Ain't No Time for Hate

[00Syd]

Reading this thread I can't help but feel that people are lumping homophobia, racism, antisemitism, sexism in with "right wing beliefs." Yes, there are plenty of homophobic, racist, antisemitic, and sexist right wingers, but they are not intrinsically linked.

It does seem like that sort of intolerance does fit together more often with right wingers than they do with left wingers, however. At least, they are often much more vocal about it.

 

[00Syd]

We as human beings should be really fucking alarmed when we hear people being referred to as "vermin." Any and all of us.

When we hear people being referred to as vermin yes we should be afraid, but more importantly, we should be terrified when other people listen and nod their head in agreement.

 

[Netzach]

Reading this thread I can't help but feel that people are lumping homophobia, racism, antisemitism, sexism in with "right wing beliefs." Yes, there are plenty of homophobic, racist, antisemitic, and sexist right wingers, but they are not intrinsically linked.

It does seem like that sort of intolerance does fit together more often with right wingers than they do with left wingers, however. At least, they are often much more vocal about it.

This is true. One of my favorite political buttons is an independently made button and T with the iconic Che image with "Che killed people you trendy douchebag" under it.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I've not read any of this thread, past the opening post, so if my opinion has already been stated, sorry.

This forum has become very polarized. There's a real "them against us" attitude here that has made it unpleasant for me to visit. I've never based my friendships with anyone on how that person votes or whether or not they agree with my opinions on choice or how much weight is too much. I've always found it healthy and mind expanding to have friends who have different views on some things than my own. But I have discovered that if I have views that are unpopular with the right crowd, my friends are limited.

It's ironic considering that this "community" boasts a tolerance for everyone kind of attitude.

Personally, for me, this has become so political (and I don't just mean in the literal sense) and so polarized that it's no longer a fun place.

And you know, I don't need the "then don't come here" advice. I've pretty much taken it already. This is the first day in about 6 that I've come here. And it looks no different than it did then.

 

[caela]

Are people seriously equating the level of maliciousness expressed on a routine basis by the left and the right? Seriously? Straight up?

Yes people are equating it...or at least I am. Etoile specifically said she was asking about normal, everyday people not extremists so that is who I have been talking about. I won't argue that the right-wing extremists are more vocal than those on the left, people like Savage and all the crazy assed preachers you hear about prove that they are...but it's been established that those are the extremes not the norms of everyday life for most people.

Perhaps "hate" is the wrong word for what I experience and "intolerance" would serve better. Hate after all is truly more on the extreme end of the emotional spectrum. Whichever word you choose however, my experience of it is pretty much the same on both sides of the political divide when you're talking about Joe Blow on the street.

Unpleasant, not civil, not especially constructive, but honestly not going to ruin more than your afternoon. If your ideas can't stand up to challenge, if you can't manage to shrug off someone saying you're stupid, that's not a crime in the making. Plenty of people have acted like I have to be a moron because of my political beliefs or simply the presence of my vagina in the office. That alone is not "hate." It blows, it's dumb. If I get fired or passed over for promotion it's pretty illegal, but proving that is next to impossible. Seems like you still have your job in spite of Dr. Asshole's disagreements, yes?

I have no problem with my ideas being challenged or people disagreeing with me and I can shrug off being called stupid but I would argue that simply determining someone is stupid because of their political beliefs (or religious beliefs or their sex etc.) is hateful. It may not be violent but it doesn't change the undercurrent of intolerance and hatred that feed it. No one deserves to be treated as less than human for any reason.

And you're right I do still have my job despite disagreeing with this doctor because he's not my employer, the hospital is and while he may think me stupid for my political beliefs he can't make the argument that I don't do my job or that I do it in an unsatisfactory manner...there are too damned many other people in the room who would call him on it if he tried.

 

[JMohegan]

Yes people are equating it...or at least I am. Etoile specifically said she was asking about normal, everyday people not extremists so that is who I have been talking about. I won't argue that the right-wing extremists are more vocal than those on the left, people like Savage and all the crazy assed preachers you hear about prove that they are...but it's been established that those are the extremes not the norms of everyday life for most people.

Perhaps "hate" is the wrong word for what I experience and "intolerance" would serve better. Hate after all is truly more on the extreme end of the emotional spectrum. Whichever word you choose however, my experience of it is pretty much the same on both sides of the political divide when you're talking about Joe Blow on the street.

Thank you for clarifying. I agree with you; intolerance exists on both sides.

Personally, though, I'm having a hard time dismissing Savage as just some extremist, disconnected from "normal, everyday" folk. According to Wikipedia, Savage's radio show reaches "8 million listeners on 400 stations throughout the United States, ranking third in number of stations syndicated nationwide and third in nationwide audience behind Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity." That's quite an audience.

So I find myself wondering. At what point does a "right-wing extremist" become identifiable as "right-wing mainstream"?

 

[Netzach]

Thank you for clarifying. I agree with you; intolerance exists on both sides.

Personally, though, I'm having a hard time dismissing Savage as just some extremist, disconnected from "normal, everyday" folk. According to Wikipedia, Savage's radio show reaches "8 million listeners on 400 stations throughout the United States, ranking third in number of stations syndicated nationwide and third in nationwide audience behind Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity." That's quite an audience.

So I find myself wondering. At what point does a "right-wing extremist" become identifiable as "right-wing mainstream"?

And at what point does "oh no one listens to them" become everyone's problem?

 

[Etoile]

Left-wing "hate" = You're an idiot, and you should wake the fuck up and change the way you vote.

Right-wing hate = You're a traitor/pig/parasite/cockroach, and you should die.

This is exactly why I started the thread. Because there is a giant difference between the two. This is what I'm talking about when I say I see more "hate" from right-wing people than left-wing people. The difference between the two is that of hating the person vs. hating their beliefs. As I've mentioned before, my desire to discuss this topic comes from simply not knowing the answer to: "Why do they hate [us] so much?"

 

[caela]

Thank you for clarifying. I agree with you; intolerance exists on both sides.

Personally, though, I'm having a hard time dismissing Savage as just some extremist, disconnected from "normal, everyday" folk. According to Wikipedia, Savage's radio show reaches "8 million listeners on 400 stations throughout the United States, ranking third in number of stations syndicated nationwide and third in nationwide audience behind Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity." That's quite an audience.

So I find myself wondering. At what point does a "right-wing extremist" become identifiable as "right-wing mainstream"?

That is quite an audience...but all it gives is a number of listeners not how they break down. I think if you find a breakdown you'd find that there are people that disagree with nearly everything he says but listen anyway simply because of the shock value. There would also be people that agree with his position on certain topics and not on others, or may agree with him on what things are problems but not with how he would choose to solve them.

Hell I had a friend back home that used to listen to people like Savage and Rush simple because she found their extremism amusing. She couldn't understand how anyone could take them seriously and was utterly convinced that they simply spouted off as much as they did for ratings. She leaned left politically but was just flat out amused by these guys.

It was like that DJ who was based out of NY (I think), whose name is escaping me...skinny, lots of curly hair, sunglasses, talked about sex and supposedly had women stripping on air all the time...they did a study at one point and found out that the people who listened to him the longest on any given day were the ones that supposedly hated his program but listened to hear what craziness he'd say next.

I'm not trying to dismiss Savage, he has a huge audience and some of them probably do agree with his extreme views but I think that would be the minority of his audience and not a decent representation of "mainstream" conservative thought.

 

[Etoile]

Howard Stern.

 

[intothewoods]

That is quite an audience...but all it gives is a number of listeners not how they break down. I think if you find a breakdown you'd find that there are people that disagree with nearly everything he says but listen anyway simply because of the shock value. There would also be people that agree with his position on certain topics and not on others, or may agree with him on what things are problems but not with how he would choose to solve them.

Hell I had a friend back home that used to listen to people like Savage and Rush simple because she found their extremism amusing. She couldn't understand how anyone could take them seriously and was utterly convinced that they simply spouted off as much as they did for ratings. She leaned left politically but was just flat out amused by these guys.

It was like that DJ who was based out of NY (I think), whose name is escaping me...skinny, lots of curly hair, sunglasses, talked about sex and supposedly had women stripping on air all the time...they did a study at one point and found out that the people who listened to him the longest on any given day were the ones that supposedly hated his program but listened to hear what craziness he'd say next.

I'm not trying to dismiss Savage, he has a huge audience and some of them probably do agree with his extreme views but I think that would be the minority of his audience and not a decent representation of "mainstream" conservative thought.

Howard Stern?

I used to listen to Savage for entertainment value, but it just became too much. And the stakes were too high. There used to be a rumor that his whole thing was just shtick, because he used to be friends with Abby Hoffman or something.

 

[ThorkelGriersen]

This is exactly why I started the thread. Because there is a giant difference between the two. This is what I'm talking about when I say I see more "hate" from right-wing people than left-wing people. The difference between the two is that of hating the person vs. hating their beliefs. As I've mentioned before, my desire to discuss this topic comes from simply not knowing the answer to: "Why do they hate [us] so much?"

FEAR

Having been around for some time and being a student of human behavior, I think that all intense/irrational hatred comes from fear. Fear that the "other" is potentially me.

I could give a zillion examples. One or two might illustrate what I mean. In the 1960's Castro opened the gates when a large number of people began crowding into embassy grounds in Havana. When it became apparent that the US would admit these people, Castro saw a golden opportunity to get rid of all the people who were a problem for him--dissenters, the handicapped, criminals, homosexuals ( just a special class of criminals in Cuba), etc. When the gays arrived in Miami, the idea of being in a place where they suddenly had freedoms they had never had, they went a little crazy--like kids in the candy store. They didn't have a lot of money, but South Beach in those days was crawling with thrift stores. The result was that Sobe turned into one of the largest free-wheeling drag queen shows imaginable. The reaction of many people was most revealing, but one incident occurred that I will never forget.

I was seated in a café having a coffee and reading a newspaper, when a young man walked in. His clothes and general behavior indicated that he had probably just arrived from some rural area (N Florida, Georgia, etc) He sat down a dozen seats or so away at the counter. Actually I hadn't paid any attention to him until he began screaming. "Queers, Queers, Everywhere Queers. You're trying to get me. You'll never get me!" And he jumped up and ran out the door. All I could think of was --This guy has seen something that rings his bell AND scares the shit out of him. (If anyone doesn't understand this, rent the movie American Beauty. It covers the same turf; however this is more vivid to me than any movie because, of course, i saw it.

Also, [might as well do two] I have noticed that the people who yell the loudest about "welfare bums" are the same people who live paycheck to paycheck, which they cash at "CHECK CASHERS" because they don't have a bank account. These are people living one step from the bill collector and food stamps. All the doggerel about "socialists," seems to come from the people who never have two coins to rub together. FEAR.

[Personal confession: I do NOT live in a depressed area. Most of my neighbors are very liberal, to put it mildly. And, I don't know anyone who gets into the invective business.]

 

[Homburg]

Left-wing "hate" = You're an idiot, and you should wake the fuck up and change the way you vote.

This is the exact message behind most of right-wing talk radio. O'Reilly and Savage are bottom feeders to a disgusting extent. No, I'm not defending right wing radio. Just trying to point out that the excerpt posted in the OP is honestly the worst of the lot.

Right-wing hate = You're a traitor/pig/parasite/cockroach, and you should die.

"You're a pig, and you should die" is actually an all too common sentiment uttered by those ostensibly on the left. "Pig", in this case, being a term for law enforcement, of course.

Honestly though, we should compare apples to apples. Look at Air America and compare them to Savage and O'Reilly. That is a better choice than the poll that says "Will you vote for candidate X or your candidate of choice" which is what we're doing here. We're looking at an extremist wackaloon who gets paid based on hsi ratings, and does nothing more than seek those ratings amongst his fucked-up demographic.

Luckily for the gist of the thread, comparing various Air America hosts to Savage/O'Reilly/Hannity still makes the point Etoile is trying to make.

 

[Etoile]

You have to pay for Air America, right? Isn't it on XM? Or is it available free somehow?

 

[caela]

Howard Stern.

That was it!!! Thank you. For the life of me I could get this really clear image of him in my head but I couldn't draw his name out of my brain to save my life lol. One of the pitfalls of being pregnant.

 

[jockdom]

To quote the late and great Bill Hicks.
"Puppets to the right, puppets to the left, same guy pulling the strings."

 

[DVS]

I'm going to open myself up a little. I don't do that very often. I consider myself independent, but at the present time I have conservative tendencies. I've had liberal leanings before, but the more I hear how some talk, and just who among me are of the liberal persuasion, I'm inclined to change my status to conservative.

Don't get me wrong...both groups have very hateful people among them. That's for sure. I would even go to the point of saying it's equal in the hate department.

But, the basic conservatives that I know often seem to shake their heads and bite their lips, when liberals talk, because they know how hateful some can be when challenged. Maybe I don't know any basic liberals. I guess it's possible that all liberals that I encounter are extreme.

 

[00Syd]

Maybe liberals don't see liberals as hateful and conservatives don't see sonservatives as hateful because those are the people that they are around the most?

I will freely admit to growing up in downtown NYC, a left wing sort of neighborhood to say the least, going to a very hippy-dippy elementery school, on to an extremely liberal middle and high school and now into a liberal-leaning college in Boston. I don't have a whole shit ton of experience with those of a conservative persuasion, and am almost afraid of becoming friends with peers who I know do lean to the right, because I don't want to fight with my friends.

Maybe I (and other liberal leaning folks) see conservatives to be more hateful because they have less experience with them, and the experiences they do have are bad ones. I know that most of my experience with conservatives is being told that I'm going to hell, for example.

On this thread, those with conservative leanings seem (maybe I'm wrong on this) to have limited experience with liberals and vice versa. Maybe its just the fact that we are all surrounded by people of like mind that we see others to be more hateful than those we consider our friends and peers.

 

[rida]

to the OP:

"why they hate (us) so much?"

Because it is instinctive to fear all that is different and unknown. Why they don't bother to get to know the different so they are not unknown anymore? Because humans are lazy and rather enjoy the status quo if that is where they fit.


As for conservative and liberals, my experience is probably a bit different as it is not related to the US.

One of the most violent terrorist group that Italy saw were the Brigate Rosse (red brigades). They were an extreme left wing armed group and left a lot of death in their path. As a consequence, people were so scared that a lot of money got thrown to right and religious organizations to somewhat keep the youth from joining left leaning organizations. When I went to college (in the town that saw the birth of the BR as they were called), the fear of those years was starting to lift and leftish organizations were once again free to have clubs and events.

My group of friends was very varied: left, right, in between and totally indifferent (like me). We would chose the night club not by political leaning but by the band playing or the food available (usually better music in the liberal clubs and better food in the conservative ones). Political discussion would always be heated but all in all we always got along. And in spite of being the country of the Pope and Catholic guilt, I never particularly felt the hatred due to political leanings nor in relation to sexual orientations (although I confess I personally know very few openly gays or lesbians even thou I've seen many).

 

[midwestyankee]

You have to pay for Air America, right? Isn't it on XM? Or is it available free somehow?

Air America is broadcast as a syndicated show, so it is available through AM radio stations across the country. This link will take you to a page where you can search for stations near you that carry Air America programming. I now have it tuned in on my car radio so that I can listen while I run errands.

Note: Air America is also available on some satellite radio service plans.

 

[Etoile]

Thanks MWY! It's on AM 1260 here, I'll have to take a peek next time I listen to something other than NPR.

 

[midwestyankee]

Thanks MWY! It's on AM 1260 here, I'll have to take a peek next time I listen to something other than NPR.

I'm slowly getting to know the on-air personalities (aside from Rachel Maddow, whom I got to know from her appearances on MSNBC political shows). My only real complaint so far is that many of their advertisers seem to be the sort of company that usually buys late-night cable tv time for a 30 minute infomercial.

 

[Homburg]

Maybe liberals don't see liberals as hateful and conservatives don't see sonservatives as hateful because those are the people that they are around the most?

I will freely admit to growing up in downtown NYC, a left wing sort of neighborhood to say the least, going to a very hippy-dippy elementery school, on to an extremely liberal middle and high school and now into a liberal-leaning college in Boston. I don't have a whole shit ton of experience with those of a conservative persuasion, and am almost afraid of becoming friends with peers who I know do lean to the right, because I don't want to fight with my friends.

Maybe I (and other liberal leaning folks) see conservatives to be more hateful because they have less experience with them, and the experiences they do have are bad ones. I know that most of my experience with conservatives is being told that I'm going to hell, for example.

On this thread, those with conservative leanings seem (maybe I'm wrong on this) to have limited experience with liberals and vice versa. Maybe its just the fact that we are all surrounded by people of like mind that we see others to be more hateful than those we consider our friends and peers.

Depends. I honestly think that those what fall under the "conservative" appellation are a more forced coalition than those under the "liberal" umbrella. Honestly, I refuse to call myself conservative any more simply because I'm so bloody tired of some of the jackholes that (incorrectly) label themselves conservative (fun people like, y'know, Limbaugh). So I started saying that I was more of a "Goldwater Conservative", as Barry was some good shit. Then the jackholes started corrupting that term.

So I started to lean libertarian, but, well, they're pretty much batshit insane as a party. The principles are great, but, wow, looney in even moderate numbers. These days I just call myself a minarchist and let people scratch their heads.

Regardless, language is part of the issue here. The average conservative being tarred by the broad brush in this thread doesn't "hate" anyone, any more than the average liberal does. Intolerant bigots rarely hate those they are intolerant of, assholey though they may be. The language used is more hateful, sure, but so long as they do not act on it they're just being ill-mannered, small-minded louts.

"Hate" has become watered down by over-use.

----

As for conservative and liberals, my experience is probably a bit different as it is not related to the US.

One of the most violent terrorist group that Italy saw were the Brigate Rosse (red brigades). They were an extreme left wing armed group and left a lot of death in their path. As a consequence, people were so scared that a lot of money got thrown to right and religious organizations to somewhat keep the youth from joining left leaning organizations. When I went to college (in the town that saw the birth of the BR as they were called), the fear of those years was starting to lift and leftish organizations were once again free to have clubs and events.

This is part of my problem. I keep reading there's no hate on the left, and I keep remembering the Baader-Meinhoff Gang (German Red Army) in Germany in the 70's, and remember walking around the bombed ruins of the American high school in our housing area. And I have been told that the school bus that I was on was shot at by BMG operatives, but, hell, that was preschool, and I have no memories of it. Still, that is hate from the left, and just as violent and extreme as you could ask for.

 

[midwestyankee]

This is part of my problem. I keep reading there's no hate on the left, and I keep remembering the Baader-Meinhoff Gang (German Red Army) in Germany in the 70's, and remember walking around the bombed ruins of the American high school in our housing area. And I have been told that the school bus that I was on was shot at by BMG operatives, but, hell, that was preschool, and I have no memories of it. Still, that is hate from the left, and just as violent and extreme as you could ask for.

Homburg, I think that we in the U. S. sometimes lose sight of the fact that our conservative and liberal factions are much closer to each other than those groups that have operated at the conservative and liberal ends of the world-wide spectrum. For what it's worth, I've heard well-informed people make the claim that all but the most extreme right-wingers in the U. S. would be considered moderately liberal in other parts of the world.

 

[CutieMouse]

Maybe liberals don't see liberals as hateful and conservatives don't see sonservatives as hateful because those are the people that they are around the most?


Maybe I (and other liberal leaning folks) see conservatives to be more hateful because they have less experience with them, and the experiences they do have are bad ones. I know that most of my experience with conservatives is being told that I'm going to hell, for example.

On this thread, those with conservative leanings seem (maybe I'm wrong on this) to have limited experience with liberals and vice versa. Maybe its just the fact that we are all surrounded by people of like mind that we see others to be more hateful than those we consider our friends and peers.

I spent my "motherhood years" (about 10 of them) as one of the only conservatives in my group of peers. A Birkinstock wearing, non-vaccinating, personally pro-life leaning, home birthing, anti-medical establishment, un-schooling [radical homeschooling], health food eating, attachment parenting... conservative. The only thing that separated me from my peers was my politics.

Liberal or conservative - people are people.