AH has been bad.

[gunhilltrain]

It's been bad for a few decades. Even big publishing houses have become very sloppy.

A professor of mine at uni, who moonlighted as a copyeditor, was unable to read any book without a pencil to mark all the mistakes he found. I'm not that bad, but typos in published works set my teeth on edge. Too many, and I'll toss the book.

It depended on the kind of book and how long it took to create it. In the 1980s, I worked for a publisher of scientific and medical books, and their standards were high. They were as close to perfect as we could make them.

I also worked for two publishers of legal books, those ones you used to see in binders in lawyers' offices. I guess they have mostly been replaced by on-line material. The authors were usually partners at big firms, and they only wrote for the prestige value. They were late with everything, manuscripts and proofs, but then they'd make numerous changes on their proofs. One guy practically rewrote the book during that phase.

Also, the pages in binders were only partially replaced each year. You can imagine the headaches of trying to fit the different old and new elements together. Anyway, we were so rushed at the end of the fiscal year (the end of October) that the quality was low.

 

[magnetarhanggliding]

An eye-opening and sobering thread to read. As a new writer I know I perform info dumps in my works too often.

Something I'm continuously trying to work on.

 

[XerXesXu]

Also, the pages in binders were only partially replaced each year. You can imagine the headaches of trying to fit the different old and new elements together.

That task was always given to the pupil (apprentice) barristers in chambers. It was time-consuming and boring, the only task that remotely resembled work.

 

[gunhilltrain]

That task was always given to the pupil (apprentice) barristers in chambers. It was time-consuming and boring, the only task that remotely resembled work.

Well no, you're talking about what was done at the law firm after they got the printed "supplement." It was shrinkwrapped and holes were drilled in the pages for the binder rings.

Do you know anything about photo-offset printing? It was our job as production people to plan out the supplement and create the "mechanicals" or "camera copy" that went to the printer. So we had these big pieces of cardboard with the text waxed (not glued) onto then. After page 100, there might be new pages 100.1, 100.2, and so forth that had to link up with the text on the old page 101.

Then we had to create the "filing instructions" (on a typewriter!) so that told those poor apprentices would know what to do with the package they got.

Fascinating, isn't it? I should have followed my earlier career goals which were completely unrealistic, but I twas only eleven or twelve-years-old. Like being a wide receiver on a pro football team. At least I didn't want to be a linebacker.

 

[XerXesXu]

Well no, you're talking about what was done at the law firm after they got the printed "supplement." It was shrinkwrapped and holes were drilled in the pages for the binder rings.

Do you know anything about photo-offset printing? It was our job as production people to plan out the supplement and create the "mechanicals" or "camera copy" that went to the printer. So we had these big pieces of cardboard with the text waxed (not glued) onto then. After page 100, there might be new pages 100.1, 100.2, and so forth that had to link up with the text on the old page 101.

Then we had to create the "filing instructions" (on a typewriter!) so that told those poor apprentices would know what to do with the package they got.

Fascinating, isn't it? I should have followed my earlier career goals which were completely unrealistic, but I twas only eleven or twelve-years-old. Like being a wide receiver on a pro football team. At least I didn't want to be a linebacker.

At least you know we shared your pain.

I can't remember what I wanted to be at 11 or 12. Our mother used to sing 'Que sera' to us, so we didn't give it too much thought.

 

[gunhilltrain]

At least you know we shared your pain.

I can't remember what I wanted to be at 11 or 12. Our mother used to sing 'Que sera' to us, so we didn't give it too much thought.

For about ten months I didn't want to go to a high school that didn't have a football team. And the high schools where I lived were - well, rough. I also had periodic interests in being a firefighter. That wasn't realistic either, although it came and went until I was about twenty. Then there also were times when I wanted to get away from office jobs and academics, so I had an interest in various construction jobs. I did study city planning at Rutgers when I was in my thirties, but it was impossible to do that part-time while working more than full-time (one of those publishing jobs) and trying to raise a family.

I probably would have wound up advocating useless light rail lines in a place like Phoenix.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I probably would have wound up advocating useless light rail lines in a place like Phoenix.

Think of the photo opportunities, though .

 

[Tio_Narratore]

My apologies for going back to Moby Dick but this is Lit and we can indulge ourselves in whatever vices we favor.

An uncle gave me Moby Dick to read when I was eight. He told me to read it then and reread it when I was older. I read it then, and saw it as an adventure story with a lot of detail. I didn't mind the detail, but it was the action that drew my attention. I read it again in high school and realized it wasn't an adventure story at all. The "info dump" was no dump; it was an ethnography of whaling, an ethnography deep enough to bring the reader into the world of whaling. And deep enough to realize, to understand, that Ahab was not whaling. Whaling was a business, a very American business to begin with, and the story told of the American dream - every man, including tattooed pagans, were judged on their abilities, not their pedigrees, and all worked together for their common good - and its destruction. Ahab captained the Pequod for revenge, and an unholy revenge, an ego-driven quest to slay the creature that had taken Ahab's leg in self-defense. The egomaniacal master drew the crew into his quest with a gold coin nailed to the mast, and with that their fate was sealed. The ship, the Pequod, was not a random name; the Pequod wars were. in their own way, a betrayal of the American dream. There was to be no comradery between Native and Colonizer; the other had to be exterminated. So, as I saw it, not an adventure story at all, but a very deep morality play.

More recently, Umberto Eco's first novel, the Name of the Rose, became a best seller as a "murder mystery," despite its wealth of detail and frequent use of Latin phrases. It wasn't about the murders though, it was about the human condition, and that's what much of the detail and the conclusion, the discovery of the ultimate cause of the murders, provided.

In my field, Anthropology, we are very fond of what we call "thick description;" it gives us entry into worlds we know we don't understand. It allows us to see things beyond our given cultural realities. I think it not necessarily an "info dump" unless all you want to see is what you are already comfortable with, what you already see as true.

 

[Actingup]

In my field, Anthropology, we are very fond of what we call "thick description;" it gives us entry into worlds we know we don't understand. It allows us to see things beyond our given cultural realities. I think it

I am really hanging out there for the end of this sentence....

Les Miserables springs to mind. Extraordinary, thick upon thick description. The whole weight of history pouring on you like molasses from a Boston silo and yet it was a massive hit. Of course Hugo was a giant, writing about things that were so close to people's hearts, but still....

 

[Tio_Narratore]

If I figure out where I was going, I'll let you know. I don't even remember writing that fragment, but it does sound like it should lead to something interesting.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Found it:

I think it not necessarily an "info dump" unless all you want to see is what you are already comfortable with, what you already see as true.

 

[Actingup]

Found it:

I think it not necessarily an "info dump" unless all you want to see is what you are already comfortable with, what you already see as true.

Cheers - and I'll let the Les Mis example stand. Perhaps you could argue that we should all know what the mean streets of Paris were really like, or the field of Waterloo, but after being beaten on the head with it, you KNOW.

 

[AG31]

Happy to see the conversation between @Tio_Narratore and @Actingup, as it gives me permission to comment on a different, much praised book, James, by Percival Everett, that I just "finished". It was awful!!! It was a simple minded tract hung on someone else's plot. The conversation never rose to the heights of real people talking together. I stopped reading at page 10 and skimmed the rest to see if things improved. They didn't.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Think of the photo opportunities, though .

The thing actually exists now. Great palm trees, cactus, and mesas or whatever they are. Plenty of potential passenger demand from those.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Phoenix_Exterior_Camelback.2009.jpg

 

[gunhilltrain]

Found it:

I think it not necessarily an "info dump" unless all you want to see is what you are already comfortable with, what you already see as true.

One person's info dump is another person's description. The beginning of The Day of the Locust (1939) is entirely about how Todd Hackett, a former New Englander, sees Hollywood.

But not even the soft wash of dusk could help the houses. Only dynamite
would be of any use against the Mexican ranch houses, Samoan huts,
Mediterranean villas, Egyptian and Japanese temples, Swiss chalets, Tudor
cottages, and every possible combination of these styles that lined the
slopes of the canyon.

------------

It is hard to laugh at the need for beauty and romance, no matter how
tasteless, even horrible, the results of that need are. But it is easy to
sigh. Few things are sadder than the truly monstrous.

####

It was West's fourth novel, and he finally seemed to be hitting his stride. Yet he was a terrible driver, by most accounts, and he died in an accident the following year.

 

[Eosphorus]

Infodump one:

Infodump two:

A world of difference.

Lol. Perfect example. The big difference is Brian DePalma wrote the first one for Lucas. Not so with the second.

I found that a small info dump can work just not at the beginning. And kept it to need-to-know information. That being said, I wrote a few rambling and ridiculous info dumps early in my career.

 

[StillStunned]

I found that a small info dump can work just not at the beginning. And kept it to need-to-know information. That being said, I wrote a few rambling and ridiculous info dumps early in my career.

I always say: you're telling the reader your story on credit. They've agreed to go along, based on an enticing title or tag line, or because they trust you as an author.

But they're interested in characters or plot, not background. An infodump is essentially saying, "Bear with me for a while, we'll get to the interesting bits soon." The more you've hooked them, the longer they'll bear with you. If you can make your infodump exciting (like in the first Star Wars example I quoted - with exciting words like war and hidden base) it will give you even more credit. If you go on about trade disputes and blockades, well...

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

It was editing that took me to the point that I just can't ignore certain things and it bursts my enjoyment of some things. I've also developed quite the eye for grammar mistakes or typos in professionally published work. Stand out to me like someone had used a highlighter.

I read almost everything on my tablet these days, and the Kindle app is great. The only thing that I highlight in any books when I read them is grammatical errors. Books are dotted with yellow because of errors, and I know it's not always fair because it's clear to me some of the books are just really bad text transitions from the print to an electronic copy, but still - somebody should have edited that shit.

 

[AG31]

But they're interested in characters or plot, not background. An infodump is essentially saying, "Bear with me for a while, we'll get to the interesting bits soon."

I don't want to go back and review this thread, but I agree with the folks who make a case for rich detail not always being an "info dump." It depends on the author, and, I suppose, the reader.

 

[Eosphorus]

I always say: you're telling the reader your story on credit. They've agreed to go along, based on an enticing title or tag line, or because they trust you as an author.

But they're interested in characters or plot, not background. An infodump is essentially saying, "Bear with me for a while, we'll get to the interesting bits soon." The more you've hooked them, the longer they'll bear with you. If you can make your infodump exciting (like in the first Star Wars example I quoted - with exciting words like war and hidden base) it will give you even more credit. If you go on about trade disputes and blockades, well...

All true. Especially your point that readers care about the characters and plot, not background. I like to keep any setup short, which the Star Wars intros are.

Are you saying trade disputes and blockades aren’t exciting?

 

[Eosphorus]

One person's info dump is another person's description. The beginning of The Day of the Locust (1939) is entirely about how Todd Hackett, a former New Englander, sees Hollywood.

But not even the soft wash of dusk could help the houses. Only dynamite
would be of any use against the Mexican ranch houses, Samoan huts,
Mediterranean villas, Egyptian and Japanese temples, Swiss chalets, Tudor
cottages, and every possible combination of these styles that lined the
slopes of the canyon.

------------

It is hard to laugh at the need for beauty and romance, no matter how
tasteless, even horrible, the results of that need are. But it is easy to
sigh. Few things are sadder than the truly monstrous.

####

It was West's fourth novel, and he finally seemed to be hitting his stride. Yet he was a terrible driver, by most accounts, and he died in an accident the following year.

I agree that’s not an info dump. That’s a great introduction.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Or maybe it's done me a favor. Probably the latter.

Since the 70's I've kept a list of reliable authors (library, not Lit). First in a notebook and then on a spread sheet. Having frequented AH for about 3 years now... No! four!, I've accumulated language for describing the kind of writing I'm encountering. Things like "info dump" and "telling, not showing." So now, when I'm not really getting into a story and can diagnose the cause, I'm more inclined to move the author from "reliable" to "rejects."

I guess that's a good thing, so thanks, AH.

If I like the story, I don't care if they show, info dump, describe for a 100 pages, but if I don't like the story, it's because everything they do and how they do it is not to my taste.

 

[ChloeTzang]

An eye-opening and sobering thread to read. As a new writer I know I perform info dumps in my works too often.

Something I'm continuously trying to work on.

The trick is to work them into the story so that they're part of the story and needed for some reason, rather than just dumping a couple of paragraphs in as one big dump. And on top of that it has to sound natural so you don't throw the reader out. That, and if you get one thing wrong, the nitpickers will be after you