.

Also, adult professor-student relationships are not, by definition, negative or manipulative or coercion, just as not all relationships between co-workers are coercive. I'm just saying.

 

[Norajane]

She's guilty of stautory rape. Same as a man would be if he had sex with a 14 year old girl.

If the stautory rape laws are there to protect minors, then this is a travesty of justice. We she a man, they would have thrown him in jail and tossed the key. I personally feel that's the correct path to take. A fourteen year old male is no more devolpmentally an adult than a fourteen year old girl is. Adolescent minds are simply not as fully develpoed as adult minds, that's why we have a separate justice system for juvenile offenders. And why we severely punish adults who commit crimes against or in concert with minors.

Yes, yes, yes. Totally agree.

And she should have gotten extra jail time for not using condoms. I hope that boy was tested for STD's.

Some teacher.