Aggression and violence

[sweetnpetite]

But that's something of a generalisation. I don't believe there is a trigger for me to hit a lady (unless she's given me the paddle and told me how bad she's been of course ). I can't even strike properly at women in karate sparring and that's feather-touches in a controlled environment. Violence against any person is completely against all of my moral codas and I've actually been punched and kicked without retaliating.

Yet I've put a hole in a drywall before whilst crying over my former Lady. It's not an everyday occurence, but I've hit things from frustration before, although never in front of anyone else. Would you count me as a 'safe' person to go out with?

The Earl

It doesn't matter if you ever would- because you put the fear into your partner and that is not healthy for the relationship.

Also- abusers often are people who thought that they would never do the things they do. "I'll yell but I won't push. I'll push but I won't hit. I'll hit but I won't leave marks. I'll leave marks but I won't send her to the hospital. I'll send her to the hospital, but I'd never go so far that it would kill her...) the threshold just keeps getting pushed back as more and more violent behavior become acceptable.

 

[carsonshepherd]

It doesn't matter if you ever would- because you put the fear into your partner and that is not healthy for the relationship.

Also- abusers often are people who thought that they would never do the things they do. "I'll yell but I won't push. I'll push but I won't hit. I'll hit but I won't leave marks. I'll leave marks but I won't send her to the hospital. I'll send her to the hospital, but I'd never go so far that it would kill her...) the threshold just keeps getting pushed back as more and more violent behavior become acceptable.

This has nothing to do with punching walls.

Yes, it CAN be a manipulative and threatening behavior, when done in the context of a heated fight, to scare the other person. But it can also be a way of releasing unbearable tension when alone, with no one watching. (Like myself and, I think, Earl.)

although never in front of anyone else.

I have no tendency toward violence. I control my temper very well. I don't like it when I kick walls, (Or dent my filing cabinet so the drawers won't close) but I do it sometimes, and that doesn't mean I'm a potential abuser, and neither is Earl.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Anyone else got opinions on what is and isn't 'safe'?

The Earl

To be safe, the activity shouldn't endanger *you* either, nor your property. punching walls and other things is a good way to get yourself hurt and is just a way of turning your agression back on yourself.

Punching a bag, I think would be better than boxing. Probably not a good idea to involve other people when taking out anger. I am a thrower myself. So in my case, throwing rocks at trees or something would probably be healhy than throwing dishes at the wall or silverwear threw windows.

If you have a need for things to break* then a punching bad wouldn't work. Maybe snapping twigs or working on working on a project that requires the use of a sledgehammer, or tearing up paper.

This has actually given me a lot to think about.

 

[NoJo]

Re: Re: Aggression and violence

Yes. Hitting inantimate objects is dangerous, scary, violent, destructive, intimidating, and threatening. The hitter is out of control but has fooled himself into thinking he is in control because he doesn't hit a person- but agression has a way of escalating. It doesn't set a good example for the children either. I find it abusive, and it can be manipulative as well. (I'm mad- now I'm hurt- it's all your fault for pissing me off)

I think hitters should find themselves some anger managent help (books therapy or whatever) and learn to deal with there emotions in a more constructive way. I don't buy into the idea that it's ok as long as you don't hit a person, that is just the ego trying to justify itself.

That is my honest and unvarnished oppinion, and I say it out of love. If I found out a man couldn't control his temper eally on in the game- I'd get out before I was even in.

Good post, S&P. I couldn't agree more. It also sounds like you know whereof you speak.

When I was in a less balanced state than now, and would be inclined to hit something, I had to treat it very seriously. My partner was also "hot-tempered" -- putting it nicely, and more than once struck at me. As I'm twice her size, retaliation would have been serious, to say the least. Any exhibition of sudden violence at home, even if not directed at your partner, is a serious warning that you're about to fuck up your home life, maybe irreparably.

I spent over a year away from my family (with arranged visits only).

From the day I moved out, I started to chill out. I spent some time in therapy, where I learned the causes, both immediate and further back in my history, of my anger. It helped considerably.

In order to keep my stress level down, I changed my job (for a much worse paid one), and a lot of other things in my lifestyle. Like drug addiction or alcoholism, you need to be continually vigilant in order not to go back to the old ways.

 

[NoJo]

I wouldn't say I was violent. Violent to me suggests reacting on other people or around them. Aggressive isn't right either, cause that has undertones of pushing it onto someone else. I'd say that I have aggression.

When I'm under huge amounts of stress (ie coursework) or emotional tension (ie right now), I will hit things. I always know why I've hit something. I'd only really get worried if I started hitting things for no reason. Let's face it, I think LISP and PHP would be enough to get Gandhi a little frustrated.

I like the idea of the finding an activity and would sincerely recommend it to anyone else with aggression. I play and train for rugby 3 times a week and karate once a week (when I have time for the latter that is). Just out of interest, wherebouts do you live so that wood-chopping is a viable activity?

Anyone else got opinions on what is and isn't 'safe'?

The Earl

LOL about the PHP and LISP! (actually I do that kind of thing to relax ).

I'm afraid I would say you were violent; and that you must be aware that something's wrong; otherwise you probably wouldn't have posted. Violence is very rarely necessary in modern life. If you feel violent, unless you live in a gang zone or something, you're showing an inappropriate reaction. After all, how can a teeny weeny EVAL(CONS(HEAD(HEAD(PLUS(...))))) hurt you?

(Come to think of it -- you're right -- I need to hit something now.)

 

[sweetnpetite]

This has nothing to do with punching walls.

Yes, it CAN be a manipulative and threatening behavior, when done in the context of a heated fight, to scare the other person. But it can also be a way of releasing unbearable tension when alone, with no one watching. (Like myself and, I think, Earl.)

I have no tendency toward violence. I control my temper very well. I don't like it when I kick walls, (Or dent my filing cabinet so the drawers won't close) but I do it sometimes, and that doesn't mean I'm a potential abuser, and neither is Earl.

What I am trying to say is not that you are a potential abuser (anybody with at least one limb has the *potential to physically abuse IMO) but that because* future* abusers behave similerly to some future non-abusers, and someone outside of your own head can never know your thoughts, the perception of fear can be damaging to a relationsip as well.

The fact that it he does it alone is definatly a plus. The fact that he damages his property is a negative. I would not want to get serious with someone who did that. The fact that you don't like it when you do these things also shows (to me) that it's a problem, I think it has a bearing on your self image.

I'm not perfect either, I kick walls and throw things and slam cupboards and all of that- but I think if you have a habit that is destructive and it's something you don't like about yourself, the best course of action-- for your own personal health-- is to try to change it. Willingness to change is also a healthy trait.

With all the people in the world to date- I'd prefer to pick one who doesn't punch walls-- even in private-- to one who does. I'm not saying that person is a bad person, or that no one would date or love them. But I do think it's a change worth making. Guys who are into self improvement are sexy

 

[sweetnpetite]

I'm afraid I would say you were violent; and that you must be aware that something's wrong; otherwise you probably wouldn't have posted. Violence is very rarely necessary in modern life. If you feel violent, unless you live in a gang zone or something, you're showing an inappropriate reaction.

Now it's my turn to agree with you. I do think that if it bothers (or worries) Earl enough to ask about it, its an indication that maybe he should make some changes.

Although the behavior is defendable it's not commendable. You have a lot to gain by replacing it, by growing and learning new behaviors. You'll be a better person and you'll be better off and you'll feel beter about yourself.

And I think Earl is a pretty damn great person as it is. If he'd just stop punching things he'd be damn near perfect!

 

[carsonshepherd]

With all the people in the world to date- I'd prefer to pick one who doesn't punch walls-- even in private-- to one who does. I'm not saying that person is a bad person, or that no one would date or love them. But I do think it's a change worth making. Guys who are into self improvement are sexy

Well, good luck finding one. We've ALL got a dark side. It's just how well we control it and understand it.

I did make a change. I don't punch walls - it hurts! - I prefer kicking things; and that's an improvement over the way my temper used to be before I learned to control it. I'm always embarrassed because, to me, it's childish, just the grown-up equivalent of throwing yourself on the floor kicking and screaming.

 

[carsonshepherd]

Now it's my turn to agree with you. I do think that if it bothers (or worries) Earl enough to ask about it, its an indication that maybe he should make some changes.

Although the behavior is defendable it's not commendable. You have a lot to gain by replacing it, by growing and learning new behaviors. You'll be a better person and you'll be better off and you'll feel beter about yourself.

And I think Earl is a pretty damn great person as it is. If he'd just stop punching things he'd be damn near perfect!

That isn't fair. He punches a punching bag! that's what they are for! The fist through the wall, he admits was done out of extreme pain and frustration.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Re: Re: Re: Aggression and violence

Like drug addiction or alcoholism, you need to be continually vigilant in order not to go back to the old ways.

How trenchant of you, Sub Joe. I think you quite right.

The fist through the wall, he admits was done out of extreme pain and frustration.

Yes, and my friend's ex had exactly the same reason for punching her. Extreme pain and frustration. That, I think, is what makes people nervous. Attacking things is a violation of social norms. Attacking things in a rage tells them "when angry, this person is willing to transgress the normal boundaries of behavior in a violent fashion." Not knowing your absolute limits - indeed, not knowing if you have absolulte limits, as you may not know yourself - they are understandably nervous about the potential for this transgression to escalate.

It's not a matter, in my point of view, of basic personal trust. Carson, whom I reverence and adore, I would quite entirely trust to do me no harm of any sort, regardless of his own potential benefit - in a calm moment. But people who are angry are not quite themselves, and those who are lashing out are more clearly and demonstrably not themselves. That opens the door to all sorts of unsettling possibilities.

Shanglan

 

[carsonshepherd]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Aggression and violence

But people who are angry are not quite themselves, and those who are lashing out are more clearly and demonstrably not themselves. That opens the door to all sorts of unsettling possibilities.

Shanglan

Which I exactly why I don't let myself get to that point. I don't want to find out what I'm capable of. WHen I get angry, I just shut it off or walk away.

 

[cantdog]

Sorry, Earl, I was at work and whatnot. I think the difference

So you'd say the difference depends on spontaneity or pre-planned ritual? Or is the public/private thing that makes hte difference.

Very curious about this now.

would be the spontaneity/discipline thing. If you don't do that shit spontaneously, but control it and put it someplace in a deliberate way, then it's not threatening. It could even be reassuring. There's a handle on it, is the difference. Just to clarify.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Aggression and violence

Good post, S&P. I couldn't agree more. It also sounds like you know whereof you speak.

When I was in a less balanced state than now, and would be inclined to hit something, I had to treat it very seriously. My partner was also "hot-tempered" -- putting it nicely, and more than once struck at me. As I'm twice her size, retaliation would have been serious, to say the least. Any exhibition of sudden violence at home, even if not directed at your partner, is a serious warning that you're about to fuck up your home life, maybe irreparably.

I spent over a year away from my family (with arranged visits only).

From the day I moved out, I started to chill out. I spent some time in therapy, where I learned the causes, both immediate and further back in my history, of my anger. It helped considerably.

In order to keep my stress level down, I changed my job (for a much worse paid one), and a lot of other things in my lifestyle. Like drug addiction or alcoholism, you need to be continually vigilant in order not to go back to the old ways.

This might sound crass, but it isn't meant to. I admire you for doing that, Joe. Couldn't have been an easy thing to face up to and deal with.

Lou

 

[sweetnpetite]

That isn't fair. He punches a punching bag! that's what they are for! The fist through the wall, he admits was done out of extreme pain and frustration.

I guess I misread him, because I thought he said he hit the wall more than once.

Punching a punching bag is ok. I really meant the last part to be lighthearted. I think that Earl is great and doubt that I would ever be afraid of him- from what I know online.

I know we all have a dark side, but some people are scarier than others. When considering who to date, we can't always be fair and give everyone the benefit of the doubt, we have to watch out for ourselves and sometimes we make unfair judgements.

I would use an entirely different standard on someone as a friend than as someone to date. I won't take a chance of being in a violent relationship, that's the kind of thing were if there is doubt in the begining it is far better to cut and run before you get too involved than hoping for the best and getting entangled in something questionable. With dates, early warning signs should be heeded. That is my belief.

If I had been friends with him for a long time, and I knew him well, and it was but a small part of his personality that would be different as well. But if it were one of the first things I learned about him, it would not bode well.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I was the abuser in a relationship, twice before. Finding other outlets for aggression and violence like inaminate objects or sports (in my case I took up boxing), can help a LOT.

 

[English Lady]

I was the abuser in a relationship, twice before. Finding other outlets for aggression and violence like inaminate objects or sports (in my case I took up boxing), can help a LOT.

I think that kinda reads like good common sense. take it out in away that doesn't hurt anyone.

I can see where some people are going here about not being with a person whois even a teensy bit agresive...but are there many people like thatin the world?

And are we talking just physically agresive or verbally agressive too? is verbal agression as threatening as physical agression?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Being with someone who can't control their temper is kind of like being with someone who can't control their bowels. It might not be dangerous, but it's definitely embarrassing.

When I was growing up, we used to do a lot of wall and window punching, especially when I was a college freshman. Though we would never admit it, we basically thought it made us look intimidating and macho. It doesn't. Basically, it makes you look infantile.

Here's what we finally did: We had a big bowl that we all used to put our beercaps in. When someone wanted to go macho and punch something (and it seemed like it was always over a girl), they were encouraged to punch their fists into the bowl full of bottle caps. That cures of your urge to punch things pretty quickly.

I mean, if you want to be macho, be macho.

---dr.M.

 

[TheEarl]

My God! This can's got worms in it! Worms I tell you!

Just to straighten things out. I have hit walls, cupboards, slammed doors. It's not a regular occurence, not an every-day, nor an every-week, nor an every month thing. On the rare occasions that I do punch at something, 99% of the time, I pull the punch to just a tap. I have only twice done any damage, once kicking a hole in the drywall and once bruising my knuckle, both in recent weeks and the reasons for them are fairly self-evident to anyone who's read my melancholy posts recently. I think some people are under the impression that it's something I've done on a regular basis. The original post was a cry for discussion rather than a cry for help and I certainly think I've got that!

I personally don't consider myself to be violent - I do not think two heavy strikes counts as a habit. Let's face it, if I was violent, then I would've taken it out on an opposition rugby player by now - I get some frightful provocation (the best being a match where I sprained my ankle badly, came back on the field after treatment and got kicked twice there by my opposite number). I pride myself that I've never reacted, despite having been punched in the face.

However, I have to disagree with whoever said that aggression wasn't necessary in modern society. Men are aggressive, it is in our genetic makeup and in our hormones; we are designed this way be evolution to be better hunters. Prehistoric men who didn't enjoy hunting things didn't eat and didn't breed - it is in every man's nature and every man's blood. The thing that takes us above our hormones are our morals, our codas of being. They are the ultimate fix on our behaviour.

I play rugby, which is a contact sport. I use a punching bag and I do karate. All of these are good solid ways of expending aggression and by God I do - my favourite part of a rugby game is when I make a sweet tackle on my opponent. I'm not doing it in an attempt to injure him; I'm doing it because I love the feeling of knowing that in that challenge I was superior. It is tapping into the prehistoric, when men had to fight to prove their worth. I'm doing it by modern rules and without intent to injure, but the challenge is the same. However in kumite (sparring) in karate, also a challenge, also the aim being to prove your superiority over your opponent, I cannot strike effectively at a woman. It is a block, a physical impediment. Any rules of the contest are overruled by the simple truths of my moral code.

I have the ability and the strength as Elsie pointed out earlier, to knock down most women and a lot of men. I could do a lot of things using a physical advantage. The reason why I don't is not that I'm scared of consequences, it is simply because I can't. Physically can't. It's hard limits and soft limits - people who use their aggression to step past their limits as someone suggested (from grab, to push, to hit, to bruise, to hospitalise) is going past their soft limits. These are limits which can be exceeded because of stress and frustration and anger. Hard limits are inviolate - passing them is destruction of self and nothing less than mental incapability can make a person cross them. Gauche's friend is an example of hard limits.

To say that anybody who takes their anger out on a punchbag is a step closer to violence than a person who doesn't is a generalisation to my mind. A person may go clay-pigeon shooting to release tension. It doesn't bring him any closer to turning a shot-gun on his wife.

Interesting opinions here though.

And and Joe?

After all, how can a teeny weeny EVAL(CONS(HEAD(HEAD(PLUS(...))))) hurt you?

Don't make me code. You wouldn't like me when I'm coding.

The Earl

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Although they're often linked, aggression is not the same thing as violence at all. You can be aggressive without being violent. You can be violent without being especially aggressive. Two entirely different things.

And whether you think of yourself as violent or not isn't the problem. The problem is how other people see you. People who exhibit violence are out of control in that aspect of their lives, and witnessing any kind of loss of control is very upsetting and alarming to other people. That shouldn't be hard to understand.

Imagine meeting some guy for the first time and seeing him turn around and slam his fist into a wall. Is this a guy you want to hang around with? Even if he's perfectly sweet and wonderful the rest of the time. Is this someone you'd recommend to a girl as a date?

It's all about control. We expect adults to be in control of themselves, and a person who isn't in control has a problem.

---dr.M.

 

[carsonshepherd]

Being with someone who can't control their temper is kind of like being with someone who can't control their bowels. It might not be dangerous, but it's definitely embarrassing.

It doesn't. Basically, it makes you look infantile.



---dr.M.

Once again you've got it in twenty words or less.

When my BF is blathering on (and sometimes he'll kick something but it's more childish and annoying than threatening, because I'm bigger than he is) I call it "diarrhea of the mouth."

It's all about control. We expect adults to be in control of themselves, and a person who isn't in control has a problem.

Wise as Yoda, you are.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Although they're often linked, aggression is not the same thing as violence at all. You can be aggressive without being violent. You can be violent without being especially aggressive. Two entirely different things.

And whether you think of yourself as violent or not isn't the problem. The problem is how other people see you. People who exhibit violence are out of control in that aspect of their lives, and witnessing any kind of loss of control is very upsetting and alarming to other people. That shouldn't be hard to understand.

Imagine meeting some guy for the first time and seeing him turn around and slam his fist into a wall. Is this a guy you want to hang around with? Even if he's perfectly sweet and wonderful the rest of the time. Is this someone you'd recommend to a girl as a date?

It's all about control. When you're playing rugby or doing karate or even punching that bag, you're under control. You don't start biting the guy you've just tackled, and you don't start flailing and cursing at the punching bag. It's all done under strict control. That's the joy of sports: aggression and violence chanelled through skill into something beautiful.

We expect adults to be in control of themselves, and a person who isn't in control has a problem. It's very distressing to see, and it frightens and upsets most people.

---dr.M.

 

[TheEarl]

Although they're often linked, aggression is not the same thing as violence at all. You can be aggressive without being violent. You can be violent without being especially aggressive. Two entirely different things.

And whether you think of yourself as violent or not isn't the problem. The problem is how other people see you. People who exhibit violence are out of control in that aspect of their lives, and witnessing any kind of loss of control is very upsetting and alarming to other people. That shouldn't be hard to understand.

Imagine meeting some guy for the first time and seeing him turn around and slam his fist into a wall. Is this a guy you want to hang around with? Even if he's perfectly sweet and wonderful the rest of the time. Is this someone you'd recommend to a girl as a date?

It's all about control. When you're playing rugby or doing karate or even punching that bag, you're under control. You don't start biting the guy you've just tackled, and you don't start flailing and cursing at the punching bag. It's all done under strict control. That's the joy of sports: aggression and violence chanelled through skill into something beautiful.

We expect adults to be in control of themselves, and a person who isn't in control has a problem. It's very distressing to see, and it frightens and upsets most people.

---dr.M.

I think DrM's turning into Weird Harold. Succinct, yet completely correct.

The Earl

 

[Weird Harold]

I think hitters should find themselves some anger managent help (books therapy or whatever) and learn to deal with there emotions in a more constructive way. I don't buy into the idea that it's ok as long as you don't hit a person, that is just the ego trying to justify itself..

As someone who is frightened to death of his own temper, and thus very familiar with "anger management issues," I think "hitting" IS a method of anger management.

I've long since grown out of hitting things indiscriminantly -- too many things hurt you when you hit them instead of being hurt.

Over the years, I've gotten to the point where it takes a great deal to bring me to the point where I must hit/destroy something but the potential is still there at all times.

My prefered method of releasing the need to hit/destroy is to go engage in some target practice with a high-powered hunting rifle and gallon milk jugs filled with water -- sometimes with a picture of the object of my anger/frustrations attached.

It's a process known as sublimation -- redirecting the anger to something "safe" and letting it out so it doesn't poison me.

99.9999% of people who know me would be very surprised to know I have anger managemant issues or even that I have a temper. The bully I nearly killed in grade school when I was finally pushed to the braking point -- and before I even knew I HAD a breaking point -- certainly didn't believe I had a temper, or even a backbone.

I think every person has a breaking point where the best of anger-managment techniques aren't sufficient. Without the release of occasionally destroying innocent milk jugs in a spectacular manner, my breaking point would be much closer to the surface and much more evident. Without the occasional release and, more importantly, knowing when I need that kind of release well short of my breaking point, I know I would be a VERY dangerous person to be around.

WITH the self-knowledge I've gained over the years and a way to release the anger and aggression, I'm a very safe person to be around and someone many people point out as an example of a calmness and rationality. But only because I've gotten very good at hiding the monster within and redirecting him into "safe" and "acceptable" behavior.

Because I occasionally give in to the need to hit and/or destroy things I don't have to worry (as much) about something setting me off unexpectedly. It's people who don't express their feelings who are most dangerous, IMHO. Emotional people tend to display some warning signs before they direct their aggression and/or anger at other people; the quiet types just explode without warning when pushed just the right way.

 

[minsue]

I think that the comments on whether violence is controlled or uncontrolled are significant and valid.

Well put. I find spontaneous and uncontrolled violence unnerving, too, though I'd never really given any thought to the difference.

While I'm certainly not proud of the times I've hit inanimate objects, I can say with all honesty that it was never spontaneous. (Which somehow makes it sadder, to me, but that's a personal issue) It was always controlled for the simple fact that my older brother has a metal plate and two pins in his hand from punching a door. (Who knew that a bar would fill a hollow-core door with concrete? ) The times when I've let my frustration get the better of me and hit a wall or door, I've always been very careful to NOT hit it at full force. I saw his hand before they put it back together again and I like my knuckles right where they are, thank you very much.

 

[carsonshepherd]

Well put. I find spontaneous and uncontrolled violence unnerving, too, though I'd never really given any thought to the difference.

While I'm certainly not proud of the times I've hit inanimate objects, I can say with all honesty that it was never spontaneous. (Which somehow makes it sadder, to me, but that's a personal issue) It was always controlled for the simple fact that my older brother has a metal plate and two pins in his hand from punching a door. (Who knew that a bar would fill a hollow-core door with concrete? ) The times when I've let my frustration get the better of me and hit a wall or door, I've always been very careful to NOT hit it at full force. I saw his hand before they put it back together again and I like my knuckles right where they are, thank you very much.

Eek! I'm a kicker, not a puncher - hurts less