Ain't No Time for Hate

[Netzach]

Liberal elites who do NRA are something all right!

I know, I know, you love 'em. Some of my best friends are hunters, actually. I tell them all the time, I don't get what you are talking about. I don't understand your lifestyle. But I admit your bacon is quite tasty. (Sorry, JM, , they were raised somewhat humanely if that helps).


Back to the OP.

After seeing so many clips from the McCain-Palin rallies on the news, there is no way in hell I will say that there is just as much hate on the left. Hey, I'm probably the hateful, intolerant left and the worst I've said about McCain is to repeat the Gawker nickname, Walnuts. What concerns me is what will happen if Obama wins? How is that intense hatred going to dissipate?

I think it's a region thing. Moving changed my mind. It's also a class thang - if you live somewhere the cops don't like to go, why should only the people killing you have weapons?

Anyhoo -

Yeah, they have no idea how they're going to cool the fires at all. McCain took a merely dislikeable proposition of him winning and has made it downright terrifying to anyone who doesn't LOOK like the people at a Palin rally. Nice.

 

[Netzach]

No hard feelings.



What do they hunt for bacon? Wild boar?

I've never had boar bacon, though I've heard that nothing beats acorn-rooting javelina for flavor. The best thing I think I've ever had was some elk carpaccio, (left wing gun toters know how to eat)

And just the other day I asked T what exactly field dressing a moose entails.

(ok, our post fucking talks are weird)

A moose, remember, weighs about 1500 pounds. It takes 4 strong men to lug elk quarters back to the vehicle, remember. Elk isn't as big. It sounds like ugly, smelly, thankless, repulsive work. One hopes to shoot a Bull moose because his rack will keep him steady while you do the job, and you begin by excising his bullness and going from the perineum forward. Being extra careful not to perf his moose entrails and ruin about 100 pounds of meat.

I asked, why? Why would you shoot these giant inconveniently huge gentle water plant munchers you have to BOAT onto land half the time and spend 4-6 hours gutting the bastards starting at 8 in the cold?

You're set with meat and they're really really REALLY tasty, apparently.

There's nothing lazy about the people who go out and shoot God's creatures with giant guns if they go on to dress and eat them.

Hunting is fun till after you kill whatever it is.

I'm considering duck/pheasant hunting. I feel like, as a lifelong omnivore, I should have that relationship to my food at least once in my life.

Especially if I am going to have to wind up getting a dog, a whole bunch of guns and moving to a shack and voting third party. I can't grow plants for shit.

Shit, I think the ONLY respect I have for SP lies in her ability to shoot giant beasts and stick around for the disgusting part.

 

[JMohegan]

I've never had boar bacon, though I've heard that nothing beats acorn-rooting javelina for flavor. The best thing I think I've ever had was some elk carpaccio, (left wing gun toters know how to eat)

And just the other day I asked T what exactly field dressing a moose entails.

(ok, our post fucking talks are weird)

A moose, remember, weighs about 1500 pounds. It takes 4 strong men to lug elk quarters back to the vehicle, remember. Elk isn't as big. It sounds like ugly, smelly, thankless, repulsive work. One hopes to shoot a Bull moose because his rack will keep him steady while you do the job, and you begin by excising his bullness and going from the perineum forward. Being extra careful not to perf his moose entrails and ruin about 100 pounds of meat.

There's nothing lazy about the people who go out and shoot God's creatures with giant guns if they go on to dress and eat them.

Hunting is fun till after you kill whatever it is.

I'm considering duck/pheasant hunting. I feel like, as a lifelong omnivore, I should have that relationship to my food at least once in my life.

Especially if I am going to have to wind up getting a dog, a whole bunch of guns and moving to a shack and voting third party. I can't grow plants for shit.

Shit, I think the ONLY respect I have for SP lies in her ability to shoot giant beasts and stick around for the disgusting part.

Her childhood is fascinating.

"The Heaths lived in a small cabin heated by a wood-burning stove, all four children crowded in an attic bedroom, where they huddled under quilts and watched their own breath. Since store-bought food was hard to come by, area families relied on wild game as their main form of sustenance. The Heaths and the Carters hunted together, and "one moose would feed both families for a winter," Smith says.

Palin stacked firewood endlessly and worked in a large communal garden where winter vegetables were grown. Anyone who dined at the Heath home remembers large stews of whatever the family had shot. "Bear, moose, sheep," recalls Kim Ketchum, one of Palin's childhood friends.

By age 10, Palin was picking off rabbits out the back door and sniping at ptarmigan, an Alaskan game bird, on cross-country skis. Her father would rouse her at 4 a.m. to hunt duck before school. On hunts, she learned how to field-dress a moose, a fancy term for butchering it."


I have zero ethical qualms about this, and like you - a lot of respect.

At the same time, I can't ignore the voice in my head saying HOLY FUCK. It's like this woman grew up on a combination Daniel Boone/Little House on the Prairie set. If you think about it, this explains a hell of a lot.

 

[midwestyankee]

Her childhood is fascinating.

<snip>

At the same time, I can't ignore the voice in my head saying HOLY FUCK. It's like this woman grew up on a combination Daniel Boone/Little House on the Prairie set. If you think about it, this explains a hell of a lot.

What this kind of upbringing usually generates is a person with an independent mind and a firm sense of self. What happened to Ms. Palin's independence? She sold it to Bill Kristol and Rush Limbaugh for a few weeks on the national stage. She got fucked and they didn't even get off. Such a deal.

 

[midwestyankee]

Waterboard him?

Anyone who tries to claim that the far right hasn't stepped way over the boundary of decency in this election will have to explain to me how this is civil politics.

The Sacramento County Republican Party in California recently was forced to rework its website after people found mock political signs on the site that read, "Waterboard Obama" and "The only difference between Osama and Obama is bs."

Craig MacGlashan, county party chairman, "defended his Web site. "I'm aware of the content," he said. "Some people find it offensive, others do not. I cannot comment on how people interpret things."

I'm ashamed to know that these people are citizens of my country.

 

[JMohegan]

What this kind of upbringing usually generates is a person with an independent mind and a firm sense of self. What happened to Ms. Palin's independence? She sold it to Bill Kristol and Rush Limbaugh for a few weeks on the national stage. She got fucked and they didn't even get off. Such a deal.

No way of knowing, of course, but it seems possible to me that she does have an independent mind and firm sense of self. She could also be quite intelligent.

What she lacks is a fundamental understanding of modern, cosmopolitan society, as well as even the most basic curiosity about the same. She was repeatedly (and rightly) criticized for lack of interest in, and exploration of, foreign countries. I would add the urban, suburban, and exurban communities in which most Americans live to the list of places about which her knowledge and experience are clearly lacking.

When she talks about white, rural, small town America as being the "real" America, I think she's giving a forthright summary of this country *as she sees it*. This is actually scarier to me than someone who adopts a personal narrative for political gain. I suspect that she just doesn't get it. Not because she's stupid, but because she has never been exposed to the America in which the rest of us live.

All this campaigning won't help, either. She's being sent to deep red counties, in which she is surrounded by cheering, adoring supporters who see her as the personification of the America about which they fantasize. Any "education" about non-small-town elements of the Lower 48 took place when she was cramming for debate, i.e., memorizing Republican talking points.

Kathleen Parker wrote that Palin "doesn't know what she doesn't know." I think that sums it up very well.

 

[Etoile]

I do want to say that this thread was never intended to be about politics, about Obama vs. McCain. Someone said "at the rallies I see just as much hate on the left as on the right" but let's remember that the subject of the thread is average citizens hating other average citizens. I'm not saying the thread can't go on to other topics, only that I prefer to clarify that this thread was not started about those topics.

 

[intothewoods]

No hard feelings.



What do they hunt for bacon? Wild boar?

Not cool, not cool! I did not click!

If it wasn't clear, btw, I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I was making fun of myself because as much as I say, ew, please stop describing your weird romanting hunting trip weekends to them (in jest, we're friends), I have to admit I have enjoyed the fruits of their, uh, gun-toting.

This particular couple - the wife probably did hunt wild boar. The husband has some sort of country house I believe -- ok, I have to interrupt myself because this relates to Netzach's post.

I think it's a region thing. Moving changed my mind.

Yeah, so, these people are suburbanites (well, he is) but his family lives in the country. It's a whole other world to me. One in which a snake in the shed is a good thing because it will take care of the mice. Rigghhhht.

Anyway, they don't hunt wild boar. They do raise and slaughter a few pigs and other animals on his family farm. And they hunt other stuff - deer, maybe? The one that stuck out in my mind was squirrel. And they do eat it. It apparently tastes just like chicken. To their credit, they eat it all. Save it, freeze it. They have a vegetable garden too at their place. Anyway, they aren't like Dick Cheney or anything. Oh, they also go on fishing trips. They're quite sweet.

 

[intothewoods]

I encourage everyone to watch this segment of Bill Moyer's Journal: Rage on the Radio. (Yes, I made the ******* myself.) A complete transcript is available.

I don't understand why right-wing people are so full of hate. Liberals tend not to be hateful. There are exceptions to the rule, of course, but generally liberals don't condemn people the way conservatives do. The vitriol spewed by right-wing radio hosts is just appalling. Liberals just don't hate the way conservatives do. Why are they like this? Jesus certainly didn't tell them to propose violence against their fellow human beings. Where is this hate from? Why do they hate so much?

I had to go look up the OP, Etoile, because I had thought this was about politics! I'm not trying to be snarky. I just wanted to understand what you mean. Are you saying it's not about this particular election cycle but a more deeply entrenched red state/blue state divide?

 

[intothewoods]

No way of knowing, of course, but it seems possible to me that she does have an independent mind and firm sense of self. She could also be quite intelligent.

What she lacks is a fundamental understanding of modern, cosmopolitan society, as well as even the most basic curiosity about the same. She was repeatedly (and rightly) criticized for lack of interest in, and exploration of, foreign countries. I would add the urban, suburban, and exurban communities in which most Americans live to the list of places about which her knowledge and experience are clearly lacking.

When she talks about white, rural, small town America as being the "real" America, I think she's giving a forthright summary of this country *as she sees it*. This is actually scarier to me than someone who adopts a personal narrative for political gain. I suspect that she just doesn't get it. Not because she's stupid, but because she has never been exposed to the America in which the rest of us live.

All this campaigning won't help, either. She's being sent to deep red counties, in which she is surrounded by cheering, adoring supporters who see her as the personification of the America about which they fantasize. Any "education" about non-small-town elements of the Lower 48 took place when she was cramming for debate, i.e., memorizing Republican talking points.

Kathleen Parker wrote that Palin "doesn't know what she doesn't know." I think that sums it up very well.

I grew up with a lot of people who were quite happy to lead lives that were limited to our town. And I know a lot of content suburbanites (who live in a major metropolitan area) who do not want to have anything to do with the people living outside of their little zone, whether it be the urban poor or the really wealthy old money people on the other side of town. And am I really that different? Not really.

It's funny, an ex-boyfriend of mine used to joke that San Francisco was made up of a whole bunch of different tribes, each tribe member wearing a uniform. He was basically making fun of SF-ers who consider themselves unqiue individuals. If you lived in the Haight, you wear vintage clothing and are a rich ex-hippie. If you lived in the Marina, you wear Gap khakis. If you live in the Mission, you wear all black. Etc, etc. There is a whole lotta truth there.

I just wonder, is there some American quality (or is it a human quality?) which encourages us to isolate ourselves and have no interest in anyone somewhat different?

 

[Etoile]

I had to go look up the OP, Etoile, because I had thought this was about politics! I'm not trying to be snarky. I just wanted to understand what you mean. Are you saying it's not about this particular election cycle but a more deeply entrenched red state/blue state divide?

It's not about politics at all...it's about people. If you read through the first few pages of the thread, you'll see what I mean. It has nothing to do with Democrats vs. Republicans or anything like that.

It's obvious that the thread has taken a political turn, but I want people to realize that I didn't intend for the thread to be about politics. Someone compared my original post to the yelling being done at rallies, and that's not what I was talking about at all.

 

[Netzach]

Her childhood is fascinating.

"The Heaths lived in a small cabin heated by a wood-burning stove, all four children crowded in an attic bedroom, where they huddled under quilts and watched their own breath. Since store-bought food was hard to come by, area families relied on wild game as their main form of sustenance. The Heaths and the Carters hunted together, and "one moose would feed both families for a winter," Smith says.

Palin stacked firewood endlessly and worked in a large communal garden where winter vegetables were grown. Anyone who dined at the Heath home remembers large stews of whatever the family had shot. "Bear, moose, sheep," recalls Kim Ketchum, one of Palin's childhood friends.

By age 10, Palin was picking off rabbits out the back door and sniping at ptarmigan, an Alaskan game bird, on cross-country skis. Her father would rouse her at 4 a.m. to hunt duck before school. On hunts, she learned how to field-dress a moose, a fancy term for butchering it."


I have zero ethical qualms about this, and like you - a lot of respect.

At the same time, I can't ignore the voice in my head saying HOLY FUCK. It's like this woman grew up on a combination Daniel Boone/Little House on the Prairie set. If you think about it, this explains a hell of a lot.

No. No it does not.

I agree with, know, love and respect people with equally as weird childhoods. Whose college was partially paid for by leg trapping fur. Who decided that running fox down with snowmobiles was too karmically shitty even for a trappers' kid. People whose thanksgiving turkey was usually a squirrel.

These same people work with among and for the maligned ACORN demographics - poor, urban, people of color, immigrants.

The difference is genuinely liking humans whatever the color and an ability to embrace the new, the different, the underdog.

There are progressives, novophiles and humanists anywhere you go. There are closedminded and scared reactionaries anywhere you go.

 

[JMohegan]

Not cool, not cool! I did not click!

If it wasn't clear, btw, I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I was making fun of myself because as much as I say, ew, please stop describing your weird romanting hunting trip weekends to them (in jest, we're friends), I have to admit I have enjoyed the fruits of their, uh, gun-toting.

I knew you were just goofin' around. I was too!

 

[JMohegan]

I grew up with a lot of people who were quite happy to lead lives that were limited to our town. And I know a lot of content suburbanites (who live in a major metropolitan area) who do not want to have anything to do with the people living outside of their little zone, whether it be the urban poor or the really wealthy old money people on the other side of town. And am I really that different? Not really.

It's funny, an ex-boyfriend of mine used to joke that San Francisco was made up of a whole bunch of different tribes, each tribe member wearing a uniform. He was basically making fun of SF-ers who consider themselves unqiue individuals. If you lived in the Haight, you wear vintage clothing and are a rich ex-hippie. If you lived in the Marina, you wear Gap khakis. If you live in the Mission, you wear all black. Etc, etc. There is a whole lotta truth there.

I just wonder, is there some American quality (or is it a human quality?) which encourages us to isolate ourselves and have no interest in anyone somewhat different?

I read somewhere recently that red states are becoming redder and blue states bluer, as people gravitate toward those who share their world view.

But within each type of community, some people are curious about the broader world and some people just aren't. Curiosity leads to exploration in the forms of education, reading, travel, Internet discourse with people from differing demographics, and so on.

You don't seem all that provincial to me, but regardless - that's beside the point because you're not running for president. I'd say that demonstrable curiosity about, and knowledge of, myriad elements of the broader country (and world at large) are critical for that job.

 

[JMohegan]

No. No it does not.

I agree with, know, love and respect people with equally as weird childhoods. Whose college was partially paid for by leg trapping fur. Who decided that running fox down with snowmobiles was too karmically shitty even for a trappers' kid. People whose thanksgiving turkey was usually a squirrel.

These same people work with among and for the maligned ACORN demographics - poor, urban, people of color, immigrants.

The difference is genuinely liking humans whatever the color and an ability to embrace the new, the different, the underdog.

There are progressives, novophiles and humanists anywhere you go. There are closedminded and scared reactionaries anywhere you go.

Her childhood explains a lot (to me) because it confirms both her personal narrative and the fact that this is a world she's never left, while at the same time highlighting the enormous cultural divide between that world and most other Americans'.

Your friends possess the personality and character traits necessary to explore and embrace the broader world, but it seems clear to me that Palin does not. This distinction is what I find most alarming about her as a VPOTUS candidate.


Compare Palin to Bill Clinton. Here was a kid from Hope, Arkansas. Went to Georgetown on scholarship and got a B.S. in Foreign Service. Spent time in England (at Oxford), New England (Yale Law) and then back to his home state. True, when he ran for POTUS his only experience was that of governor of a small state. But everything that had happened up to that point had confirmed a level of knowledge and world view that was far from provincial.

I don't mean to imply that Ivies are the only way to broaden one's perspective. Far from it! But there's gotta be something. Some evidence of a thirst for knowledge about the world outside your own backyard.

 

[jockdom]

I've tried wild boar sausage and very nice it was too.

 

[intothewoods]

I've tried wild boar sausage and very nice it was too.

LOL.

I read somewhere recently that red states are becoming redder and blue states bluer, as people gravitate toward those who share their world view.

But within each type of community, some people are curious about the broader world and some people just aren't. Curiosity leads to exploration in the forms of education, reading, travel, Internet discourse with people from differing demographics, and so on.

You don't seem all that provincial to me, but regardless - that's beside the point because you're not running for president. I'd say that demonstrable curiosity about, and knowledge of, myriad elements of the broader country (and world at large) are critical for that job.

I'm not running for president, but I am voting for president. It's not just the candidates. It's the voters. It troubles me that there are so many Americans who don't have that curiousity, and even dislike, hate, isolate themselves from, refuse to learn about people who look and sound different. Watching them, watching a woman say, I don't trust him because I think he's an Arab, it breaks my heart as an American. It really does.

When W beat Kerry, I was devastated. Issues aside, it also felt like an attack on intellectualism. My reaction personally was screw you, red states, or something like that. But this is different. Because just like the Muslim rumor (I guess that's the same rumor, but Arab is not the same as Muslim, apparently to the surprise of some Americans), it's not just that it's a lie, it's also that there are Americans who decide they do not trust someone based solely on their ethnicity or their religion. It's disgusting. It's so demoralizing to me as an American.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm not running for president, but I am voting for president. It's not just the candidates. It's the voters. It troubles me that there are so many Americans who don't have that curiousity, and even dislike, hate, isolate themselves from, refuse to learn about people who look and sound different.

That's a really good point, and you're right - a huge part of the problem.