American Dream - it's just a dream

[Colleen Thomas]

There's lots of good information in the papers, in my opinion.

Although one here in Toronto is, uhm, weird.

Last week one of their columnists suggested that bringing public whipping back. And he was serious.

If such a thing comes to pass, I'm going to plant two kilos of heroin in his house and call the cops.

I get such drastically opposing sets of facts nowadays. it's like every column is an op/ed piece. And the cases wehre I am prepared to sort the crap from the kernal have slipped dramatically as it becomes an ever more arduous task.

 

[rgraham666]

I get such drastically opposing sets of facts nowadays. it's like every column is an op/ed piece. And the cases wehre I am prepared to sort the crap from the kernal have slipped dramatically as it becomes an ever more arduous task.

I suspect that's a peculiarity of the times in your country, Colleen. From what I can see a lot of people are working very hard to sharply define and excaberate the various divisions in your country.

I believe it's much calmer here for the most part. Hell, last week I even had nice thoughts about the leader of the Conservative party.

He suggested severely limiting the role of lobbyists, limiting political donations to individuals with ceiling of $1,000 and raising the number of years before a public servant can work for a lobby group to five years.

I go, "Holy shit! Those are good ideas!"

 

[Boxlicker101]

Here is an article pointed to by RGraham that offers support for what some of us have been saying. Dispute it, Boxlicker, but please use equally solid research.

Kindly read it. If you care to, then comment upon the following statment found in this study:
Perhaps the only legitimate use of the intergenerational correlation in income is to characterize economic mobility. The data challenge the notion that the United States is an exceptionally mobile society. If the United States stands out in comparison with other countries, it is in having a more static distribution of income across generations with fewer opportunities for advancement.

The “study” you presented is just results, with no numbers saying what went into it, but even then, it doesn’t say much about getting out of poverty. It does say that the descendants of people who are prosperous tend to be less prosperous on the average, but still okay. I don’t see this as a negative thing, just as something that happens. After all, it’s not possible for everybody to be above average.

This is what it says about “poverty” although it does not actually use that term. For the sake of argument, let’s say that those in the bottom 10% are impoverished:

Furthermore, the degree of persistence across generations is strong for both rich and poor. Thomas Hertz of American University finds that a child born in the bottom 10 percent of families ranked by income has a 31 percent chance of ending up there as an adult and a 51 percent chance of ending up in the bottom 20 percent, while one born in the top 10 percent has a 30 percent chance of staying there and a 43 percent chance of being in the top 20 percent.

I can’t help but think the numbers contradict the conclusions. It says that if a child is born into poverty, there is a 31% chance that he will remain there, and a 51% chance that he will be only be able to reach the next 10% of the socioeconomic level. As far as I can see, this means there is a 69% chance that such children will climb out of poverty, and a 49% chance that they will climb quite a way out. Not bad, as far as I can see.

There are also a Swedish and a Finnish professor who are cited as saying that Swedes are more upwardly mobile than Americans. I tend to doubt that because Socialism does not tend to encourage upward mobility, but there are no numbers to challenge. I very strongly doubt that “Only South Africa and Britain have as little mobility across generations as the United States.” As it says in the “study”.

However, as Colly pointed out, and I agree with her, the “poor” in the US are only poor in comparison with other Americans. Most (not all) of the people in the US who are considered to be poor would be considered to be fairly well-off in other countries.

RG, I said earlier that most people who are poor are there because they, or their parents if they are children, made stupid decisions or self-defeating decisions. I stand by that statement but I do not consider those who are poor because of illness or injury or similar reason to be includable in “most people”.

Cloudy, as I said before, those Native Americans who choose to continue to live in poverty on reservations are making a choice. Maybe not stupid, but certainly self-defeating. You, on the other hand, chose not to do so, and are better off for it. If I look back far enough, I would see my ancestors living in caves, later in mud huts and still later in log cabins. I have never lived in any of those places and probably never will. Those are traditions I will not keep.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Coming from an immigrant background, I will add this: material success does involve sacrifices. The lower one starts on the ladder, the more one sacrifices, and part of that sacrifice may be culture. I speak neither Irish nor Italian. I have only a dim comprehension of the geography of the countries from which my forebears arrived, and I have only a teaspoon more knowledge of their culture than others. I have, indeed, been assimilated - although the material comforts that my family won with such diligent labor have given me some time with which to re-engage with that culture. Inevitably, though, I am distanced from it.

Cultural sacrifice is perhaps the ultimate sacrifice. But it can be made. It has been made. It's the devil's bargain every emigrant makes. What's it worth to you to leave the land that defines you and begin again somewhere else, leaving the culture that shaped you in order to try to support yourself? Obviously my own perspective is biased. Somewhere in the recent past, everyone in my bloodline made the choice to leave. I don't think that they had any less love of their countries, their cultures, or the people they left behind. I think that they simply saw that all things have a price, culture no less than art, or beauty, or food, or clothing, or shelter. If the culture is very valuable, people way pay much to maintain it - but the price will always be there.

Shanglan

 

[cloudy]

Coming from an immigrant background, I will add this: material success does involve sacrifices. The lower one starts on the ladder, the more one sacrifices, and part of that sacrifice may be culture. I speak neither Irish nor Italian. I have only a dim comprehension of the geography of the countries from which my forebears arrived, and I have only a teaspoon more knowledge of their culture than others. I have, indeed, been assimilated - although the material comforts that my family won with such diligent labor have given me some time with which to re-engage with that culture. Inevitably, though, I am distanced from it.

Cultural sacrifice is perhaps the ultimate sacrifice. But it can be made. It has been made. It's the devil's bargain every emigrant makes. What's it worth to you to leave the land that defines you and begin again somewhere else, leaving the culture that shaped you in order to try to support yourself? Obviously my own perspective is biased. Somewhere in the recent past, everyone in my bloodline made the choice to leave. I don't think that they had any less love of their countries, their cultures, or the people they left behind. I think that they simply saw that all things have a price, culture no less than art, or beauty, or food, or clothing, or shelter. If the culture is very valuable, people way pay much to maintain it - but the price will always be there.

Shanglan

I think that's actually the difference, Shang.

American Indians aren't given that choice, not really. They are dispossessed of their culture, their very history, right where they have always lived.

Box, I didn't make the choice, it was made before I was born, but yet I still have paid the price for it. Was it worth it? Mostly not, I think. By not living on the rez, with the rest of the people, my children are another step towards assimilation, and have grown up without even the little bit of tradition that I did. Something precious, and irreplaceable has been lost.

 

[rgraham666]

My family's experience is rather the opposite, Shang.

Of four kids only one can be said to be doing better than my parents.

There's me, whose destined for Potter's Field.

I'm oldest and my next brother down the line is the only one who can be said to doing better. And that took a hit recently when the company he worked for outsourced his department to India. He recently got his nurse's certificate so his income has taken a hit. His SO is a shrink so he's not doing too bad.

Next brother finally bought a house. About the same size as the one I was raised in. But it requires both spouses working and they had to save until their early forties to do so. Still had to go deep into debt regardless.

Sister, the youngest, also got a house recently with her husband. This house is larger, a little, but again both spouses working, hard.

My youngest brother and sister both have two kids. They didn't start having them until their mid thirties. Two each and that's all they're having.

My parents had four kids by their mid thirties, and had a great deal of their mortgage paid off by then. Only my dad had to work.

So whether my generation is better off than my parent's is quite debatable.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think that's actually the difference, Shang.

American Indians aren't given that choice, not really. They are dispossessed of their culture, their very history, right where they have always lived.

I agree that that initial decison was clearly not made by Native Americans, and I agree that it was a terrible wrong perpetrated upon them. However, my comments were in reference to the question of leaving the reservation - essentially, emigrating to world outside of it.

 

[Speedbumps]

I still don't see how americans are supposed to help people who won't try. That is what the argument seems to have come down to.

Spiritual beliefs? If they are going to lose them that easily they can't have been very strong to begin with.

Single parents? try americorps. I forget the url, but if they can get on the internet (you can do it at the workforce or library here, no idea in other places, but I know you can do it in Shiprock NM right outside a rez)

The venomous replies to people who gave good options puzzles me.

I guess the old saw 'you can lead a horse to water' is true.

I live in a very poor area, and I see people all the time who won't accept help, but even if we just gave out free money it wouldn't help them.

The American dream lives as long as one person still cares to dream it.

 

[Alex756]

OK. I also come from people who moved here relatively recently. My Grandfather came over with his family.

They fled their country with nothing basically, and welt through ellis island. My grandfather was a young boy of 6. His dad worked the mines night shift, and did carpentry during the day. They made wine every year up to the governemnt impossed maximum. My dad still remebers when the goverment guy showed up to inspect the wine one day when he was home sick from school.

We did not loose our culture though. Yes we all speak fluant english, we live in America and are Americans. I am a member of the smallest religion according to the latest US census and can not attend a congregation within 2 states. *shrug* I can still follow my beliefs. I can still teach my daughter. I can and will bring her to my hometown to attend the major holidays when I can, and I will comfort her when others tease her for those holidays like they teased me.

My ancestors didn't chose what happened to them either. We didn't stand around in a town center and say, hey lets have hordes from the south come and slaughter us and set up social tensions that will lead to 2 wourld wars devestating us. We didn't decided, yah know, this place could really use some mass graves, lets get an insane dictator. SO I am right there with anyone in being an oppressed people, but my grandpa who came over here at age 6, he died shortly after I was born, working in underground mines does that to a person.

So American Dream alive and well over here. Culture Alive and well. Although the food, lets just say I am not a good cook, but oh well

~Alex

 

[cloudy]

OK. I also come from people who moved here relatively recently. My Grandfather came over with his family.

They fled their country with nothing basically, and welt through ellis island. My grandfather was a young boy of 6. His dad worked the mines night shift, and did carpentry during the day. They made wine every year up to the governemnt impossed maximum. My dad still remebers when the goverment guy showed up to inspect the wine one day when he was home sick from school.

We did not loose our culture though. Yes we all speak fluant english, we live in America and are Americans. I am a member of the smallest religion according to the latest US census and can not attend a congregation within 2 states. *shrug* I can still follow my beliefs. I can still teach my daughter. I can and will bring her to my hometown to attend the major holidays when I can, and I will comfort her when others tease her for those holidays like they teased me.

My ancestors didn't chose what happened to them either. We didn't stand around in a town center and say, hey lets have hordes from the south come and slaughter us and set up social tensions that will lead to 2 wourld wars devestating us. We didn't decided, yah know, this place could really use some mass graves, lets get an insane dictator. SO I am right there with anyone in being an oppressed people, but my grandpa who came over here at age 6, he died shortly after I was born, working in underground mines does that to a person.

So American Dream alive and well over here. Culture Alive and well. Although the food, lets just say I am not a good cook, but oh well

~Alex

...and it's a far different world than when your grandfather immigrated.

I honestly wish it was that damn simple. I suppose we're all just lazy assholes, that's all.

 

[rgraham666]

I did try. And very hard.

And all that energy vanished as if into a great black hole. Poof! Gone!

I'm too much of an individualist to fit in. And a heretic to boot.

We don't like to believe so, but propriety is a very important part of our society and probably the single most important component of success.

As the Japanese saying goes, "It's the nail that sticks out that gets hammered down."

 

[Speedbumps]

...and it's a far different world than when your grandfather immigrated.

I honestly wish it was that damn simple. I suppose we're all just lazy assholes, that's all.

what is so complex?

I am not trying to be abusive. I just don't get what you are saying. They either want to work or they don't.

Are you saying that the subsistance income they get for free is the problem? I can see where that would cause problems with people not wanting to lose free money by getting jobs. (I dont pretend to understand how that works. I just know some people who were on it in the past.)

 

[Speedbumps]

I did try. And very hard.

And all that energy vanished as if into a great black hole. Poof! Gone!

I'm too much of an individualist to fit in. And a heretic to boot.

We don't like to believe so, but propriety is a very important part of our society and probably the single most important component of success.

As the Japanese saying goes, "It's the nail that sticks out that gets hammered down."

Having mental or physical disease that prevents you from working is completely understandable, but as i understand it there are available alternatives for diabled people. I know it is slow to get onto due to abuse by people who really don't need it, and it doesnt make you feel better about being disabled, but at least you can buy food and pay rent.

 

[cloudy]

what is so complex?

I am not trying to be abusive. I just don't get what you are saying. They either want to work or they don't.

Are you saying that the subsistance income they get for free is the problem? I can see where that would cause problems with people not wanting to lose free money by getting jobs. (I dont pretend to understand how that works. I just know some people who were on it in the past.)

okay....here's just one example:

Pine Ridge reservation....it's miles and miles from any kind of job. Most people there do not possess transportation, or at least not transportation reliable enough to drive the distance they'd have to go for work.

Average yearly income there is somewhere around $4,000. Yep, you read that right.

They can't afford heat for their homes, much less transportation. They don't have phones, a lot of the homes don't even have electricity.

They can leave, sure, but it's not like leaving the "old country" where the old country is always there to fall back on, as far as culture, family, etc. go. Once they're gone, it's gone.

What a damn miserable choice that is.

Take me, for example. My grandmother left the rez. I'm lucky that I'm not just as poor as these people. But it's a horrible trade-off. I may have a decent education, and live where I might find a job, but I'm looked at with suspicion if I go back - they don't know me, I don't know them. The traditions that I was raised with weren't all that I should have had - my children's even less. I imagine by the time they have children, there will be nothing left of the Indian in them.

Isn't manifest destiny a wonderful thing?

 

[Speedbumps]

okay....here's just one example:

Pine Ridge reservation....it's miles and miles from any kind of job. Most people there do not possess transportation, or at least not transportation reliable enough to drive the distance they'd have to go for work.

Average yearly income there is somewhere around $4,000. Yep, you read that right.

They can't afford heat for their homes, much less transportation. They don't have phones, a lot of the homes don't even have electricity.

They can leave, sure, but it's not like leaving the "old country" where the old country is always there to fall back on, as far as culture, family, etc. go. Once they're gone, it's gone.

What a damn miserable choice that is.

Take me, for example. My grandmother left the rez. I'm lucky that I'm not just as poor as these people. But it's a horrible trade-off. I may have a decent education, and live where I might find a job, but I'm looked at with suspicion if I go back - they don't know me, I don't know them. The traditions that I was raised with weren't all that I should have had - my children's even less. I imagine by the time they have children, there will be nothing left of the Indian in them.

Isn't manifest destiny a wonderful thing?

There are no phones in the entire place? No payphones or anything?

Playing the 'poor disposessed' card holds no water. There are no people anywhere in the world who aren't part of a people that have been driven from some land somewhere.

Yes, it was wrong.

But even the native Americans were people who had driven out other tribes and taken their land. It is just part of human history that we hope we will some day learn enough to not repeat. It is not part of the issue here.

 

[cloudy]

There are no phones in the entire place? No payphones or anything?

Playing the 'poor disposessed' card holds no water. There are no people anywhere in the world who aren't part of a people that have been driven from some land somewhere.

Yes, it was wrong.

But even the native Americans were people who had driven out other tribes and taken their land. It is just part of human history that we hope we will some day learn enough to not repeat. It is not part of the issue here.

You've read things into my post that I haven't said.

*sigh* Here we go again....

I said nothing about the past, except for the "manifest destiny" thing.

We don't want to assimilate, we don't want to be white. We want to be able to keep our own culture - it's important to us, no matter how UNimportant it is to you.

You don't get it. It's not about the past, it's about finding a way for these people to work, and they DO want to, without making them give up EVERYTHING else.

 

[Speedbumps]

You've read things into my post that I haven't said.

*sigh* Here we go again....

I said nothing about the past, except for the "manifest destiny" thing.

We don't want to assimilate, we don't want to be white. We want to be able to keep our own culture - it's important to us, no matter how UNimportant it is to you.

You don't get it. It's not about the past, it's about finding a way for these people to work, and they DO want to, without making them give up EVERYTHING else.

And the 'manifest destiny' think was most of what my reply was about. I am sorry if you were just doing that as a simple shot, but it seemed to be the keystone of your reply.

How would truck driving make them give up anything? It is a lot of time away from home, but I don't see how that forces them to give up anything. Is it an anti-tech taboo or something?

 

[cloudy]

How would truck driving make them give up anything? It is a lot of time away from home, but I don't see how that forces them to give up anything. Is it an anti-tech taboo or something?

Kinda hard to drive a truck when you don't even have a driver's license.

It's so sad, how people seem to have absolutely no idea what it's really like on some of the reservations in this country.

 

[Liar]

You don't get it. It's not about the past, it's about finding a way for these people to work, and they DO want to, without making them give up EVERYTHING else.

I understand the problem. I'm curious about what a good solution is, though. I mean propositions must have been made by someone somewhere adressing this. How does a sustainable and in the long run self-empowering solution look?

 

[Speedbumps]

Kinda hard to drive a truck when you don't even have a driver's license.

It's so sad, how people seem to have absolutely no idea what it's really like on some of the reservations in this country.

The companies in question will completely pay for the training to get your driver's license. Some of them even teach with audio for people who can't read.

 

[cloudy]

The companies in question will completely pay for the training to get your driver's license. Some of them even teach with audio for people who can't read.

oh, c'mon! You can't even get your driver's license if you don't know how to read!

Go visit a rez, spend some time with the people there, and then come back here and tell me about your "easy" solutions.

Jeezus.

 

[Liar]

The companies in question will completely pay for the training to get your driver's license. Some of them even teach with audio for people who can't read.

Can you get a driver's license without being able to read in the US? How you gonna read the traffic signs?

 

[cloudy]

I understand the problem. I'm curious about what a good solution is, though. I mean propositions must have been made by someone somewhere adressing this. How does a sustainable and in the long run self-empowering solution look?

Some of the tribes are doing outsourcing work for other companies. In fact, I think it was the Oglala Sioux that are implementing a program where they do payroll, word processing, etc., on contract for companies.

It's improving, but it's so slow.

 

[Speedbumps]

Can you get a driver's license without being able to read in the US? How you gonna read the traffic signs?

That is why most signs are iconic. I don't really know how they do it, I just know that I went to truck driing school with a guy who could not read. He got his CDL.

 

[Speedbumps]

Some of the tribes are doing outsourcing work for other companies. In fact, I think it was the Oglala Sioux that are implementing a program where they do payroll, word processing, etc., on contract for companies.

It's improving, but it's so slow.

Good deal I have heard of tribal corporations running casinos and such. Give em a few years and they will own most the land again. Familial loyalty (and I assume tribal) makes for great profits.