American Dream - it's just a dream

[cloudy]

Can you get a driver's license without being able to read in the US? How you gonna read the traffic signs?

You can't.

I don't know how that guy that Speedbumps is talking about did it, but there IS a written test, and yes, you do have to be able to read.

 

[Speedbumps]

Hehe mafia beware

Theres a new tribe in town and they play by the rules AND know how to use tomohawks.

(Ok that probably came over as racist, but I truly didn't mean it that way.)

 

[cloudy]

Good deal I have heard of tribal corporations running casinos and such. Give em a few years and they will own most the land again. Familial loyalty (and I assume tribal) makes for great profits.

...and the infighting is brutal, no kidding. If you think US politics are bad, stay abreast of Indian politics for awhile. We make US politicians look like saints, no shit.

It's coming, but there need to be more jobs available there ON the rez, where people can actually get to work.

 

[Speedbumps]

You can't.

I don't know how that guy that Speedbumps is talking about did it, but there IS a written test, and yes, you do have to be able to read.

Yes you can. I promise. You can't get an interstate license, but you can get an Intrastate license. There are plenty of intrastate jobs. It even lets you stay closer to home.

Next time you get by the drivers license office ask them about the verbal test machine for people who can't read. It is kinda cool that they have actually done that much to help people who can't for some reason or another learn to read.

 

[Alex756]

The dream is not dead. We are never helpless.

http://www.journalstar.com/articles...on/whiteclay/p1/doc428677a9d552b014642302.txt

If this woman doesn't prove there is still hope I don't know what does. Drinking definately falls under a 'dumb choice', this woman got up and walked away from it. She is taking an active role in her life and doing what is best for her child.

Hats off to Toya Chase Alone for bravery and hats off to Colleen Kenny for a damn find job of reporting it and hats off to the journel star for running the story.


~Alex

 

[cloudy]

The dream is not dead. We are never helpless.

http://www.journalstar.com/articles...on/whiteclay/p1/doc428677a9d552b014642302.txt

If this woman doesn't prove there is still hope I don't know what does. Drinking definately falls under a 'dumb choice', this woman got up and walked away from it. She is taking an active role in her life and doing what is best for her child.

Hats off to Toya Chase Alone for bravery and hats off to Colleen Kenny for a damn find job of reporting it and hats off to the journel star for running the story.


~Alex

She's one who has a chance, maybe. I hope so.

The whole situation, nation-wide, brings me to tears a lot of days.

 

[thebullet]

The dream is not dead. We are never helpless.

http://www.journalstar.com/articles...2b014642302.txt

If this woman doesn't prove there is still hope I don't know what does. Drinking definately falls under a 'dumb choice', this woman got up and walked away from it. She is taking an active role in her life and doing what is best for her child.

Hats off to Toya Chase Alone for bravery and hats off to Colleen Kenny for a damn find job of reporting it and hats off to the journel star for running the story.

Perhaps Alex doesn't understand the difference between anecdotal evidence and statistical evidence. Yes, anecdotally one will find story after story about the person who 'made it' in America. Those anecdotes continue to feed the beliefs of those who wish to tell themselves that 'the dream' is still alive.

Statistically, however, 'the dream' is only a myth. Study after study shows that if one is born into certain social strata, there one will remain. The point of this thread is that recent studies show that social/financial mobility is far more difficult in America than in Europe.

And people like Alex will throw out these little stories like the one above and shout that it just ain't so. Hey Alex, don't you think the same kinds of stories exist in Bangladesh? What's the social/economic mobility there?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Perhaps Alex doesn't understand the difference between anecdotal evidence and statistical evidence. Yes, anecdotally one will find story after story about the person who 'made it' in America. Those anecdotes continue to feed the beliefs of those who wish to tell themselves that 'the dream' is still alive.

Statistically, however, 'the dream' is only a myth. Study after study shows that if one is born into certain social strata, there one will remain. The point of this thread is that recent studies show that social/financial mobility is far more difficult in America than in Europe.

And people like Alex will throw out these little stories like the one above and shout that it just ain't so. Hey Alex, don't you think the same kinds of stories exist in Bangladesh? What's the social/economic mobility there?

Bullet, I read the study results you posted. As I pointed out, it basically says that 69% of those born into poverty rise out of poverty and almost half rise well above poverty. Do you have anything else to show us?

I have never seen anything about better social/financial mobility in Europe.

 

[thebullet]

Boxlicker:
I didn't post those results, I merely reposted something someone else had posted. I haven't access to the raw data, if that is what you are asking. I started this thread based upon something I read on a news wire or heard on a National broadcast, I forget which. Again, they only stated results, did not give raw data. Since it is the middle of the night and I've got half a bottle of wine down my throat, I don't much feel like doing research.

I will, however, follow up probably tomorrow and try to give you better numbers rather than ambiguous statements. Deal?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Boxlicker:
I didn't post those results, I merely reposted something someone else had posted. I haven't access to the raw data, if that is what you are asking. I started this thread based upon something I read on a news wire or heard on a National broadcast, I forget which. Again, they only stated results, did not give raw data. Since it is the middle of the night and I've got half a bottle of wine down my throat, I don't much feel like doing research.

I will, however, follow up probably tomorrow and try to give you better numbers rather than ambiguous statements. Deal?

OK, that's a deal. And you might answer these questions I asked about an earlier post too.

What right-wing cliches are those? I am saying that if people don't do stupid things or self-defeating things, they will do allright. I'm not saying they will be rich; I'm saying they will not be impoverished.

What ancestors of slaves do you mean? There hasn't been any slavery in the US, except among undocumented immigrants, for 140 years.

What does black skin have to do with anything? I am reasonably sure that you and everybody else on AH knows persons of all races who have prospered, and they have done so through hard work, and by not "wallowing in their own circumstances" to paraphrase you.

Being black might be something of a disadvantage, but it is not as much of a one as being a wino on Skid Row.
__________________

 

[Liar]

What right-wing cliches are those? I am saying that if people don't do stupid things or self-defeating things, they will do allright. I'm not saying they will be rich; I'm saying they will not be impoverished.

Even if they start out in poverty? If I'm borm poor and don't do stupid things or self-defeating things, will I rise to non-poor?

Yay or Nay? Just askin'.

 

[yui]

Even if they start out in poverty? If I'm borm poor and don't do stupid things or self-defeating things, will I rise to non-poor?

Yay or Nay? Just askin'.

Box's statement also fails to take into account that we all do stupid and self-defeating things that seem like a good idea at the time. We can only make decisions, to the best of our ability, based on what we know at that moment in time. Hindsight is 20/20, of course!

Saying that poverty is simply the result of poor choices is, in my opinion, self-righteous, sanctimonious drivel; I still maintain that it is simply that some people in this world still have choices after they make those glaringly bad ones.

But many, many people aren't so fortunate. It's primarily luck and the turn of the wheel.

Luck to us all,

Yui

 

[Alex756]

Box's statement also fails to take into account that we all do stupid and self-defeating things that seem like a good idea at the time. We can only make decisions, to the best of our ability, based on what we know at that moment in time. Hindsight is 20/20, of course!

Saying that poverty is simply the result of poor choices is, in my opinion, self-righteous, sanctimonious drivel; I still maintain that it is simply that some people in this world still have choices after they make those glaringly bad ones.

But many, many people aren't so fortunate. It's primarily luck and the turn of the wheel.

Luck to us all,

Yui

I don't think anyone is saying every case of poverty is resulted from bad choices, the thing is, your chance is much greater if you don't drink, do drugs, or have a baby when you're in your teens. Doing those 3 things which an indivisual does have control over greatly decrease your chances of making it. Some people do those 3 things and still make it, some people don't do those 3 things and don't make it. The odds are better of you don't do those three things though.

If you're a kid and your parent(s) do(es) any of those three, yeah it screws over your chances. But if you don't do those three things yourself, your chances are still better than if you did.

I will refrain from using any more examples of people making it since thats just going to get attacked.

~Alex

 

[Liar]

I don't think anyone is saying every case of poverty is resulted from bad choices, the thing is, your chance is much greater if you don't drink, do drugs, or have a baby when you're in your teens.

True, but are those things symptoms of a messed up life or causes for it? If it was as easy as choices all of the time, I don't think the world would have looked the way it does.

Avoiding to fall into those traps takes as much effort when you're on the bottom as improving your standards does when you are further up the ladder. If not more.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Perhaps Alex doesn't understand the difference between anecdotal evidence and statistical evidence. Yes, anecdotally one will find story after story about the person who 'made it' in America. Those anecdotes continue to feed the beliefs of those who wish to tell themselves that 'the dream' is still alive.

Statistically, however, 'the dream' is only a myth. Study after study shows that if one is born into certain social strata, there one will remain. The point of this thread is that recent studies show that social/financial mobility is far more difficult in America than in Europe.

Actually, if one is going to harp about using statistics accurately ...

One could only draw from these conclusions that social mobility in the US is less common - not that it is more difficult. That is, these statistics can tell you the state of economic mobility, but cannot tell you causes - including whether they exist in the social structure, the government, or the individual. They cannot actually indicate whether the act is more difficult or the actors less motivated or competent. I don't choose to take a position on either side myself in saying this; I only observe that your own use of statistics includes unwarranted assumptions.

Shanglan

 

[Boxlicker101]

Actually, what I said on the third post in this thread was this:

I won't say all poor people lack a work ethic but certainly some of them do. I will say that most persons who are impoverished are in that situation because of their own bad choices or, in the case of children, those made by their parents. I mean the fifteen year old girl who decided that she could hold onto her boyfriend if she got pregnant and then was surprised when he left town, leaving her with a baby. I mean the young man who is having too much fun to go to school and remains illiterate. I mean others who decide to do similar stupid things and never come close to what they could have accomplished for themselves. In my own case, I mean the teenager who started to drink early because he enjoyed being drunk, lost jobs and ended up on skid row, working at the most menial, dead-end jobs for sub-minimum pay. When I was in my thirties, I got my act together, quit drinking, got a decent job, worked my way through college, got a better job and now am comfortably retired and live in my own house.

As you can see, I use three examples; two of them are hypothetical and one is myself.

The Bullet provided me with a link to some study results that said, in effect, that 69% of Americans born in the lowest socioeconomic 10% rise out of that level, which I thought demonstrated pretty good upward mobility. It didn't say they became rich, just that they became better off. Horsie, I have to say that 69% is much better than a myth.

I would not say "everybody" because there are some who just have bad luck and there are many who have problems with health or injuries.

Yui, I know we all do stupid and self-defeating things but some are sufficiently well off anyhow that those things don't matter as much. Others, such as I, realize that we are doing stupid or self-defeating things and stop doing them. Still others either don't realize it or do but choose to do nothing about it. Such people will have little or no upward mobility.

Liar, I realize that a young girl becoming pregnant or somebody starting to use dope or get drunk or do other self-defeating things might be a symptom of being already fucked up. Even so, those are choices that are made.