American Dream - it's just a dream

[thebullet]

A new study discussed on BBC indicates that the American Dream has become a myth. People in poverty tend to stay in poverty. One is TWICE as likely to dig one's way out of poverty in Europe than in America. America is apparantly far down the list of nations in terms of individual financial mobility.

The reason may be the lack of a safety net. European nations and Canada provide their citizens with a much better safety net than America does. After all, we in America look at the poor as lacking in a work ethic: they deserve to be poor.

So those who are poor remain poor in America.

 

[entitled]

About time they figured that out.

The problem is, that mindset (of the Americans) makes it exceedingly difficult for the poor with good work ethics and drive to break out of the cycle of poverty.

 

[Boxlicker101]

A new study discussed on BBC indicates that the American Dream has become a myth. People in poverty tend to stay in poverty. One is TWICE as likely to dig one's way out of poverty in Europe than in America. America is apparantly far down the list of nations in terms of individual financial mobility.

The reason may be the lack of a safety net. European nations and Canada provide their citizens with a much better safety net than America does. After all, we in America look at the poor as lacking in a work ethic: they deserve to be poor.

So those who are poor remain poor in America.

I think this is basically a load of crap. I don't really know that much about Europe as opposed to the USA in this regard so I hesitate to offer an opinion.

I will say this though. If, by "safety net", you mean welfare or the dole, or whatever it is called, it is more a trap than a net. Until recent reforms, when families got on welfare, they tended to stay on welfare, including future generations. Welfare was essentially anti-family so when a single mother got on welfare, she tended to stay single and on welfare. It actually discouraged getting a job. If a person were to get an entry level job paying minimum wage, they started having less money, which is not exactly encouraging a work ethic.

I won't say all poor people lack a work ethic but certainly some of them do. I will say that most persons who are impoverished are in that situation because of their own bad choices or, in the case of children, those made by their parents. I mean the fifteen year old girl who decided that she could hold onto her boyfriend if she got pregnant and then was surprised when he left town, leaving her with a baby. I mean the young man who is having too much fun to go to school and remains illiterate. I mean others who decide to do similar stupid things and never come close to what they could have accomplished for themselves. In my own case, I mean the teenager who started to drink early because he enjoyed being drunk, lost jobs and ended up on skid row, working at the most menial, dead-end jobs for sub-minimum pay. When I was in my thirties, I got my act together, quit drinking, got a decent job, worked my way through college, got a better job and now am comfortably retired and live in my own house.

I haven't seen the study that was quoted but I would be willing to bet the facts are distorted to fit somebody's pre-conceived notions.

 

[entitled]

Box, i'm going to have to disagree with you on a few things. You do have good points, but...

It was difficult both before the reforms, and is difficult now. Little has actually changed because of them except the paperwork that needs to be filled out. Different forms, same rejection of help. i'm speaking from personal experience here.

Due to the recent reforms, our five member family lives with an income well under the poverty level and receives no federal benefits whatsoever. Before the reforms we were at least eligible for a few things. Our situation is not due to lack of work ethics. The resident asshole (husband) has held the same job for six years. i've personally been pretty much unable to work the jobs that are available because of health reasons. If there were something available in this area that i could do, i would jump at the chance to have that extra income.

Because of recent welfare reforms, it has become even more difficult to try to find an affordable day care service so that i can try to find a job. These reforms have made it nearly impossible to either get find an 'approved' site or to help pay for what little time my children would be in the care of such a service.


With the old service it was a choice whether to say on the system or not. My dad received welfare for a time, and took the leap, eventually getting us away from the system entirely. Under the current system it's become harder to get on the list of people to receive benefits, even for a short time. Some people did abuse the system. Now the system abuses it's power over the people that could use help the most.

 

[rgraham666]

Unfortunately, it is true, Box. This isn't the first study I've seen that states this.

Just a sec, have to look something up.

Ah.

Check out this webpage.

And I have this from the Congressional Budget Office. Between 1979 and 1997, the median income for U.S. families went from $41,400 to $45,100, a nine percent increase. This is adjusted for inflation.

In the same time period the income of families in the top one percent went from $420,200 to $1,016,000, a 140% increase.

Does that mean the American Dream is dead? No, people still believe in it.

Is it more achievable? Not in my opinion.

 

[thebullet]

I won't say all poor people lack a work ethic but certainly some of them do. I will say that most persons who are impoverished are in that situation because of their own bad choices or, in the case of children, those made by their parents. I mean the fifteen year old girl who decided that she could hold onto her boyfriend if she got pregnant and then was surprised when he left town, leaving her with a baby.

Come on, boxlicker, don't you have any more right wing cliches denouncing the poor for wallowing in their own poverty?

Most persons who are impoverished are in that situation because of their own bad choices? Quite right. Those damn fool black people who chose to be the ancestors of slaves. And choosing to have black skin! What idiots! They deserve all the poverty their choices have given them.

Damn, boxlicker, how do you live with a heart made of stone?

 

[mack_the_knife]

That's why the USA still has one of the top 5 standards of living in the world, and the highest home ownership percentage in it's history, aye, the dream is dead. Our poor still live better than most nations' middle-classes (those that have a middle class). I love other countries using our prosperity against us by citing that we have people still living below the poverty level that we set, which would be stunningly high income in most other nations.

How many dirt poor Zimbabweans have a car? How many Tajiks have cable TV? Stop comparing apples and intake manifolds.

Every few months to years, other nations run their little 'America is failing' reports, gleefully extolling all the ways in which the USA is caving in on itself. Well, if we bloody well do, most of the rest of the worlds' economies go with us. Enjoy the ride.

On a brighter note: Should we start thinking of sending UN peacekeepers into Paris? Socialist Utopia, aye, those work so well, don't they?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Come on, boxlicker, don't you have any more right wing cliches denouncing the poor for wallowing in their own poverty?

Most persons who are impoverished are in that situation because of their own bad choices? Quite right. Those damn fool black people who chose to be the ancestors of slaves. And choosing to have black skin! What idiots! They deserve all the poverty their choices have given them.

Damn, boxlicker, how do you live with a heart made of stone?

What right-wing cliches are those? I am saying that if people don't do stupid things or self-defeating things, they will do allright. I'm not saying they will be rich; I'm saying they will not be impoverished.

What ancestors of slaves do you mean? There hasn't been any slavery in the US, accept among undocumented immigrants, for 140 years.

What does black skin have to do with anything? I am reasonably sure that you and everybody else on AH knows persons of all races who have prospered, and they have done so through hard work, and by not "wallowing in their own circumstances" to paraphrase you.

Being black might be something of a disadvantage, but it is not as much of a one as being a wino on Skid Row.

 

[mack_the_knife]

What right-wing cliches are those? I am saying that if people don't do stupid things or self-defeating things, they will do allright. I'm not saying they will be rich; I'm saying they will not be impoverished.

What ancestors of slaves do you mean? There hasn't been any slavery in the US, accept among undocumented immigrants, for 140 years.

What does black skin have to do with anything? I am reasonably sure that you and everybody else on AH knows persons of all races who have prospered, and they have done so through hard work, and by not "wallowing in their own circumstances" to paraphrase you.

Being black might be something of a disadvantage, but it is not as much of a one as being a wino on Skid Row.

Next thing you know, you'll start saying that people are responsible for their own destiny...you know its not our place to determine our fate, it's our governments'...Cradle to Grave, it's up to it to make sure we live happy, sheltered lives with our hands out.

On a personal note, my house is paid off in two years, then I can start building a larger, nicer house, aye, dead dream, fellows. Go hold your hand out and wait for someone to give you a house.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

I think Box raises some excellent points.

When you're talking about a subject that contains as many people as this one, there is not a single, blanket answer that will apply to everyone.

Welfare is a trap in a lot of ways. We've all seen that there are generations of welfare families. People get caught in the cycle of knowing that they don't have to work, the government will meet their basic needs. Some of them don't have a work ethic at all. Why work when you can live for free? Children are raised in this atmosphere, and the lifestyle is perpetuated from generation to generation.

The problem with our "safety net" is that it is set up to be an endless cycle. At times, it rewards people that get themselves deeper into the cycle. I saw a piece on 20/20 once that showed a welfare mom that decided to have another kid because it would increase her welfare payments, and allow her to get a bigger apartment in public housing. Is this the way any of us intend the safety net to work? That's the way it works here.

I think the American dream is still there for anyone willing to work for it. Like him or not, Colin Powell is the epitome of the American dream. A poor black child, the son of immigrants that chose to succeed.

Another of our problems is that the American dream requires alot of work to accomplish. It isn't easy, but it can be done. Our society is so centered on instant gratification now that alot of people don't want to put in the long term effort required. It's all about right now. We expect instant results/satisfaction on anything we do. The American dream isn't about instant results, it's about prolonged dedication to the goal.

 

[rgraham666]

That's why the USA still has one of the top 5 standards of living in the world, and the highest home ownership percentage in it's history, aye, the dream is dead. Our poor still live better than most nations' middle-classes (those that have a middle class). I love other countries using our prosperity against us by citing that we have people still living below the poverty level that we set, which would be stunningly high income in most other nations.

How many dirt poor Zimbabweans have a car? How many Tajiks have cable TV? Stop comparing apples and intake manifolds.

Every few months to years, other nations run their little 'America is failing' reports, gleefully extolling all the ways in which the USA is caving in on itself. Well, if we bloody well do, most of the rest of the worlds' economies go with us. Enjoy the ride.

On a brighter note: Should we start thinking of sending UN peacekeepers into Paris? Socialist Utopia, aye, those work so well, don't they?

And that homeownership is accompanied by the largest debt load in history.

That standard of living is averaged, and as I pointed out, if you take the higher end out, the average falls quite a bit.

And the page I posted wasn't comparing the U.S. to Tajikstan, but the U.S. to Europe and South Africa.

And I'm well aware if the States goes, so goes the world. It happened before, and in remarkably similar circumstances.

 

[mack_the_knife]

And that homeownership is accompanied by the largest debt load in history.

That standard of living is averaged, and as I pointed out, if you take the higher end out, the average falls quite a bit.

And the page I posted wasn't comparing the U.S. to Tajikstan, but the U.S. to Europe and South Africa.

And I'm well aware if the States goes, so goes the world. It happened before, and in remarkably similar circumstances.

I can't speak for people who took on more debt than was good for them, they're twits. I took out a six year mortgage and bought a house I could afford, if they did not, their mistake, however, they still have houses right now, that are theirs, and unless they default, they will continue to have them.

That average, even decapitating the top 10% still dusts 90% or more of the world with their top 10% cut off.

I have a quarter acre of property, two cars, three computers, all the food I need to be overweight, and burn electricity at leisure. Get excellent medical care at need, and a dozen other little measures of wealth. Yet, me and my family of 4 is living without government assistance (other than getting the hell out of my wallet) on an income that is only about 60% of the national average. Please to explain why I live as well or better than most euros and only make about double the poverty level. I am not a priveleged guy, most of the folk doing my job are black men, and I know they make the same wages, so it cannot be that.

Of course the US will fail to measure up to impossible standards that are skewed to make it look bad. Maybe its just the euro's trying to make themselves feel better about living in cramped apartments, driving miniature cars (if they own one at all) and paying exorbitant prices for food. I think I'll just stay right here in unfair USA, dreaming of building that 2,500 square foot house I want.

 

[thebullet]

mack the knife said:

That's why the USA still has one of the top 5 standards of living in the world, and the highest home ownership percentage in it's history, aye, the dream is dead. Our poor still live better than most nations' middle-classes (those that have a middle class). I love other countries using our prosperity against us by citing that we have people still living below the poverty level that we set, which would be stunningly high income in most other nations.

Do you actually believe the crap that you are posting? If you look back at the original post you will note that no mention was made of Africa or Asia or Australia or Antartica or South America. The original post talked about Europe. Europe's poor are far more likely to rise out of their poverty than America's poor. Simple as that.

In America there are 3 (THREE) counties in the entire country where it is possible to actually live off of the minimum wage. Everywhere else it is impossible to survive on what we jokingly call a minimum wage.

You self righteous idealogogs pound on your chests and say how great it is to be an American, while many millions of Americans can't afford healthcare, while many millions of Americans are living below what even we pitiless rich consider to be the poverty level.

Someone has to clean your fuckin' toilets, Mack the Knife. Someone has to ask you if you want fries with that. Someone is picking up your garbage. If they weren't, then you would be living in a sea of trash.

But you don't feel that these people deserve to have a living wage. They can work a second job. Their wifes can work a couple of other minimum wage or under the table jobs. Grandma can take care of the kids if they can't afford child care.

What's the matter with these lazy poor? Don't they know that you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps with hardly a college education and a father who was a professional and a mother who stayed home and took care of the kids?

These people don't deserve to live the American Dream because they are so lazy!


By the way: $23 an hour. The US minimum wage in 1970 compared to the average CEO salary in 1970: if we extropolate to 2005, and the minimum wage kept pace with the average CEO salary, minimum wage would be $23/hour. Instead it's what? $5.15/hour.

That seems fair.

 

[cloudy]

mack the knife said:
Do you actually believe the crap that you are posting? If you look back at the original post you will note that no mention was made of Africa or Asia or Australia or Antartica or South America. The original post talked about Europe. Europe's poor are far more likely to rise out of their poverty than America's poor. Simple as that.

In America there are 3 (THREE) counties in the entire country where it is possible to actually live off of the minimum wage. Everywhere else it is impossible to survive on what we jokingly call a minimum wage.

You self righteous idealogogs pound on your chests and say how great it is to be an American, while many millions of Americans can't afford healthcare, while many millions of Americans are living below what even we pitiless rich consider to be the poverty level.

Someone has to clean your fuckin' toilets, Mack the Knife. Someone has to ask you if you want fries with that. Someone is picking up your garbage. If they weren't, then you would be living in a sea of trash.

But you don't feel that these people deserve to have a living wage. They can work a second job. Their wifes can work a couple of other minimum wage or under the table jobs. Grandma can take care of the kids if they can't afford child care.

What's the matter with these lazy poor? Don't they know that you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps with hardly a college education and a father who was a professional and a mother who stayed home and took care of the kids?

These people don't deserve to live the American Dream because they are so lazy!

Yeah, he believes it.

Let's not forget the lazy injuns on the reservations that just get everything handed to them, but won't get off their ass to find a job - according to those like boxlicker, and mack-the-knife.

 

[thebullet]

Let's not forget the lazy injuns on the reservations that just get everything handed to them, but won't get off their ass to find a job - according to those like boxlicker, and mack-the-knife.

Cloudy, of course you are correct. Those damn injuns, if only they would take advantage of all that has been offered to them over the years, they would be rich.

Then again, maybe if they held onto the land that the government stole from them over the years, they might be rich anyway.

It's the American Dream.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

In America there are 3 (THREE) counties in the entire country where it is possible to actually live off of the minimum wage. Everywhere else it is impossible to survive on what we jokingly call a minimum wage.

Here's the trap of minimum wage. Part of the formula for "poverty" in this country is based on minimum wage. Minimum wage sets the low point of the economic scale. Poverty is based on a predetermined range of coming within that minimum point.

If minimum wage goes up, so does the poverty line. I'll use round numbers just for sake of illustration. Minimum wage pays $10k per year, poverty level is set at $15k per year. If minimum wage is increased by 20% to $12k per year, the level that is considered poverty will increase by 20% also. That 20% increase means that $18k per year is now in poverty. Someone making $17k wasn't in poverty last week, but as soon as minimum wage goes up, they are suddenly in poverty.

Then you get people saying "How is it that this many people are in poverty? We need to raise minimum wage to help get these people out of poverty." Then the cycle starts all over again, because a whole new group of people are added to the poverty list when the level changes.

Another by product of raising minimum wage is that it devalues everyone elses money that makes more than minimum wage. If minimum wage is $5 per hour, and I'm making $15 per hour, I'm making 3x minimum. If minimum goes up, my 3X drops. I lose wealth and buying power. My salary hasn't gone up at all, but prices all around me have gone up. Prices had to be increased to offset the extra money being paid out in payroll. I have essentially become poorer.

 

[rgraham666]

Here's the trap of minimum wage. Part of the formula for "poverty" in this country is based on minimum wage. Minimum wage sets the low point of the economic scale. Poverty is based on a predetermined range of coming within that minimum point.

If minimum wage goes up, so does the poverty line. I'll use round numbers just for sake of illustration. Minimum wage pays $10k per year, poverty level is set at $15k per year. If minimum wage is increased by 20% to $12k per year, the level that is considered poverty will increase by 20% also. That 20% increase means that $18k per year is now in poverty. Someone making $17k wasn't in poverty last week, but as soon as minimum wage goes up, they are suddenly in poverty.

Then you get people saying "How is it that this many people are in poverty? We need to raise minimum wage to help get these people out of poverty." Then the cycle starts all over again, because a whole new group of people are added to the poverty list when the level changes.

Another by product of raising minimum wage is that it devalues everyone elses money that makes more than minimum wage. If minimum wage is $5 per hour, and I'm making $15 per hour, I'm making 3x minimum. If minimum goes up, my 3X drops. I lose wealth and buying power. My salary hasn't gone up at all, but prices all around me have gone up. Prices had to be increased to offset the extra money being paid out in payroll. I have essentially become poorer.

Um, no offense Wildcard, but huh?

I've never seen the monetary level at which poverty begins linked to the minimum wage.

And I fail to see how people making more money affects your buying power. If it was true, then a rich person, whose income will probably rise higher and faster than yours would also affected your buying power adversely and even more so.

 

[mack_the_knife]

If relying upon the labor of my own arms makes me a pompous idealogue, then I suppose I am. I've tried and I'm having some limited success in life. That is all it took, effort. I don't have to cite proof, I AM PROOF. I challenge you to show me what was given me that isn't being given to the poor people of the nation that has let me to my current circumstances. White skin? Makes not a whit of difference to trucking companies, as I said, most of my coworkers aren't white either. What's stoping people from doing it? or other jobs like it? I have no fucking idea. But something is, OTHER than them being held back.

As far as being 'trapped' somewhere. Many major trucking companies, desperate for new drivers, will pay for a bus ticket to their central terminal, put you up in a motel, and train you for four to six weeks to do the job, in exchange you commit to giving them six months to a year of service at a reduced (but still above 20k a year) wage. NOW WHO THE FUCK CAN'T DO THAT? Driving a truck ain't brain surgery. If they have a shitty driving record or DUI's on their record, who's fault is that? If they aren't willing to live away from their family for a while, who's fault is that? If they cannot be bothered to pick up a phone and dial a 1-800 number, who's fault is that?

No. You're right. I have little sympathy for people when opportunities are all but shoved in their faces and they choose not to avail themselves of them. You can go on believing that the majority of the poor are that way because other people force them to be, but I know better.

There might be a tiny minority of them who cannot due to mental problems or physical disability, and I've no problem helping those folk out. But to those who simply won't bust their ass as hard as I have to get a little ahead, fuck them.

I don't pity professional victims.

 

[cloudy]

yep, Mack, you're pompous all right.

Go visit a rez sometime, and tell me how lazy those people are.

Jeez, I wish you could hear yourself, and understand what an ass you sound like.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

Um, no offense Wildcard, but huh?

I've never seen the monetary level at which poverty begins linked to the minimum wage.

And I fail to see how people making more money affects your buying power. If it was true, then a rich person, whose income will probably rise higher and faster than yours would also affected your buying power adversely and even more so.

I'll see if I can find the link. I read it awhile back, and it was pretty detailed. I can't remember verbatim, but it was something along the lines of Poverty is defined as 3 times the price of food for an average family with minimum wage being a part of the determining factor for food prices. That's why I said minimum wage was a part of the formula.

An increase in labor costs will be passed on to the consumer. An increase in minimum wage increases labor costs across the board. Prices of goods will go up, but my salary will still be the same. I have lost buying power.

 

[mack_the_knife]

yep, Mack, you're pompous all right.

Go visit a rez sometime, and tell me how lazy those people are.

Jeez, I wish you could hear yourself, and understand what an ass you sound like.

1 (800) 251-6291 extension '0', ask for recruiting when the operator answers. They are an equal opportunity employer. Need to have no felonies or DUI's though. If you've any sort of work history and a reasonably clean driving record, they'll hire you over the phone and mail. Pass that around and please to give them tractor number 4668 as a reference, so I can get a $500 bonus per person that signs on (they're that desperate).

What is stopping them? This is just one possible profession. They transport you, put you up, feed you, advance you pay, and train you. Just how much fucking easier does it get? They don't even demand you live any certain place, they'll swing you by wherever you live for time off no matter where it is.

They only ask that you work, and promise to do so a year. That number right there will hire upwards of 100 people per month, just ONE truck company, of hundreds with much the same policies. They predict to need another million drivers in the next 10 years as old ones retire and freigh gets heavier.

What the hell do you want? Me to do the fucking work, too?

 

[cloudy]

1 (800) 251-6291 extension '0', ask for recruiting when the operator answers. They are an equal opportunity employer. Need to have no felonies or DUI's though. If you've any sort of work history and a reasonably clean driving record, they'll hire you over the phone and mail. Pass that around and please to give them tractor number 4668 as a reference, so I can get a $500 bonus per person that signs on (they're that desperate).

What is stopping them? This is just one possible profession. They transport you, put you up, feed you, advance you pay, and train you. Just how much fucking easier does it get? They don't even demand you live any certain place, they'll swing you by wherever you live for time off no matter where it is.

They only ask that you work, and promise to do so a year. That number right there will hire upwards of 100 people per month, just ONE truck company, of hundreds with much the same policies. They predict to need another million drivers in the next 10 years as old ones retire and freigh gets heavier.

What the hell do you want? Me to do the fucking work, too?

So....those people are supposed to give up their families, give up their complete culture, so that YOU can get a $500 bonus? Do I have that right?

You fucking amaze me.

 

[mack_the_knife]

So....those people are supposed to give up their families, give up their complete culture, so that YOU can get a $500 bonus? Do I have that right?

You fucking amaze me.

Oh, driving a truck is a violation of their culture, and them spending 10 days out and 3 days at home is giving up their family, when they are providing for them? Bullshit! If I can do it, they can do it, I have a family, too, you know, and they mean just as much to me as anyone else's does them.

Sacrifice means just that. Jeez, I'm supposed to actually not inconvenience you any when you want to work? Or are you just saying they're too good to do the kind of work I'm doing? Arrogant Victim Bitch. I honestly cannot believe you think you're too damn good to do the work I do for a living, I guess that shows what the cause of the problem is.

You fucking amaze me.

 

[cloudy]

Oh, driving a truck is a violation of their culture, and them spending 10 days out and 3 days at home is giving up their family, when they are providing for them? Bullshit! If I can do it, they can do it, I have a family, too, you know, and they mean just as much to me as anyone else's does them.

Sacrifice means just that. Jeez, I'm supposed to actually not inconvenience you any when you want to work?

You fucking amaze me.

It's a totally different culture, and some of these people are holy men/holy women, and they need to be with their people. The fact that you think assimilation is just hunky-dory makes it very plain that you're not only pompous, but that you're a bigot, too.

How convenient for those who prefer to believe that there aren't anymore Indians. Go ahead, take what little is left, why not?

 

[Wildcard Ky]

Something else that's not being mentioned as far as a job/future for people is the military.

I mentioned Colin Powell earlier. He was a son of poor immigrants living in a not too great part of NYC. He joined the military and look at how far it got him.

While in the military I met people from every back ground. One of my best friends was from a very poor dirt farming area of the Mississippi delta. He wanted a better life, and joined the Air Force. He will retire next year.

I was also good friends with a guy straight off the reservation. He was as poor as they come. We went through Boot camp together. When we were allowed to make our first phone call home, he didn't call anyone. No one he knew had a telephone. He will retire next year as well.

My son just graduated high school this past spring. He didn't want to go to college, and doesn't have any marketable job skills. He knew that he needed to do something, so he enlisted. He made this choice on his own. I had nothing to do with it. He's in boot camp right now.

That opportunity is there for anyone that wants it.