Ain't No Time for Hate

[Lamont Cranston]

And animal activists with research facilities I guess.

I don't know why they do that.

I think they are the most extreme of the extremists, though. I would say that those people are even more cracked up than Mike Savage, who at least stays in his easy chair all the time. Liberal or conservative, if you're blowing shit up, you're fucking whacked in the head. IMHO. I think.

Amen!

 

[the captians wench]

I don't know, I tend to find an equal amount of hate coming from both sides, and these are "normal people"

I find, a good deal of the conservitive christains I have circling me will claim openness, but one look at my collar and I'm in the middle of a prayer meeting. They don't tend to do as much bashing, but the do call for a lot of convertions.

The liberals I know are ironicly all pagan. I say ironic because it just seems like a bit of irony that most people assosiate conservitives with christans and liberals as...other for lack of a better lable. But these guys will christian bash all day and all night. To the point where I was uncomfortable a lot of times.

I am very conservitive when it comes to my beliefs, I'm also very stuborn about them and it takes a good deal for me to change my mind, but it is possible. I am open to some things, and I don't believe it is right to hate. Personally i just can't bring myself to hate, I've tried. But i will very strongly disagree with you to the point that I won't talk about certain subjects. Which is one of the reasons I stay away from most political or religous threads around here.

 

[Etoile]

Unfortunately the one that comes to mind first would be from the campaigns and it would have come from a church. My other examples would probably be Islamic.

Admittedly I am primarily talking about American politics here. I don't think Islamic fundamentalists can properly be classed as "liberals" as we're discussing it. Preaching violence is not limited to Americans, but that's who I was asking about when I said "who does it more".

 

[Etoile]

Agreed. The key there though is to discuss and debate. A lot of people, on both sides, just seem to like to try to talk over each other without even realizing they are doing it.

Yes yes yes. Since I was a little girl, I have believed that people need to sit down and TALK TO EACH OTHER. I was 9 years old when Iraq invaded Kuwait, and the reason I heard at the time was "Iraq wanted Kuwait's land" or something like that. And I couldn't understand why people were shooting each other instead of sitting down and saying "okay how about you give us this and we give you that" and negotiating.

I feel the same way about the Israelis and Palestinians. It just amazes me that all the peace "talks" have failed. Like, why can't they just sit down and talk it out and everybody is happy?

I know that's idealist of me, but I still don't get why they can't do it.

 

[FFOTS4Life]

I'm really glad you posted this thread Etoile...I am finding it very interesting and enlightening.

 

[Lamont Cranston]

Admittedly I am primarily talking about American politics here. I don't think Islamic fundamentalists can properly be classed as "liberals" as we're discussing it. Preaching violence is not limited to Americans, but that's who I was asking about when I said "who does it more".

And my point is that I don't think either side 'does it more.' I worry that the debate is being basically negated by the people at the edges whether it is American politics or global politics and relationships. I'm hoping the people who are usually afraid to speak because they are closer to the center and might actually negotiate and compromise will speak out more. Then we might get somewhere.

And BTW, great thread you started here. Thank you.
LC

 

[caela]

Yes yes yes. Since I was a little girl, I have believed that people need to sit down and TALK TO EACH OTHER. I was 9 years old when Iraq invaded Kuwait, and the reason I heard at the time was "Iraq wanted Kuwait's land" or something like that. And I couldn't understand why people were shooting each other instead of sitting down and saying "okay how about you give us this and we give you that" and negotiating.

I feel the same way about the Israelis and Palestinians. It just amazes me that all the peace "talks" have failed. Like, why can't they just sit down and talk it out and everybody is happy?

I know that's idealist of me, but I still don't get why they can't do it.

2000 years (give or take a few centuries) of inbred, racial, cultural, and religious hatred is hard to just sit down and talk out.

Look at our own country and the problems we have here with racism and all it's attendant evils and we've only been around for a little more than 200 years and a good chunk of the last century we've spent trying to repair the damage done thanks to slavery.

The issues between the Israeli's and Palestinians have been building and brewing a lot longer than the issues between differing races here and are thusly even more complicated to solve. It doesn't help that a lot of time both sides are brought to the peace table but one or the other doesn't really want to be there and that both sides have extremists who will only be happy is the other side is wiped out entirely.

It would be nice if people could talk things out, sadly there are a lot of people who don't realize that they have two ears and one mouth so that they can listen twice as often as they speak and are unwilling to hear anything but the sound of their own voice.

 

[Lamont Cranston]

It would be nice if people could talk things out, sadly there are a lot of people who don't realize that they have two ears and one mouth so that they can listen twice as often as they speak and are unwilling to hear anything but the sound of their own voice.

Okay, that is a great observation. Can I quote it in a speech I have coming up?
LC

 

[Etoile]

And BTW, great thread you started here. Thank you.
LC

I'm really glad you posted this thread Etoile...I am finding it very interesting and enlightening.

Almost twenty minutes, but well worth the listen, for both conservative and liberal thinkers. Thanks, Etoile, for posting this.

Thanks guys. I am really happy with the way this discussion is going. Just what I was hoping for.

 

[caela]

Okay, that is a great observation. Can I quote it in a speech I have coming up?
LC

You can if you like. Though I have to give credit where it's due, it's one of my father's favorite sayings...no idea where he got it from though.

 

[Etoile]

You can if you like. Though I have to give credit where it's due, it's one of my father's favorite sayings...no idea where he got it from though.

The Internets give credit to Epictetus, a Greek philosopher. Wise words indeed.

 

[Lamont Cranston]

The Internets give credit to Epictetus, a Greek philosopher. Wise words indeed.

Okay, I'll go with that. Probably a bit easier for me than saying where I actually got it from given the audience, but thank you for the inspiration.

It conveys an important part of the message I'm trying to deliver in better words than I'd come up with so far. But then this whole thread is helping with that so thanks to all of you...
LC

 

[FFOTS4Life]

The Internets give credit to Epictetus, a Greek philosopher. Wise words indeed.

Ahh...I loved Epictetus when I was in philosophy...my favorites were John Stuart Mill and Immanuel Kant.

Sorry to Hijack the thread...just thought it was interesting that you mentioned him.

Now back to the discussion...

 

[caela]

The Internets give credit to Epictetus, a Greek philosopher. Wise words indeed.

Thanks! I don't know if my Dad even knows where it came from, next time he says it I can let him know.

 

[vampire28]

I live in a very conservative state, and I'm more liberal than most of the people I know. I think there are many reasons for the extreamists from both sides to be considered hateful. Most of those have been mentioned in this thread.

I do agree that conservatives tend to spend more time being intolerant of people who are not "like" them in personal choices. Perhaps this is because they are fundamentalists (most of whom have failed to really read the book they claim to follow); or it may be that they want the world to be what it was when they were children, felt safe, and didn't have to worry about so many different scary things happening at once. Or they may fear people who are different out of ignorance, not understanding what they stand for or believe.

Having said that, I've got to admit that I've met some truly vile liberals who hold the same ideas (usually without the fundamentalist beliefs). The liberals tend to look down on those who disagree with them, considering them to be intellectually inferior and/or foolishly naive.

I believe that most people are willing to accept others without making value judgements, but unfortunately it's the extreamists who make the most noise. They are the ones who get out and knock on doors and pass petitions and support politicians who shouldn't be elected to any public office because they've forgotten that the Constitution supports freedom for everyone.

What we need is a more involved middle-of-the-road constituancy. We need people who understand that freedom means supporting everyone's right to choose what they believe in. The fact is every time one group loses basic freedoms, we all lose them.

Rant over.

 

[Etoile]

Speaking of the Bible, I can't help wondering if there are people who take Luke 14:26 out of context and use it to justify their actions.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

... it may be that they want the world to be what it was when they were children, felt safe, and didn't have to worry about so many different scary things happening at once. Or they may fear people who are different out of ignorance, not understanding what they stand for or believe.

Excellent point, and one we sometimes fail to consider. It seems to me that much hate-mongering - from any side - boils down to fear of some sort.

... I believe that most people are willing to accept others without making value judgements, but unfortunately it's the extremists who make the most noise. They are the ones who get out and knock on doors and pass petitions and support politicians who shouldn't be elected to any public office because they've forgotten that the Constitution supports freedom for everyone.

Yes!

What we need is a more involved middle-of-the-road constituency. We need people who understand that freedom means supporting everyone's right to choose what they believe in. The fact is every time one group loses basic freedoms, we all lose them.

Thank you for bringing this up. The more from all walks of life, all viewpoints, all beliefs, who become involved in the dialogue, the more opportunities we have to gain a true consensus of tolerance and progress. While the extremists may rant and shout and cry, we/those of the middle can and should be able to "marginalize" them to the extent that their views are heard and considered, but do not overwhelm the common sense of "us" as a people and a nation.

 

[graceanne]

You obviously haven't met the same liberals I have IRL.

Same here. But I have a question: Etoile? Are you on the liberal side of things? If you are, then probably the radical liberals wouldn't show their not-so-nice side to you. I don't get that crap from the conservatives, cause I'm on the conservative side of things, and a Christian too. But then, I'm not going to say that they aren't rude. K listens to conservative radio all the time (Michael Savage, Rush Limbaugh) and I won't - they're assholes. But I sure as heck am not going to listen to the liberals, either.

 

[JMohegan]

I encourage everyone to watch this segment of Bill Moyer's Journal: Rage on the Radio. (Yes, I made the ******* myself.) A complete transcript is available.

I don't understand why right-wing people are so full of hate. Liberals tend not to be hateful. There are exceptions to the rule, of course, but generally liberals don't condemn people the way conservatives do. The vitriol spewed by right-wing radio hosts is just appalling. Liberals just don't hate the way conservatives do. Why are they like this? Jesus certainly didn't tell them to propose violence against their fellow human beings. Where is this hate from? Why do they hate so much?

I 'd say that many on both sides of the right/left divide are angry, and the majority of those who are angry feel that their own anger is righteous while the other side's anger is unjustified.

I'd also say that both sides are capable of demonstrating, and frequently do demonstrate, a marked lack of respect escalating to vitriolic rudeness when discussing the other side's point of view.

But when it comes to misogyny and racial hatred and religious hatred and hatred of those with alternative sexual orientation, hatreds based not on opinions or personal choices but hatred of others simply for who they are, hatreds so profound that the haters are driven to subjugate and oppress and physically assault or even murder other human beings -- that's a right wing thing.

"Liberals just don't hate the way conservatives do."

Substitute left & right for liberal & conservative in that sentence, and I agree with you.

To me, "conservative" = someone who advocates fiscal restraint, keeping the government out of peoples' way at home, and speaking softly and carrying a big stick in the world at large.

True conservatism (as I would define it) has been overrun by evangelical, anti-intellectual, unprincipled, Constitution ripping, privacy invading, hundreds of billions of dollars of deficit producing, right wingers.

 

[CutieMouse]

To me, "conservative" = someone who advocates fiscal restraint, keeping the government out of peoples' way at home, and speaking softly and carrying a big stick in the world at large.

True conservatism (as I would define it) has been overrun by evangelical, anti-intellectual, unprincipled, Constitution ripping, privacy invading, hundreds of billions of dollars of deficit producing, right wingers.

Yes. Which is why I self-ID as Conservative, not Republican.

 

[graceanne]

To me, "conservative" = someone who advocates fiscal restraint, keeping the government out of peoples' way at home, and speaking softly and carrying a big stick in the world at large.

True conservatism (as I would define it) has been overrun by evangelical, anti-intellectual, unprincipled, Constitution ripping, privacy invading, hundreds of billions of dollars of deficit producing, right wingers.

What an awesome definition.

And yep, yep. I used to be a republican, but I've come to realize that they want the govt to control America as much as the democrats - just in different areas. The democrats want gun control, and the republicans want to 'protect people from their vices', etc. K and I switched to indipendant, but we still consider ourselves conservatives - we just want the government to mind it's own business, and to stop spending us into debt to freaken CHINA!

 

[off2bed]

To me, "conservative" = someone who advocates fiscal restraint, keeping the government out of peoples' way at home, and speaking softly and carrying a big stick in the world at large.

Too bad there's no viable political party who has that as their core beliefs. I'll bet even a lot of liberals would jump on board that one.

 

[graceanne]

Too bad there's no viable political party who has that as their core beliefs. I'll bet even a lot of liberals would jump on board that one.

Seriously.

 

[subbie_333]

i haven't listened to the link yet, so, crucify (oops, can i use that word?!?!?) me if y'all want.

i don't have a real good way to say this stuff yet, maybe because i don't think it is worth my time to actually figure out what is wrong with some of the more extreme people, mainly cus i don't think i could do anything to change them. So. i'll just throw out some disconnected thoughts.


My problem with a lot of Christians, and many who claim to be politically conservative, is the hypocrisy. Too many times they are guilty of the same things they criticize in others.

The more extreme Christians seem to be too worried about what happens in this life. Yes, Jesus wants them to spread the Word, but, he also told them to not judge, as that is God's job. So, if they are so certain of God and Heaven and Salvation, why are they *so* upset about what happens here?

When it comes to what they are upset about when it relates to others, Christians and conservatives are more interested in stopping things that other people do to themselves, although it has no direct (and maybe no indirect) affect on the Christians and conservatives. They like to claim that their own will fall prey to the evil of the others, and, those people have to be stopped before that happens

When it comes to what they are upset about when it relates to others, the liberals are more interested in stopping things that other people do to society and the environment as a whole, claiming that those actions affect everyone. They like to claim that the selfishness of some is harmful to all, and, those people have to be stopped before that happens.

Many of the liberals who are angry at Christians and conservatives express their anger in a knee-jerk type of reaction to what they perceive as unprovoked attacks upon their lifestyle choices.

Many Christians and conservatives who are are angry at liberals dislike the intrusion of the liberal lifestyle into the visible portions of society.

Many Christians and conservatives look to government as a tool for removing some of the liberal lifestyle from the visible (and sometimes nonvisible) portions of society.

Many liberals feel that being offended is a choice, and, is the responsibility of the one being offended.

Many Christians and conservatives feel that being offended is an intrusion, and, is the responsibility of the one doing the offending.


So, basically, the more extreme folks want to control the behavior (and sometimes the thought processes) of the others, while the vast majority of the people in the middle just want to be left alone to control their own lives.

 

[subbie_333]

Too bad there's no viable political party who has that as their core beliefs. I'll bet even a lot of liberals would jump on board that one.

i am not so sure that a ton of liberals like the idea of being the world's policeman