Alittle gravity would be in order about now...

[weed]

There has been a lot of death and destruction as a result of this war and it is not over yet.

Certainly we can be thankful we didn't just go in and level the country in toto and casualties so far seem to be minimal on the American side but as the eargerness to fly a flag of liberty brings shudders to those who care how it looks and grimaces to those who know that guard should not let be down, that the next tasks upon the troops may be some of the hardest given their lack of training for it.

So before anyone's intestines revolt from an overdose of crow remember there is no black and white in this. And there is no victory in failing to avoid war.



I feel a vegan wave coming on...

 

[zipman]

There has been a lot of death and destruction as a result of this war and it is not over yet.

Certainly we can be thankful we didn't just go in and level the country in toto and casualties so far seem to be minimal on the American side but as the eargerness to fly a flag of liberty brings shudders to those who care how it looks and grimaces to those who know that guard should not let be down, that the next tasks upon the troops may be some of the hardest given their lack of training for it.

So before anyone's intestines revolt from an overdose of crow remember there is no black and white in this. And there is no victory in failing to avoid war.



I feel a vegan wave coming on...

But their is victory in having the conviction and fortitude to not allow politics to prevent you from doing something long overdue.

I am proud of the effort to minimize civilian deaths that coalition forces took in this war. I think it says a lot that we did things in a way that put our troops in greater danger than if we had been less concerned about civilians.

 

[weed]

Re: Re: Alittle gravity would be in order about now...

But their is victory in having the conviction and fortitude to not allow politics to prevent you from doing something long overdue.

I am proud of the effort to minimize civilian deaths that coalition forces took in this war. I think it says a lot that we did things in a way that put our troops in greater danger than if we had been less concerned about civilians.

Whether it was due or not is a whole other debate.

I have no qualms with the way the war was fought. A friend of mine once said there is no clean war. I suspect this is true but we could be fighting this much dirtier. As our troops turn into police I hope the military commanders can keep this instilled in them. There are a lot of liberated but desparate people over there to keep in order.

 

[RhumbRunner13]

There has been a lot of death and destruction as a result of this war and it is not over yet.

Certainly we can be thankful we didn't just go in and level the country in toto and casualties so far seem to be minimal on the American side but as the eargerness to fly a flag of liberty brings shudders to those who care how it looks and grimaces to those who know that guard should not let be down, that the next tasks upon the troops may be some of the hardest given their lack of training for it.

So before anyone's intestines revolt from an overdose of crow remember there is no black and white in this. And there is no victory in failing to avoid war.



I feel a vegan wave coming on...

Weed, I agree that there is much to give thanks for and many to mourn. That does not diminish the need for an understanding that sometimes there are those whom are so oppresed that the only solution is a violent one. Yes, sometimes we can make headway in a peaceful way. Gandi did, but Gandi dealt with a far more humane adversary than the average, everyday, oppressed Iraqi.

Here is a thread, posted by Chey, that might give you pause in your "blind" support of your antiwar stance.
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=161477

Please read it through, if you havn't already, and then convince me that waging war was not the moral high ground!

Rhumb

 

[weed]

I've read part of it but I'll come back to finish it.

I've also read stories about No. Koreans and people of Zimbabwe.

There are many oppressed. We can work with the rest of the world on these problems or we can continue with a search and destroy mentality. I am most certainly glad we seem to be good at it so far especially if it's the latter of the two choices.

Now I need to go be a night owl.

 

[RhumbRunner13]

I've read part of it but I'll come back to finish it.

I've also read stories about No. Koreans and people of Zimbabwe.

There are many oppressed. We can work with the rest of the world on these problems or we can continue with a search and destroy mentality. I am most certainly glad we seem to be good at it so far especially if it's the latter of the two choices.

Now I need to go be a night owl.

There is an old saw in Surgery Residency; See one, do one, teach one.

It is time for us to demand that, in a truely humane world, NONE of these despots would be allowed to exist for even one death. But, now it is the time of reckoning for those whom would not step up to do so. They must now follow, and thereby become leaders in their own right. I had these same feeling when the Berlin Wall fell...at last the world is coming to it's senses! Today Russia seems to be as obsteperous as ever...do we ever truely make any progress?

Don't do anything "slutty" tonight!unless you want to!

Rhumb

 

[weed]

I know that old saw well. It's for people who don't have time to do it right.

Do we really want to teach others that this is the way to get what one wants done? Remember, both sides of the coin are watching.

I got through much of Cheyenne's thread. I won't argue that the people of Iraq have been through terrible ordeals. I'm all for them being free to live their lives the way they want without tyranny.

If the war became inevitable I would have been acquiescent (though I don't think I can ever fully support death and destruction as a means to an end). But to me the inevitability would have come after the process at hand (the inspections) had played itself out. I saw know reason for immediate action but I did see legal, diplomatic, economic and moral reasons for waiting it out.

Since we're discussing moral.....wouldn't it have been better to win by making Saddam humble himself to us by way of threat than action?

The humanitarian issues are certainly the most important in my mind but it took Bush a while to get there trying fear tactics of terrorist threat and WMD saturation first. He used what he had to to keep support mustered up for this war.

 

[Cheyenne]

I'm sorry, every time I see this thread title I think of people floating away and needing a little gravity to get back to earth. I know, I can't help it.

 

[ksmybuttons]

By PETER ZUCKERMAN, Associated Press Writer


On the day Baghdad fell, South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu called the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq immoral and unnecessary.

Tutu questioned if the United States had done all it could to neutralize Saddam Hussein before starting the war. The 1984 Nobel Prize winner also said Operation Iraqi Freedom would neither free Iraqis nor protect the world from terrorists.

"You can bet your bottom dollar there won't be peace," he told 3,000 people Wednesday night. "You will never get true security from the barrel of a gun."

"Anything war can do, peace can do better. God is weeping because it could be so different."

Tutu, 71, led a forceful and nonviolent campaign to end apartheid in South Africa during the 1980s and 90s. He became the first black Anglican bishop of Johannesburg in 1983 and later the first black archbishop of Cape Town.

"We had a change of regime without fighting," Tutu said at a press conference before his speech. "That is the legacy your country should follow."

He added that violence does not bode well for international stability and said the United States was hypocritical to break international law.

"It is precisely because we want to encourage a law abiding regime that we need to demonstrate that we ourselves are law abiding," he said. "We have these laws to protect the weak from the strong."

Young people and students are a driving force behind bringing peace to the world, Tutu said. He encouraged them to continue protesting the war because protesters are "telling people that they care."

"I was extraordinarily exhilarated by people who came out and continued on for peace," he said, his arms wide open.

If activists meet people who disagree with them, they should "let them know they're on the wrong side. You ought to be asking (them) to join you."

Now, this being said, the politicos can sit in their towers and talk of sanctions and send out edicts. The troops that needed to be sent in needed to be sent during Bush I control in 1991. At that time the troops would have been peace activists on a large scale that would help the people find a way to stand up for their rights. An oppressed people, so very fearful, cannot stand up alone. They need great leaders, they need a Desmond Tutu.

Where are the Iraqi's great peace leaders now?

I haven't seen any step up to the plate to take care of their people. Why isn't the USA looking for them and why are they not in the forefront? The coalition needs them now. The Iraqi people need them now.

 

[weed]

I'm sorry, every time I see this thread title I think of people floating away and needing a little gravity to get back to earth. I know, I can't help it.

lol...works for me

 

[LadyG]

By PETER ZUCKERMAN, Associated Press Writer


On the day Baghdad fell, South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu called the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq immoral and unnecessary.

Tutu questioned if the United States had done all it could to neutralize Saddam Hussein before starting the war. The 1984 Nobel Prize winner also said Operation Iraqi Freedom would neither free Iraqis nor protect the world from terrorists.

"You can bet your bottom dollar there won't be peace," he told 3,000 people Wednesday night. "You will never get true security from the barrel of a gun."

"Anything war can do, peace can do better. God is weeping because it could be so different."

Tutu, 71, led a forceful and nonviolent campaign to end apartheid in South Africa during the 1980s and 90s. He became the first black Anglican bishop of Johannesburg in 1983 and later the first black archbishop of Cape Town.

"We had a change of regime without fighting," Tutu said at a press conference before his speech. "That is the legacy your country should follow."

He added that violence does not bode well for international stability and said the United States was hypocritical to break international law.

"It is precisely because we want to encourage a law abiding regime that we need to demonstrate that we ourselves are law abiding," he said. "We have these laws to protect the weak from the strong."

Young people and students are a driving force behind bringing peace to the world, Tutu said. He encouraged them to continue protesting the war because protesters are "telling people that they care."

"I was extraordinarily exhilarated by people who came out and continued on for peace," he said, his arms wide open.

If activists meet people who disagree with them, they should "let them know they're on the wrong side. You ought to be asking (them) to join you."

Now, this being said, the politicos can sit in their towers and talk of sanctions and send out edicts. The troops that needed to be sent in needed to be sent during Bush I control in 1991. At that time the troops would have been peace activists on a large scale that would help the people find a way to stand up for their rights. An oppressed people, so very fearful, cannot stand up alone. They need great leaders, they need a Desmond Tutu.

Where are the Iraqi's great peace leaders now?

I haven't seen any step up to the plate to take care of their people. Why isn't the USA looking for them and why are they not in the forefront? The coalition needs them now. The Iraqi people need them now.

I think the U.S effectively shut them out when they proceeded without the U.N. backing.

They're probably waiting to be approached now.

Right or wrong.

 

[SleepingWarrior]

Where are the Iraqi's great peace leaders now?

Not to inflame or pick a fight (I basically agree that people's stances on this war shouldn't be used to make them eat crow, admit they are wrong, etc.. ) but alot of the Iraqis who could have picked up the torch for peace were silenced in some way... Not just by death but by fear and by being forced to leave Iraq. Maybe when this is over the ones who remained silent under Saddam will encourage the Iraqi people to be peaceful in all aspects of their lives and hopefully the Iraqi people ( And yes, even all people) will one day be residents in a world of peace.

 

[weed]

I think the U.S effectively shut them out when they proceeded without the U.N. backing.

They're probably waiting to be approached now.

Right or wrong.

Thanks for the article.

I think I heard some of the exiled nationals are being rounded up. Hopefully other Iraqis from the various factions will be included and they will achieve some mutual ground for re-establishing their country.

 

[weed]

Not to inflame or pick a fight (I basically agree that people's stances on this war shouldn't be used to make them eat crow, admit they are wrong, etc.. ) but alot of the Iraqis who could have picked up the torch for peace were silenced in some way... Not just by death but by fear and by being forced to leave Iraq. Maybe when this is over the ones who remained silent under Saddam will encourage the Iraqi people to be peaceful in all aspects of their lives and hopefully the Iraqi people ( And yes, even all people) will one day be residents in a world of peace.

True. Hard to stand up when there's a gun at your daughter's head.

They have a lot of healing ahead. Hopefully they have not had too much hatred instilled in them from their culture and experiences that they can not rise to the occasion.

 

[eagleyez]

There has been a lot of death and destruction as a result of this war and it is not over yet.

Certainly we can be thankful we didn't just go in and level the country in toto and casualties so far seem to be minimal on the American side but as the eargerness to fly a flag of liberty brings shudders to those who care how it looks and grimaces to those who know that guard should not let be down, that the next tasks upon the troops may be some of the hardest given their lack of training for it.

So before anyone's intestines revolt from an overdose of crow remember there is no black and white in this. And there is no victory in failing to avoid war.



I feel a vegan wave coming on...

soy milk and prayers going out

you are so right

this shit is just beginning...

evidence the bluster coming from Rumsfeld, Cheney, Shrub, and now even Powell, who I used to like

we reap what we sow


fools...

 

[LadyG]

It's so easy to say the people should have overthrown him, but as you said, when they are holding guns to your child/families head, or taking them away and torturing them..it's a whole different ball game.

So many Iraqi's in Gov't positions fled the country 30 years ago, maybe just maybe, they should be consulted and brought back in?

It's a hard call.

But the bottom line is ...They have to be the one's deciding how they want their country run, after all, it is their country.

Just wish they would get the water and electricity up and running before disease starts running rampant, claiming even more lives.

 

[SleepingWarrior]

One of the prominent former Iraqi citizens that are being considered to help Iraq teaches at the Univerisity right here in my town. I've had the oppurtunity to listen to him talk on the subject of helping the Iraqi people transition to a democratic government and it helped me harden and soften my stance on this war. While it is harder for me to justify the deaths of innocents than I show on the board, I really believe that this war can work for the best and it was needed for various reasons. With hope and oppurtunity anything can happen.

 

[weed]

They are overwhelmed with the casualties they have now.

And this with us being careful.

I have heard inferences to the war being easy on the numbers of Iraqi civilians but I haven't heard any numbers. Would be interested if anybody has seen anything about the casualty estimates thus far.

Though I suppose we won't really know until all is said and done. If it ever is. And if people ever agree on the numbers.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

I, for one, opposed this war vehemently. Not because I thought Saddam was a wonderful guy who should be kept in power, not because I wanted him to use weapons upon his people, not because I wanted him to send terrorists to our country. I believe as Tutu believes - war does not solve any problems. Iraq's problems are still there. We've stuck our toe in a hornets nest that we WILL regret involving ourselves in. Killing people to teach them not to kill people doesn't work. I AM glad that it was over quickly with only thousands of people killed rather than hundreds of thousands. And I hope that somehow the upcoming bloodshed can be kept to a minimum. There's still an awful lot of work to be done.

 

[weed]

I, for one, opposed this war vehemently. Not because I thought Saddam was a wonderful guy who should be kept in power, not because I wanted him to use weapons upon his people, not because I wanted him to send terrorists to our country. I believe as Tutu believes - war does not solve any problems. Iraq's problems are still there. We've stuck our toe in a hornets nest that we WILL regret involving ourselves in. Killing people to teach them not to kill people doesn't work. I AM glad that it was over quickly with only thousands of people killed rather than hundreds of thousands. And I hope that somehow the upcoming bloodshed can be kept to a minimum. There's still an awful lot of work to be done.

Reminds me of "Do as I say not as I do."

If it doesn't work for kids how's it supposed to work anywhere else?

 

[weed]

Sounds like it will be awhile before we really know....

Hussein's regime falls in Baghdad
Iraq fighters disappear as troops roll in
Washington Post
Last Updated: April 10, 2003

Baghdad, Iraq - Swept aside by U.S. troops who drove through the streets of Baghdad, President Saddam Hussein's government collapsed Wednesday, ending three decades of ruthless Baath Party rule that sought to make Iraq the champion of a modern Arab world but left behind a legacy of poverty, bitterness and tyranny.

As U.S. Army troops occupied the western bank of the Tigris River and U.S. Marines rolled into the eastern part of the city, facing only scattered resistance, thousands of Baghdad residents poured into the streets to celebrate the government's defeat and welcome the U.S. forces with scenes of thanks and jubilation.

With pent-up fury, the crowds also rampaged through government offices and state-owned companies, lugging away everything from plastic chairs to Toyota pickups once doled out as patronage. In festive moments, others tested their new-found freedoms, engaging in noisy debates in the street and denouncing Hussein in words that would have brought a death sentence only days ago.

The feared Baath Party apparatus disappeared from the streets. Its junior officials and militia fighters, once posted at every street corner and intersection, were nowhere to be seen. Many were said to have changed into civilian clothes to escape detection. Party uniforms and weapons were scattered at sandbagged positions that only days ago had been vaunted as the heart of a bloody last stand. Along some streets, military vehicles stood bleak and deserted, testimony that a once-efficient administration had come to a halt.

The fall of Baghdad - and its celebration by thousands of Iraqis eager to heap scorn on their leader - marked a climactic moment and a clear turning point in the war launched by the Bush administration three weeks ago to take down Hussein's government and rid Iraq of what U.S. officials said was a store of weapons of mass destruction.

Since launching the invasion from Kuwait on March 20, U.S. and British forces have seized control of all the country's important centers south of Baghdad and at least two-thirds of its territory. The Euphrates River city of Hilla came under U.S. Army control Wednesday, completing occupation of the Euphrates Valley. The seizure of Baghdad added to the list the seat of Hussein's government and the heart of Iraq's old and storied civilization.

"We are not seeing any organized resistance," said Navy Capt. Frank Thorp at the U.S. Central Command. "The Iraqi military is unable to fight as an organized fighting force." And Maj. Gen. Buford C. Blount III, commander of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division, told reporters that "the end of the combat phase is days away."

But Hussein, 65, his family, his ministers and members of the ruling Revolutionary Command Council remained unaccounted for, having vanished from public view over the last several days as U.S. forces closed in. U.S. officials cited radio traffic from the remote town of Qaim, in the far west near the Syrian border, as an indication some Hussein followers might be hiding there. In addition, several major Iraqi cities have not yet been occupied by U.S. forces, including Tikrit, Hussein's hometown, and Kirkuk and Mosul in the northern oil fields.

'This is not over'
"There's a lot more fighting that's going to be done," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned in Washington. "There are more people (who) are going to be killed; let there be no doubt. This is not over, despite all the celebrations on the street."

Even in Baghdad, fighting had not subsided entirely. An armored column of the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division clashed Wednesday evening with at least two squads of Iraqi fighters in western Baghdad after encountering land mines strewn across a highway cleared of Iraqi mines just hours earlier. That indicated a remnant of command control, an American officer said.

Hours later north of Baghdad, U.S. Marines took control of a palace early today after a fierce, three-hour firefight in which they used heavy machine guns. An undetermined Iraqi force used rocket-propelled grenades, hitting some American vehicles. There were no serious injuries among Americans.

Ten or more Iraqi regular army divisions were still deployed in the field, military officials said, and though many others have collapsed without a fight, an enormous arsenal of conventional weapons was still salted around the country where tens of thousands of Hussein loyalists, Baath Party officials and Iraqi soldiers have apparently gone home or underground.

Rumsfeld said the allies also need to account for, capture or otherwise deal with Hussein, his sons and other senior Iraqi leaders; capture Mosul and Kirkuk in the north to secure surrounding oil fields; and capture or kill Iraqi fighters scattered throughout the country.

The scenes of liberation in Baghdad and celebrations in scattered other cities unfolded as the Pentagon announced that 101 American troops had died in the first three weeks of the war. Eleven others are missing and seven listed as captured. The British said 30 of their troops were dead. There are no reliable estimates for Iraqi casualties, but U.S. officials have estimated them in the thousands.

While Hussein and his sons were targeted in an airstrike Monday night on the strength of intelligence that they were gathered in a meeting and vulnerable to attack, Rumsfeld said he does not know whether they are still alive.

"It is hard to find a single person," Rumsfeld said. "It is hard to find them when they're alive and mobile, it's hard to find them when they're not well, and it's hard to find them if they're buried under rubble. We don't know. And he's not been around. He's not active. Therefore, he's either dead or he's incapacitated, or he's healthy and cowering in some tunnel someplace, trying to avoid being caught. What else can one say?"

But in Baghdad, Wednesday was for merrymaking as, in quick succession, U.S. forces took control of the streets and the symbols of Hussein's rule fell. In al-Firdos Square, dancing crowds aided by U.S. Marines toppled a 20-foot statue of the longtime leader, his arm raised in Stalinist fashion. They dragged its severed head by a rope through the streets, cheering along the way. His ubiquitous portraits, as early as Wednesday morning still gracing newspapers, were smashed. On one defaced picture, a devil's horns were scribbled in black.

"I can tell you the fear has lifted from people's hearts," said Faleh Hassan, sitting at Abu Ahmed restaurant in central Baghdad.

It was a startling collapse for a government that, only three weeks ago, had predicted Baghdad would become a quagmire for invading forces and declared, with bluster and bravado, that it was debating whether to bury U.S. and British troops in mass pits or individual graves. It followed one of the quietest nights of the war in Baghdad, with only sporadic shelling and the crackle of gunfire.

No officials around
The fate of Hussein and his government was a mystery that intrigued Baghdadis as well as officials in Washington. But there was no one to ask about it. For the first time since the war began, Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf failed to arrive at the Palestine Hotel to deliver his daily briefing.

Other Iraqi officials, who appeared less and less in public as the war progressed, were also nowhere to be seen, including Hussein's two sons, Odai and Qusai. Despite the bombing of a compound in the well-to-do Mansour neighborhood where Hussein was believed hiding Monday night, many residents of Baghdad expressed belief he survived and possibly went to Tikrit, the home base of his clan and many of his closest lieutenants.

Many spoke of vengeance in settling scores with those officials. "If I see my enemy before my eyes, I will kill him," said Hassan, the restaurant owner. "To be honest, that goes for all Tikritis."

But scenes of celebration were more common. Hundreds of Iraqis poured into al-Firdos Square, in images broadcast around the world. Passing columns whose cupolas bore the initials "S.H.", they headed for a statue perched above a 20-foot pedestal of purple granite. First came a sledgehammer. Men took turns knocking chunks off the base, to the wild applause of the crowd. Then a rope tied like a noose went over its head. Finally, Marines brought an M-88 tank recovery vehicle. They tethered one leg, then two, before finally settling on a thick chain that went around the statue's neck. It fell half-way, then crashed to the ground.

All that was left was the twisted metal of his feet, two rusted pipes jutting out.

With the rage of grievances accumulated over a lifetime, they beat the fallen statue with sledgehammers, rocks, chains and their feet. In a traditional Arab insult, some slapped their shoes on it. Others made off with its head.

Down the street, crowds greeted U.S. troops with flowers, candy and kisses.

"We love you," some shouted. Others, with more anger, cried out, "No more Saddam Hussein."

The New York Times, Los Angeles Times and Associated Press contributed to this report.