Am I really the only person who finds

[AngelaSaxon]

This is why I don't care for stories involving forced oral. I can't imagine a man putting his penis in the jaws of a person who didn't want it there. Actually, I can: the original Wes Craven "Last House on the Left." The mother's revenge still makes me cringe.

Obviously one can think of or could at least find examples from fiction and reality that don't just rest on the literary trope of pretending women forget they mostly have teeth, but very often NC/R fictions here rely on everyone just agreeing to pretend it's not an issue - the comparison I think I might have made was the long history of sitcoms having people wrestle with their emotions about an unexpected pregnancy, with both the makers of the tv episode and the audience tacitly agreeing that abortion doesn't exist in this parallel universe.

Most of the obvious ways to get around the existence of teeth and jaws able to exert enough force to slice through meat are about threats of violence, and often groups of more than one person doing the coercing.

But if I think of real world examples in which people got away with forced oral sex, it's usually a more manipulative situation in which a woman suddenly finds herself with a massive choice - to let it happen or bloodily kill or at least maim someone. That there's not much in between makes this a more difficult choice in the moment than anger or seemingly plausible pragmatism might suggest. Especially if you are in a situation in which you have no reason to think - certainly no ability to be certain - that your life is at stake, or that there's a probability of serious injury.

In other words, in real life examples I can think of, it's the opposite of the fictional solution I invoked just before - if there isn't a plausible threat of additional violence of the type you see in "bite me and you lose all your teeth" tropes here, or "be good or I slit your throat" versions, the odds of a woman choosing what can feel like a massive escalation go, so to speak, down, whether or not they should.

In one example with which I'm familiar, a woman was contracted to perform in a porn video, which included oral sex but not throat- or face-fucking, and the people involved, both the performer and the people involved in this production who were present for the shoot, ignored the unambiguous gestures they'd previously agreed would be the non-verbal stop signal.

They were very aggressive and in multiple senses in violation of the agreement about performing, including obstructing her airways which was very much not something she'd agreed to. But she never thought she was at risk of death from deliberate violence or even negligence. The de facto decision to not sever this guy's penis wasn't her giving consent, or being unaware of the option - not everyone finds it easy to bloodily maim people, even people they are currently passionately hating.

I had a friend who spent some time in the military, and he once explained to me that the purpose of training isn't just to give people skills and knowledge in relation to killing; it's also about increasing the proportion of people who in battle will kill. That for centuries militaries have known that whatever you do, however much you define failing to try to kill as "cowardice in the face of the enemy", there's always a portion of those soldiers who are suddenly in that situation and just don't, just won't. They fire in the air, or deliberately miss the enemy, even if this means that they themselves get shot. This is more true with conscripted people, but is actually true for volunteers as well.

The purpose of training and of almost everything they did was both to keep that portion as low as possible, and as much as possible to define that refusal to kill as cowardice, treason, disloyalty. Maybe it even is sometimes, but also making people more willing to kill can be quite a difficult task...

Incidentally, Australia isn't and wasn't then particularly favorable to porn production, and Victoria isn't and really wasn't an exception.

But also this incident took place not that long after a court case in which it was found that someone who had raped a sex worker was guilty only of theft or fraud, because she sold sex and this was like shoplifting from her metaphorical store. I.e. her body.

If those guys making porn were maybe at most only going to be guilty of the civil matter of violating the details of a work contract... well...

This was before I noticed the porn phenomenon of videos of highly abusive sex targeted at women often literally labelled as "feminists" in particular, but the people involved would probably have fit in with that tendency, if porn production had really continued in Australia in its earlier forms. (By 'literally' I mean they'll make the woman wear a shirt with the word "feminist" on it...)

Where was I...? Oh yeah, plausibility of forced oral sex.

A single guy violently drags you into an alley, odds are relatively high one might choose your own violent self defence.

But a lot of situations of coercion and really of violence are experienced as much more murky, and that does create a space in which such things can and do happen.

It's not a particularly rare phenomenon for any given woman to have at some point had the experience of agreeing to go down on a guy only to find the guy deciding that face-fucking is his favoured path. At some level we have the power to maim most of these guys, but most of them are still walking around, penis intact...

 

[SomaSlave]

I've never cared for blurred boundaries when it comes to consent, especially in movies and on TV, where people seem to get many of their views of appropriate behavior, which is worse than silly. I think of Richard Dreyfuss' line in The Goodbye Girl, "Your lips say 'no, no,' but your eyes say, 'yes, yes'." That seems to me to be one small step removed from, "She was asking for it," which, IMHO, should be grounds for instant castration.

In that spirit, here's a modest proposal (feel free to use it in a story): We don't allow people behind the wheel of a car until they've established they can drive it properly. Perhaps we should outfit all men with a chastity device that can only be opened when they've passed a Sexual Ethics course. Just as moving violations can result in the suspension of a driver's license, violations of the Sexual Ethics standards should be subject to the violator being put in chastity for a given period of time.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

Just for anyone who thinks I'm a weird hypocrite for implicitly being critical of all these tropes common in the NC/R section but still having a kink for literary NC erotica, a story was recently published by a first time writer here which in some way or other includes almost all of those tropes and is absolutely not a subtle work of critical reflection and is completely absurd and I kind of love it.

'Ella's Locker Room' by castorrodham2019.

https://www.literotica.com/s/ellas-locker-room

it starts off as a rewrite and expansion of the 'Charlotte's Got Game' stories by Grandflasher C.

https://www.literotica.com/s/charlotte-s-got-game-ch-01

It's so gloriously over-the-top that I can't find it within myself to be offended. I did, however, get bored, and annoyed with myself for not seeing it coming, when the biggest change from the original story happens a few pages in and Ella starts loudly proclaiming some of the least believable dialogue on a site saturated with not exactly naturalistic dialogue.

"Damn, you do love my big dick, uh?" one of the rapists declares after a few pages, because of course he does, and of course she yells back: "Yes, Bill, I fucking do! You're a son-of-a-bitch, but a son-of-a-bitch with BIG. THICK. MARVELOUS. COCK!"

There's another dozen pages after that but that moment was when I started skimming, not even skimming for the possibility of something entertaining or arousing, but just because I knew I'd possibly write this and was just checking that the new author's primary shift in characterisation was to make the central female character, well, that.

Oh well lol.

 

[AlinaX]

Bill was cursed. Cursed with a dick so monstrous in aspect that no one, and certainly no woman, could regard it with anything short of abhorrence. Never once had a woman consented to its touch, not even when he had offered to pay handsomely - or twice the going rate, at least. But he was blessed too, for any woman who was forced into an intimate acquaintance with his gnarled and brutal member would quickly become consumed with a passionate hunger for it. His favourite moment in any conquest was on hearing their cries of frantic denial give way to startled ecstasy. "Stop! Stop, oh please, sto-o-a-a-ur-r, holy fuck that feels good! More! Feed me more of that -"

'Marvelous'? Seriously? That's kinda funny.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

'Marvelous'? Seriously? That's kinda funny.

I think the absurd, relentless, over-the-top commitment to unreflectively reproducing every ridiculous NC/R trope but turned up to eleven is... well not exciting or arousing as such but it's certainly in its own way a simultaneously charming and repulsive performance, often like the author is so buried in this fantasy that he doesn't think to proofread, eager as he no doubt is to get this eighteen page onslaught of dumbness out to the public.

 

[Breastobsessed84]

I hate when a nc/r story turns consensual. It's like the author suddenly feels guilty or ashamed of the content. Plus, that's not why I'm reading it in the first place.

 

[AlinaX]

Sir, you do not have my consent for what you are doing to me. That said, if you stop now, I will kill you.

 

[WCSGarland]

Sir, you do not have my consent for what you are doing to me. That said, if you stop now, I will kill you.

the seed of a story in that

 

[AlinaX]

the seed of a story in that

I don't give you my consent to write it, but if you write it anyway, and write it hard, I dare say I'll end up enjoying it.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

I swear to god this was the first story I'd read days and it was just something which appeared on the 'Random Stories' section of the NC/R page, but 'Working With Christina' by juliecuntagious is like someone went back in time and modelled what they wrote on almost everything I've talked about disliking...

Especially when I got to this paragraph:

.I really am a slut she thought. She could have protested more, and she was disgusted with herself that she had enjoyed it.In fact, she thought bitterly, it was the best orgasm I ever had!

Of course it was, Incredibly Realistically Written Woman. Of course it was.

I understand that not everyone despises this stuff as much as I do, but I'm bewildered that it.appears so often in a way that suggests people out there find their experience heightened if the woman says these exact words. Like a magic incantation which must be repeated with each story: oh I've realised I'm a slut, oh my rapists gave me the greatest orgasm of my life, and repeat.

I mean, there's another story in the NC/R section which ends with the words "Maybe I really am a slut... His slut." It's the more romantic version.

There's another in the NC/R section in which the disciplinary husband and 'slut wife" have this exchange:

"You really are a slut," I said, huffing.

"Oh, yes," Mary said, twisting her nipple with her free hand, eyes closed. "I really am a slut."

Of course, a lot are organised around the idea of 'making'.someone into a 'slut' which usually turns out to be very easy because whatever the guy wants them to be and want turns out to be what they really deep down wished to be and want anyway - mostly subservience to that guy apparently. Do people flip a coin to decide whether or not to put these stories in the NC/R section or the BDSM section?

Guess which section this is from:

What is it about me she thought? I really am a slut getting turned on by all this abuse. It was true, with each stripe of the cane she became more and more excited even though tears of pain were running down her face.

 

[SomaSlave]

The assumption appears to be it the woman has an orgasm, then it's not really rape or abuse, because she enjoyed it. It's a variation on the evil idea that whatever brings pleasure to a woman is something she wants, no matter how she got it. <snark>After all, good girls don't like sex. </snark>

The reason I'm troubled by that sort of story is that it reflects the attitudes of far too many men and is reflected in some of the appalling defenses made in rape investigations and trials.

And, to add another angle, there are far too many GM stories premised on a straight man discovering he's gay after being raped by a man or group of men and discovering he liked it. It's interesting and disturbing that those stories are allowed there rather than NC/R.

I've been reading Juliette by the Marquis de Sade lately. When you get past the bad porn writing and the constant stream of atrocities, you'll find many more pages of his philosophy and a world view which largely explains this kind of NC writing and which, sadly, largely explains the world in which we find ourselves today.

Please excuse my rambling...I have a low threshold for misogynistic writing.

 

[ChuckWolf]

Am I really the only person who finds all capacity to enjoy a story disappears the moment I get to the bit where someone writes the central female character as thinking:

"Ohmygod I'm being betrayed by my body, I'm getting wet against my will/when my ideas of my own sexuality say I shouldn't, am I a slut who wants to be dominated, who wants to obey this person growling manly instructions at me? I do! I am! I'm joyfully subservient and obedient!" etc...

I'd mention a particular story but in all honesty it feels like hundreds, and not in the BDSM section...

I know some women write broadly similar things, but I feel like the massive misinterpretation of the meaning of a vagina lubricating has to be a manifestation of something guys think or pretend to believe, surely?

I don't know, maybe it's a convenient short-hand in erotic writing, like implicitly pretending people don't have teeth whenever writing a blowjob scene.

But it feels closer to the ones that aren't just convenient for writing but convenient for fitting into particular... views.

Like some guy read that some women orgasm while being raped and ever since that's been a shorthand for whatever they wish - she loves being treated that way/discovers she's a sub, or proving a woman is a 'slut' (a creature more fictional than a futa) - and of course the orgasm forced upon a woman is always the most mind-blowing and sexuality-changing of her life. (Comparison with the actual experience of women who have had this happen would distinctly suggest otherwise but comparison would also be in bad taste. Like comparing superheroes getting powers from radiation to the actual experiences of people living around Hiroshima at the end of WW2...)

Anyway, like I say I didn't want to name a particular story for including that initial paragraph, but...am I the only one who is wrenched out of a story every time that paragraph appears?

Well, not really.

The premise is kinda hot and, if executed well and with some originality, could still work.

 

[Breastobsessed84]

I'm here for the stuff normal people don't like. I want it to be disgusting, horrifying, maybe even violent. Fulfill the fantasy.

 

[AngelaSaxon]

I'm here for the stuff normal people don't like. I want it to be disgusting, horrifying, maybe even violent. Fulfill the fantasy.

I can't tell if that would mean you prefer someone in such stories to suddenly discover how much they love being dominated etc or if it means you'd prefer them to NOT do the sudden 180 thing... your description could go either way... because in this context the precise content of 'normal people' might not be as intuitively obvious as your message seems to imply?

 

[Breastobsessed84]

I can't tell if that would mean you prefer someone in such stories to suddenly discover how much they love being dominated etc or if it means you'd prefer them to NOT do the sudden 180 thing... your description could go either way... because in this context the precise content of 'normal people' might not be as intuitively obvious as your message seems to imply?

I don't want them to discover they like it, or give in to it. If I'm reading non consent, I want non consent.

 

[midnight_doctor_2]

I'm convinced it's possible to be published in that section without turning all women into people who secretly yearn to be dominated AT ALL, and without turning all the guys into men smugly knowing this essential truth about what we'll become if they fuck us in the correct manly fashion lol - neither the crude physical-response-converts-us version or the subtle psychology of bringing out these supposed desires.

Women who aren't remotely like that exist, a lot, pretty sure we're the vast majority since this version of being a woman is less real than furries - and I demand our representation in horny tales of sexual opportunism!

I will die on this hill, if only because I got so sick of reaching that point where she does a 180 and having to stop reading, and then I got sick of skipping ahead not very far looking for that moment before even starting and yep there it is, often with the exact same words, over and over...

I agree that the rule as people understand it is one of the factors at work in making the NC/R section so filled with bad BDSM cliches, but it's far from the only one.

That rule makes sense to stop a flood of grotesquely violent stories. I just don't think avoiding these cliches requires levels of brutality any higher than exists in these stories already.

Remember George Tasker? The rule existed when he wrote his truly absurd NC stories and no-one was finding their vagina lubricating a path to joyful subservience in those...I think...

You take the stories too seriously. All are basically 100% ficition. Most guys think they are studs, while the woman is secretly smiling and saying, "No you're not."

 

[Craighalbert]

I understand that not everyone despises this stuff as much as I do, but I'm bewildered that it.appears so often in a way that suggests people out there find their experience heightened if the woman says these exact words. Like a magic incantation which must be repeated with each story: oh I've realised I'm a slut, oh my rapists gave me the greatest orgasm of my life, and repeat.

Authors feeling like it's almost mandatory to include these cliches in every story rings true. Kind of like cheating stories have the obligatory scene where the loving and dutiful wife / mother only needs to see one glimpse of her future lover's comically large dick to become a stammering mush brain who'll gladly let any harm come to her family as long as she can keep getting dicked down.

Of course, a lot are organised around the idea of 'making'.someone into a 'slut' which usually turns out to be very easy because whatever the guy wants them to be and want turns out to be what they really deep down wished to be and want anyway - mostly subservience to that guy apparently.

The thrill of "corrupting" a woman is a huge part of it. Look at Sophie Rain, the top earning model on OnlyFans who advertises herself as being religious and holding off sex till marriage. Naturally, by drawing attention to the fact that she doesn't want to have sex for religious reasons, millions of men are subscribing to her in the hopes that they'll get to see her "give in"

 

[WCSGarland]

Kind of like cheating stories have the obligatory scene where the loving and dutiful wife / mother only needs to see one glimpse of her future lover's comically large dick to become a stammering mush brain who'll gladly let any harm come to her family as long as she can keep getting dicked down.

Martian Slut Ray

 

[HotelPancake]

This sort of thing is my bag, baby.

It's never a guy who's the antagonist, though. It's usually other women. But they have to be unappealing, or repellent. Fat, or ugly, or old, or butch, or any combination of them. Bonus points if they're related!

Or any sort of 'good girl/bad girl' dynamic. Could be rivals, or enemies. Supervillainess/Superheroine, Evil Queen/Snow White, Witch/Princess. Vampiress/Country girl. You get the drift. At the end the 'good' partner's mind is twisted so they turn to evil also.

Other than that it's women with aliens, or robots, or monsters, or sentient plant/tentacle creatures. In the end they just can't resist!

Alas, I'm no writer. Grok isn't bad at writing these scenarios, though.

 

[calmlikeabomb]

I think you are absolutely spot on @AngelaSaxon and I think the problem lies with the skill on the part of the writer, as well as the inability to address the topic with any kind of nuance.

I have LARPed consensual "non consent" a few times, (with very clear boundries of safe words etc), and there is a subset of women who do enjoy the idea BECAUSE they have power over the situation. Nancy Friday discussed it at length in her books about women's sexual fantasies and she emphasized how the idea of giving up control in the right circumstances CAN feel empowering and cathartic, but only because the woman has established her power and consent at the boundaries, and her whole experience is enclosed within those boundaries.

Now, I'll be honest that as a guy, the idea of a woman being turned on while being ravished is kinda exciting, but with the caveat that there is a clear distinction between what might excite me as a fantasy vs what I would actually want to be a part of in real life.

Now I don't know what's the ideal solution here, because writing as a medium has its own limitations (so does porn, which is basically sexual pro wrestling at this point), but the boundary I sometimes set for myself in my fantasies and writing is the idea of consent as duty (again, it's a guy speaking, I'm gonna mess it up more than I will get it right).

For instance, the maid who consents to warm her master's bed to save her husband from the cops might decide to not enjoy herself, but if the master treats her differently from her husband, she might begin to listen to her body more than to her mind. It's going to happen only once anyway, her husband will never find out, and she is being treated in a way she has never been treated before. Her mindspace will be very different from say a woman assaulted in an alley.

Again, I agree with you completely about how some of these stories are absurdely unrealistic almost to the point of parody (and bad parody at that, not even the good kind where you can enjoy it knowing everything is been done with a wink and a sly smile), but I don't know if there is a set solution that will work for everyone.

 

[Noor]

Am I really the only person who finds all capacity to enjoy a story disappears the moment I get to the bit where someone writes the central female character as thinking:

"Ohmygod I'm being betrayed by my body, I'm getting wet against my will/when my ideas of my own sexuality say I shouldn't, am I a slut who wants to be dominated, who wants to obey this person growling manly instructions at me? I do! I am! I'm joyfully subservient and obedient!" etc...

I'd mention a particular story but in all honesty it feels like hundreds, and not in the BDSM section...

I know some women write broadly similar things, but I feel like the massive misinterpretation of the meaning of a vagina lubricating has to be a manifestation of something guys think or pretend to believe, surely?

I don't know, maybe it's a convenient short-hand in erotic writing, like implicitly pretending people don't have teeth whenever writing a blowjob scene.

But it feels closer to the ones that aren't just convenient for writing but convenient for fitting into particular... views.

Like some guy read that some women orgasm while being raped and ever since that's been a shorthand for whatever they wish - she loves being treated that way/discovers she's a sub, or proving a woman is a 'slut' (a creature more fictional than a futa) - and of course the orgasm forced upon a woman is always the most mind-blowing and sexuality-changing of her life. (Comparison with the actual experience of women who have had this happen would distinctly suggest otherwise but comparison would also be in bad taste. Like comparing superheroes getting powers from radiation to the actual experiences of people living around Hiroshima at the end of WW2...)

Anyway, like I say I didn't want to name a particular story for including that initial paragraph, but...am I the only one who is wrenched out of a story every time that paragraph appears?

Not the only person. These are usually stories written by guys with limited sex experience.

 

[GoodnessO]

Exactly why I cannot write or read non consent ( a word I also do not like. Call it what it is, it's rape. I do not like polite euphemisms). It does pull you out of the story.

Exactly! And I find the apparent popularity of rape stories to be a sad comment on our collective social psyche.

 

[H. Jekyll]

It may or may not be a sad comment on the times. I disagree because I don't think the collective social psych has changed much. What turns people on, today, in private, did so in ages past. And "rapey" romance novels are enormously popular among their mostly-women readers. If in Lit stories the victims keep finding themselves loving a good rape, put it down to the lack of ability and writing experience of the authors. I admit to liking a good rape scene. Problem is -- there are so very few "good" ones.

 

[JedNtheMtns]

Am I really the only person who finds all capacity to enjoy a story disappears the moment I get to the bit where someone writes the central female character as thinking:

"Ohmygod I'm being betrayed by my body, I'm getting wet against my will/when my ideas of my own sexuality say I shouldn't, am I a slut who wants to be dominated, who wants to obey this person growling manly instructions at me? I do! I am! I'm joyfully subservient and obedient!" etc...

I'd mention a particular story but in all honesty it feels like hundreds, and not in the BDSM section...

I know some women write broadly similar things, but I feel like the massive misinterpretation of the meaning of a vagina lubricating has to be a manifestation of something guys think or pretend to believe, surely?

I don't know, maybe it's a convenient short-hand in erotic writing, like implicitly pretending people don't have teeth whenever writing a blowjob scene.

But it feels closer to the ones that aren't just convenient for writing but convenient for fitting into particular... views.

Like some guy read that some women orgasm while being raped and ever since that's been a shorthand for whatever they wish - she loves being treated that way/discovers she's a sub, or proving a woman is a 'slut' (a creature more fictional than a futa) - and of course the orgasm forced upon a woman is always the most mind-blowing and sexuality-changing of her life. (Comparison with the actual experience of women who have had this happen would distinctly suggest otherwise but comparison would also be in bad taste. Like comparing superheroes getting powers from radiation to the actual experiences of people living around Hiroshima at the end of WW2...)

Anyway, like I say I didn't want to name a particular story for including that initial paragraph, but...am I the only one who is wrenched out of a story every time that paragraph appears?

I find it funny and true

 

[GoodnessO]

It may or may not be a sad comment on the times. I disagree because I don't think the collective social psych has changed much. What turns people on, today, in private, did so in ages past. And "rapey" romance novels are enormously popular among their mostly-women readers. If in Lit stories the victims keep finding themselves loving a good rape, put it down to the lack of ability and writing experience of the authors. I admit to liking a good rape scene. Problem is -- there are so very few "good" ones.

I didn't mean to imply there's any particular change in social norms regarding rape. Moreover, that would be an additional comment in line my thoughts.