Ain't No Time for Hate

[Netzach]

OK, just to be the devil's advocate (and just to get you all feisty cus you are so cute when that happens), one can argue that by settling down into your comfortable community you are choosing to be that vast silent majority that i speak of above who just wants to be left alone to control their own lives. Wouldn't you be more effective and constructive if you lived some place hostile towards you so that you can stand up for the persecuted and convert the intolerant to be tolerant? Since you are physically not in that type of community, aren't you condoning that hatred by not being there to actively fight it?

Uh, my neighborhood may have a lot of Obama lawn signs in it, but I live in the Midwest. I've been pulled aside by people at work because they "don't want that Jewish lady to wait on them" and I guess I telegraph my "Jewess" less than my co-worker did.

(I told her she didn't want me to wait on her either then and handed her off to someone else. And I didn't get fired for that.)

I definitely encounter people who believe in a different fiscal mentality than I do, different opinions on abortion, and I live a short drive away from the people who voted Michelle Bachman in. If anything, I live in the most American of American cities at the moment. It's not NYC anymore, toto.

Things are periodically defaced here with hate graffiti, and then the following day people come out to clean them off and raise funds to do it. Muslim-owned stores got trashed, AND got more people in to buy things than ever after being trashed.

I live a reasonably comfortable existence, you are right. However it's not so comfortable that I'm not exactly sure that there are in fact people who hate my kind purely because it's my kind, it's not so comfortable that I can afford to refuse my affections and affiliations to anyone whose politics aren't "perfectly pure" like some of my east coast friends were more able to.

It's not so comfortable that my mind didn't change on a couple of issues I feel strongly about, completely. (Gun control and hunting)

Unless you're saying that I should be in Tibet or something right now, not the US at all. To which I say, I send money to MADRE every year, and I live here, I'm not leaving much as everyone seems to want me to.

 

[JMohegan]

I know you meant this for Homburg but I had to comment on it. I don't think that he, CM, EG, myself, or any of the other self-identified conservatives on this board are special cases. I think we are actually much more the norm and that you are right only in that the hate-mongers have outshouted us.

To some degree this is the fault of the media because, in all honesty, the hate-mongers bring in better ratings/readerships with their ranting than more level heads would.

I welcome comments from anybody on anything I write. The addressee doesn't matter.

Caela, where do ratings come from? How is readership measured?

Those are numbers. Not a measure of sound decibels, but a measure of the number of people who directly support the commercial success of a program.

In terms of nationwide audience - again, an actual numeric head count - the top 3 radio programs in this country currently are:

1 - Rush Limbaugh
2 - Sean Hannity
3 - Michael Savage

When the heir to William F. Buckley, Jr. overtakes these hate-mongers in ratings, I'll agree that the "special cases" on this board represent the norm.

To some degree this is also our own fault because we recognize it for what it is and many of us simply don't engage these people (knowing it would be pointless because they won't hear anything that disagrees with them) and let them rant instead of giving whomever is focusing on them another point of view.

Thank you for saying this.

This is the hardest part for me to understand. If Edmund Burke is right, and “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,” then why are so many good Americans silent?

 

[subbie_333]

This is the hardest part for me to understand. If Edmund Burke is right, and “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing,” then why are so many good Americans silent?

Because those that speak up get attacked, and, in many cases, get their privacy/rights violated. And, in too many of those cases, justice is not served in response to those violations of privacy/rights. What is wrong with that picture?

 

[midwestyankee]

Because those that speak up get attacked, and, in many cases, get their privacy/rights violated. And, in too many of those cases, justice is not served in response to those violations of privacy/rights. What is wrong with that picture?

So Lincoln was right when he said that saying or doing nothing turns men into cowards.

What I see (and ymmv) in the followers of Hannity and Limbaugh and the rest is mob action. Their listeners take comfort in being not alone with their anger and resentment. And so being in the mob amplifies their sense of power sufficiently for them to get through to another boring, unsatisfying day.

 

[subbie_333]

So Lincoln was right when he said that saying or doing nothing turns men into cowards.

i guess so. But, also points out where i see that government does have a role. It should protect the weak from the bullies. But, being a coward doesn't mean giving up your rights. Government should protect the rights of its citizens, whether they are weak or choose to be a pacifist.

 

[midwestyankee]

i guess so. But, also points out where i see that government does have a role. It should protect the weak from the bullies. But, being a coward doesn't mean giving up your rights. Government should protect the rights of its citizens, whether they are weak or choose to be a pacifist.

So how is it a stretch from this position to think that government ought to have some role in protecting the economically weak as well as the socially weak?

 

[Netzach]

i guess so. But, also points out where i see that government does have a role. It should protect the weak from the bullies. But, being a coward doesn't mean giving up your rights. Government should protect the rights of its citizens, whether they are weak or choose to be a pacifist.

Who's saying anyone's giving up their rights?

I just can't respect them if they can't pony up ever, so sorry if you might get caught in an argument. So sorry if you might lose a promotion or something because you said you don't think it's right my tranny friend got fired. If you lose your job too, then yeah, you are my friend, for sure.

Personally, I made my own job and carved my own niche mostly because I never want to have to kiss the ass of someone who would fire me if they knew what I was. I'm lucky to have the drive and weird skills to sustain myself without a physical corporate campus. More people could do it than probably realize, but you have to want to do it more than anything on earth you can think of.

It's not like there are squadrons to kill them on the loose, there are just expectant and fed up human beings waiting for some of these "allies" to actually do something. The people who are being fucked have their ass on the line all the time.

 

[JMohegan]

Because those that speak up get attacked, and, in many cases, get their privacy/rights violated. And, in too many of those cases, justice is not served in response to those violations of privacy/rights. What is wrong with that picture?

I have marched in opposition to the Bush administration many times, knocked on doors in multiple states and many different socioeconomic neighborhoods, written thousands of letters and emails, engaged friends, acquaintances and neighbors in conversation, spoken up on message boards.

I have not been physically attacked, though I have been on the receiving end of some extremely hateful vitriol. If my privacy/rights have been violated, I am not yet aware of it.

What you speak of has occurred, I don't deny it. But using those incidents as an excuse for silence is a copout that I refuse to acknowledge as legitimate.

If you want to talk about REAL courage in the face of truly threatening conditions, lets talk about James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner. Unless and until we're all operating in that kind of environment, I call bullshit on the idea that there's nothing good Americans can conceivably do.

 

[Netzach]

I have marched in opposition to the Bush administration many times, knocked on doors in multiple states and many different socioeconomic neighborhoods, written thousands of letters and emails, engaged friends, acquaintances and neighbors in conversation, spoken up on message boards.

I have not been physically attacked, though I have been on the receiving end of some extremely hateful vitriol. If my privacy/rights have been violated, I am not yet aware of it.

What you speak of has occurred, I don't deny it. But using those incidents as an excuse for silence is a copout that I refuse to acknowledge as legitimate.

If you want to talk about REAL courage in the face of truly threatening conditions, lets talk about James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner. Unless and until we're all operating in that kind of environment, I call bullshit on the idea that there's nothing good Americans can conceivably do.

Like I said, better people than I have been killed over this stuff.

 

[subbie_333]

So how is it a stretch from this position to think that government ought to have some role in protecting the economically weak as well as the socially weak?

Because it is a stretch to claim the right to have economic or social strength. The government's role should be to protect one from having their rights violated so that one can pursue economic and social strength.

 

[Netzach]

Because it is a stretch to claim the right to have economic or social strength. The government's role should be to protect one from having their rights violated so that one can pursue economic and social strength.

It helps to have a roof overhead and to not have a chronic untreated disease if you're about to "pursue happiness"

 

[subbie_333]

Who's saying anyone's giving up their rights?

I just can't respect them if they can't pony up ever, so sorry if you might get caught in an argument. So sorry if you might lose a promotion or something because you said you don't think it's right my tranny friend got fired. If you lose your job too, then yeah, you are my friend, for sure.

Personally, I made my own job and carved my own niche mostly because I never want to have to kiss the ass of someone who would fire me if they knew what I was. I'm lucky to have the drive and weird skills to sustain myself without a physical corporate campus. More people could do it than probably realize, but you have to want to do it more than anything on earth you can think of.

It's not like there are squadrons to kill them on the loose, there are just expectant and fed up human beings waiting for some of these "allies" to actually do something. The people who are being fucked have their ass on the line all the time.

What you quoted from me in your response is where i was making the point that not speaking up against hate may result in having one lableled as a coward (or a pacifist), but, that doesn't mean that they give up their right to have the government protect them from the haters violating their rights. Too many have resisted the haters, to then have their rights violated by the haters, and, the government and legal system let them down when it came time to serve justice. So, some see that failure, and, choose to not stand up to the haters. They are not giving up their rights, they are conceding that sometimes their rights are not protected.

 

[subbie_333]

<snip>

What you speak of has occurred, I don't deny it. But using those incidents as an excuse for silence is a copout that I refuse to acknowledge as legitimate.

< snip>

i don't think any of us disagree with that in principle. But, tell that to the victims of the violence.

But, i believe that what we have now in society is a difference of opinion on how to "fix" these problems - as opposed to whether or not there *are* any problems.

 

[subbie_333]

It helps to have a roof overhead and to not have a chronic untreated disease if you're about to "pursue happiness"

i agree. But, does the Constitution state that it is solely the responsibility of the United States government to provide that "help" with taxpayer dollars?

 

[Netzach]

Too many have resisted the haters, to then have their rights violated by the haters, and, the government and legal system let them down when it came time to serve justice.

Really?

Like, recently? What do you mean - fired from jobs?

"Leave him alone, Jim he ain't doin' nothin to you."

Is that a thing of the past? Since there's so many more people who feel that way than not, it seems like these fringe people can't be that threatening, can they?

 

[Netzach]

i agree. But, does the Constitution state that it is solely the responsibility of the United States government to provide that "help" with taxpayer dollars?

I like to think I live in the civilized world. It may not be in the fine print, it's in my basic kindergarten moral compass. And no one said anything about "solely" I'm saying "if nothing else"

 

[JMohegan]

i don't think any of us disagree with that in principle. But, tell that to the victims of the violence.

But, i believe that what we have now in society is a difference of opinion on how to "fix" these problems - as opposed to whether or not there *are* any problems.

What's your suggestion?

You keep talking about the role of government, but guess what! Government is run by those whom the people elect, and in 2004 "the people" put their stamp of endorsement on the Bush administration - lies, unprovoked invasions, disregard for privacy rights, failure to uphold the Constitution, and so on.

If you want to look to government to guarantee your rights/privacy/etc., step one is electing those inclined to do so.

 

[midwestyankee]

i agree. But, does the Constitution state that it is solely the responsibility of the United States government to provide that "help" with taxpayer dollars?

Who said anything about the government being the "sole source" of social aid? And, frankly, I get really sick and tired of people from my right hiding behind the Constitution when they have a weak argument about social issues.

 

[subbie_333]

Really?

Like, recently? What do you mean - fired from jobs?

"Leave him alone, Jim he ain't doin' nothin to you."

Is that a thing of the past?

i was referring more to violence - actual violation of rights.

Back to the more general theme of the thread - "sticks and stones may break my bones, but, words will never hurt me"

 

[subbie_333]

What's your suggestion?

You keep talking about the role of government, but guess what! Government is run by those whom the people elect, and in 2004 "the people" put their stamp of endorsement on the Bush administration - lies, unprovoked invasions, disregard for privacy rights, failure to uphold the Constitution, and so on.

If you want to look to government to guarantee your rights/privacy/etc., step one is electing those inclined to do so.

OK, everybody, raise hands: who has heard me suggest voting Libertarian?

 

[Netzach]

i was referring more to violence - actual violation of rights.

Back to the more general theme of the thread - "sticks and stones may break my bones, but, words will never hurt me"

I'm sorry. I haven't read many news stories about people being hung on fences to die because they said to their fraternity "you shouldn't kill that faggot."

If you can provide examples, I'm all ears.

 

[subbie_333]

Who said anything about the government being the "sole source" of social aid?

A number of socialists. My point being that it is not government's role to fund *any* of it anyway.

And, frankly, I get really sick and tired of people from my right hiding behind the Constitution when they have a weak argument about social issues.

Cool, me too. i hate hypocrites as well.

 

[Netzach]

Doesn't "well we don't want to stand up to these people because they're scary and violent" prove my point that there's a statistically significant number of scary and violent MF's who are a problem from this political direction?

I'm not saying ONLY from this political direction. But let's just stay with what's here for a second, not with what's everywhere else.

 

[Netzach]

A number of socialists. My point being that it is not government's role to fund *any* of it anyway.

So the GI Bill was a miscarriage of governmental authority. I'm just checking here. So are food stamps. It's better to just let the weak ones die off of starvation. Why do we even have schools?

 

[JMohegan]

OK, everybody, raise hands: who has heard me suggest voting Libertarian?

So... what you're doing to solve the problem is speaking out on behalf of a more reasonable alternative. Urging people to vote Libertarian. Is that right?

Have you been beaten up yet for spreading this view? Had the government raid your home, lock you up, whatever?