Aftercare Vs Oh Shut The Fuck Up

[rosco rathbone]

The assassin said something about favorite sounds being cooing to a snuffling subbie after a good whipping.

We've all done it...you beat someone and then you hold them and cuddle with them and it can be a lot of fun. "Aftercare" they call it. And it is a good thing.

However, I was wondering if any of you doms out there are ever moved by one my frequent impulses; which is to say "Quit your damn snivelling, woman". You might call this the aftercare version of the shut up and take it school.

Now naturally; too much of this would not be good; but every once in a while me thinks it does a sub good.

 

[WriterDom]

I've had someone break down and it wasn't a feel good thing for me. Maybe I have too much heart. If you did treat something like that, my feeling is that she would pack up and leave. Maybe a sub can give some insight.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Yes there are times when "shut the fuck up" is the best after care in the world. Knowing Your property is vital to knowing when continuing the hard treatment holds more value than hugs and soft words.

I am a hard nose. Sometimes I am absolutely and unequivically going to turn My back after a scene. No apologies and no guilt. Occassionally a scene that has been particularly deep and fullfilling can enrage Me in a good way. I have no desire to dilute My mood by turning off My own emotions and bringing My Domme space down to cuddle mode.

I have yet to find any permanent harm done to My toys when the after care is delayed for many many hours. In fact often I have found an even deeper submission over takes them after the tears and moans have subsided.

 

[Queen Bee]

Sometimes weeping and sniveling are in danger of gaining a hysterical edge. Those times call for a "Shut the fuck up."

 

[Kajira Callista]

This is going to sound weird, its a hard thing to explain. Aftercare is something that is most of the time a very uncomfortable thing for me. Unless you have tapped into something really really scary to me, i sort of feel like its only being done because the other person thinks they should. May be very "unsubmissive" of me but i prefer putting my pieces back together alone... and if i cant get them to fit right, and you knew me, you would know.

 

[Shadowsdream]

This is going to sound weird, its a hard thing to explain. Aftercare is something that is most of the time a very uncomfortable thing for me. Unless you have tapped into something really really scary to me, i sort of feel like its only being done because the other person thinks they should. May be very "unsubmissive" of me but i prefer putting my pieces back together alone... and if i cant get them to fit right, and you knew me, you would know.

I know several submissives that feel the same as you do on this subject. They put the pieces together on their own and come back to Me content and ready to sit at My feet quietly.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I know several submissives that feel the same as you do on this subject. They put the pieces together on their own and come back to Me content and ready to sit at My feet quietly.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

I've had someone break down and it wasn't a feel good thing for me. Maybe I have too much heart. If you did treat something like that, my feeling is that she would pack up and leave. Maybe a sub can give some insight.

Since somebody asked, and since Rosco is always free to tell me to Shut the Fuck Up, as he is wont to do, in one way or another ... that would be my first point. That I think someone who would be with Rosco, would expect that and would therefore, to answer WriterDom, be unlikely to leave due to such. And if she whined about it frequently when between scenes, I've a feeling the relationship would be shortterm. (Unless she was really hot, in which case RR would walk around PO'ed all the time but things would last a little longer. )
My sense, RR, is that the urge to say that might mean the scene is not finished for you? Have you tried suggesting that to said sub? A smiling threat of sorts? Yeah, she might fall apart worse, in which case you could still give the ultimatum -- perhaps when you're off-scene? -- but she might just give you this and scoot away giggling. (Not that you were looking for suggestions.)

Shadowsdream said: I have yet to find any permanent harm done to My toys when the after care is delayed for many many hours.

But RR, did I misunderstand? I took you to mean there wouldn't be any after care forthcoming, even hours later.

In my situation, even if my dh were willing to read up on this stuff and therefore knew to expect neediness, he would probably not recognize such a need in me for aftercare, which I have felt, and -- not sure what I'm trying to say here but it seems relevant -- on the one hand I know it's because he trusts me as an adult to take care of myself and get myself back together, or to recognize and tell him what I need, later, and look for and recognize when he's ready to return -- and on the other, it sometimes makes me feel deeply lonely, despite knowing how much he loves me.
I get my aftercare from listening to him sing happily in the shower afterwards.

 

[Netzach]

I like to give my subs the chance to be dignified and self sufficient. I feel like the cuddly wuddly nature of aftercare is often overempahsized. To me, really caring can be the phone call the next day to find out how everything settled.

If I want to cuddle M I cuddle him. If I want to smack him up a bit I do that. I've only fucked up once, really, that I know of, in terms of not being present when he was feeling vulnerable, and we talked about it afterwards rationally, no snivelling freaking out or anything.

I simply don't care to play with people who strike me as exceptionally needy, people who are using me to dredge up demons, or people who cry if I so much as look at them wrong. Yuk. And I know people whose scenes ALWAYS end in some kind of drama or meltdown, Tops so incredibly well manipulated by their bottoms that they'll run a mile and a half to go buy tissues for her to cry in at midnight. No thanks.

I hate when people touch me when I cry unless I have a really really critical relationship to them. It's like, ugh, go away.

There's a lot of "instant intimacy" in the community, lots of hugs and gropes and things, and it's always annoyed me. Just because YOU didn't get hugged enough by your mom doesn't mean I feel like hugging.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

I like to give my subs the chance to be dignified and self sufficient. I feel like the cuddly wuddly nature of aftercare is often overempahsized. To me, really caring can be the phone call the next day to find out how everything settled.

If I want to cuddle M I cuddle him. If I want to smack him up a bit I do that. I've only fucked up once, really, that I know of, in terms of not being present when he was feeling vulnerable, and we talked about it afterwards rationally, no snivelling freaking out or anything.

I simply don't care to play with people who strike me as exceptionally needy, people who are using me to dredge up demons, or people who cry if I so much as look at them wrong. Yuk. And I know people whose scenes ALWAYS end in some kind of drama or meltdown, Tops so incredibly well manipulated by their bottoms that they'll run a mile and a half to go buy tissues for her to cry in at midnight. No thanks.

I hate when people touch me when I cry unless I have a really really critical relationship to them. It's like, ugh, go away.

There's a lot of "instant intimacy" in the community, lots of hugs and gropes and things, and it's always annoyed me. Just because YOU didn't get hugged enough by your mom doesn't mean I feel like hugging.

There is That, yes. (Subs that are more needy than that particular dom would wish, Drama queens, and those who enjoy manipulating.) But I'm not going to cry for the poor manipulated doms, either. They are either getting some need met through responding to needy subs in this way, or need to suck it up and deal or get out, themselves.

Maybe they are on the wrong end of the stick? For instance, the idea of 'being used to dredge up someone's demons' appeals to me. Hell, being used appeals to me. (But only by one I choose. Very strong walls otherwise.)

Sounds like, based on your first line and second to last paragraphs, that you deal with subs the way you would like to be dealt with. It does help to find someone like oneself to aid in understanding and ease of fit.

Sounds, too, like vulnerability and access to one's insides -- yours or theirs -- is uncomfortable for you?

Community instant intimacy can be ick. That's the second 'yes' for me, here. There is something about, especially random, demands for strokes, that smacks of mild non-consent to me. And yet, with hard limits in place. Not supposed to acknowledge that sometimes that is what those types of demands can be. It feels like while there is a hard limit that you then keep your sexuality to yourself, you also have a hard limit on you not to notice if they expose theirs, iykwim. (Don't you ever get the urge when hearing a particularly over-exposing public confession from someone, that does seem to be somewhat under conscious control, to say, 'my, Take it off, take it All off, baby!' or something of that nature? (Jerry, Jerry!))

But some of this can be like 'how close do you stand to someone when you talk'? Kind of cultural, or personal, taste. (Had a conversation once with my brother when I realized we'd been walking around the room, me forwards and him backwards, while calmly talking. Made kind of a funny pic as he is so much taller, to have made him back away all the way around a room just by unconsciously getting into his personal space, before I noticed.)

 

[SubmissiveDove5]

I don't want to sound weak, but I must put my two cents here!

I couldn't handle my Master ignoring me after a scene. If he ever tells me to shut the fuck up after scening, I will be extremely hurt, to the point of having a breakdown, and will pack my bags and leave. I am very sensative, so I certainly don't need him leaving me alone. I'm disabled, so I realize my needs are different, but Master understands my psychie. I don't know if it's different between slaves and subs, but I am not a slave. Another thing is that my rrelationship with Master is more than just for the sex. It is both physical and emotional, and he has mentioned marriage for the future. In my opinion, the sort of relationship mentioned in this thread would probably be better for someone who had a relationship outside of bdsm either with a husband or significent other.

I probably shouldn't have said anything. I don't want to make anyone mad, but I had to speak. I guess because the whole idea of being used for just pleasure really bothers me. I guess that's just me though.

I hope I didn't offend anybody.

 

[Netzach]

My rationale is that if I have a close enough and loving enough relationship with someone, my disinterest in babying them the way they want when they most WANT it should not send them packing for their mom's. That is, if they've insisted to me that they're submissive. That means not always getting what you want.

Everyone's needs will vary and I'm not trashing yours, just offering my perspective, and maintaining that it's got nothing to do with depth of relationship.

 

[Netzach]

There is That, yes. (Subs that are more needy than that particular dom would wish, Drama queens, and those who enjoy manipulating.) But I'm not going to cry for the poor manipulated doms, either. They are either getting some need met through responding to needy subs in this way, or need to suck it up and deal or get out, themselves.

Very true! It's just not really my scene. I'm irascible these days, I've dealt with too many people who profess an interest in submission and don't have one single inclination to do anything they don't like. Tough shit, I'm beginning to think.


Maybe they are on the wrong end of the stick? For instance, the idea of 'being used to dredge up someone's demons' appeals to me. Hell, being used appeals to me. (But only by one I choose. Very strong walls otherwise.)


I wouldn't go that far. A lot of people need to feel like they are nurturing and protecting to emphasize a sense of helplessness or consistency, or whatever else. I was never that into the "helpless" aspect of it all, anyway.


Sounds like, based on your first line and second to last paragraphs, that you deal with subs the way you would like to be dealt with. It does help to find someone like oneself to aid in understanding and ease of fit.

Sounds, too, like vulnerability and access to one's insides -- yours or theirs -- is uncomfortable for you?

When it isn't something I initiate and when it's someone I don't feel the same way about, yes. It's like the unsolicited "I love you" from someone you just fucked, when you don't.


Community instant intimacy can be ick. That's the second 'yes' for me, here. There is something about, especially random, demands for strokes, that smacks of mild non-consent to me. And yet, with hard limits in place. Not supposed to acknowledge that sometimes that is what those types of demands can be. It feels like while there is a hard limit that you then keep your sexuality to yourself, you also have a hard limit on you not to notice if they expose theirs, iykwim. (Don't you ever get the urge when hearing a particularly over-exposing public confession from someone, that does seem to be somewhat under conscious control, to say, 'my, Take it off, take it All off, baby!' or something of that nature? (Jerry, Jerry!))


Well, yeah, sometimes. Who wouldn't?


But some of this can be like 'how close do you stand to someone when you talk'? Kind of cultural, or personal, taste. (Had a conversation once with my brother when I realized we'd been walking around the room, me forwards and him backwards, while calmly talking. Made kind of a funny pic as he is so much taller, to have made him back away all the way around a room just by unconsciously getting into his personal space, before I noticed.)

I think it's a taste thing and how I am, I'm not a terribly distant person, but I'm not into the instant friends thing, I really feel that I clock in somewhere in the middle.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

N: Very true! It's just not really my scene. I'm irascible these days, I've dealt with too many people who profess an interest in submission and don't have one single inclination to do anything they don't like. Tough shit, I'm beginning to think.

This sounds like a good, Dommely attitude to take, and Bully for you, I say! Very clean, straightforward and with a certain sitback ease to it.

(Using color to try to make this more readable. will see I guess.)

N: I wouldn't go that far. A lot of people need to feel like they are nurturing and protecting to emphasize a sense of helplessness or consistency, or whatever else. I was never that into the "helpless" aspect of it all, anyway.

PS: Sounds, too, like vulnerability and access to one's insides -- yours or theirs -- is uncomfortable for you?

When it isn't something I initiate and when it's someone I don't feel the same way about, yes. It's like the unsolicited "I love you" from someone you just fucked, when you don't.

These last two quotes sound like my dh, and give me some clues, I think. He does expect me to be an adult, more than I am. And darned it if I didn't pick him partly based on that, or that was one of the things that attracted me. It wasn't a stretch for him to deal as an equal. He didn't need me to be an ignorant helpless baby or an intelligent pet talking dog, like some. (there ain't a smilie on the board to cover my expression at this one. -- something like a dubious pursed lip, raised eyebrow smile?)

One of the points of integrity I've especially admired about him is that he never told someone he loved them, when he didnt. Lost more than one relationship that way.
So I Knew how he felt about me, was really aimed at me, not say, just wanting somebody.
I, on the other hand, recall telling someone, reluctantly, i love you, back, excusing it by telling myself that since I didn't really know what love was, this Might be love, I liked him well enough, maybe i'd get there later, and it would be a Nice Polite thing to say, and oh it made me wince, but I wanted to be in that relationship with a nice guy. My best excuse being that I was 19, not completely convinced that I should trust my feelings, etc. Not totally innocent. Was probably trying out a bit of manipulation, too. Trying something new.

Guess I've gotten off track from Aftercare Vs... Next post.
Answer will probably be yes, most have felt that way, and 'it depends' when it comes to what reaction. Responding to anyone's neediness, wants or needs, when you're not in the space for it, if you don't mind a bit of expansion -- asks a further question: to give this 'honest' response, what you are really feeling at the moment, is such honesty good for the other person, or not? Depends on the others thickness of skin, your relationship, etc. COULD be good for a sub to be sometimes responded to with Tough Love aftercare.

besides depending on the subs personality, the relationship and such, doesn't it also depend on what you are trying to foster? Take your medicine, it's good for you, etc (meaning I don't wanna, so I'm not gonna, no matter what) can be either a copout for a lazy dom, or a good way to sort the wheat from the chaff, or whatever.

Might help to get an example rather than a hypothetical. Maybe you need to find tougher wenches?

 

[SubmissiveDove5]

Previous message more thought out

I am going to try again to express my thoughts on this subject. I realize that I sounded like a spoiled brat in my last post. I'm really not that much of a spoiled brat, it's just that I get scared of this lifestyle sometimes. So here I go again with my thoughts:

My reaction to being ignored after an emotional/painful scene would all depend on how I was told that I wasn't getting after care. If Master literally told me to "shut the fuck up" it would make me feel worthless, thus I would be even more upset. However, if he told me that I didn't deserve it in a controlled voice, I would probably ask why, but I would accept it. Once, Master and I were having a phone fantasy, and because of my lack of knowledge on the topic at hand, he denied me what I wanted to fantasize about. I know it's not the same as denying someone who's having a tantrum, but it's the only example I have as of yet. I guess my point is that I may be a sub, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be respected, and I demand respect!

 

[Mr Blonde]

Some people are only thinking the fluffy-soft version of aftercare. It can be simple conversation or giving some space for the submissive to recover. Aftercare is about paying attention to what is happening and having decent perceptive skills to make the right choice.

In my relationships, nearly all "play" happens at night in privacy of bedroom and is the last thing before sleep. We sleep in the nude because that is my preference. Sometimes we can play on Saturday morning but what if we have an exhausting afternoon of normal activities? This is the real world.

I can tell a submissive to "quit snivelling" or "stop that crying" towards the end of a scene, but when the scene is over it is time for aftercare to get back on an even keel so we can go to bed. Telling someone to "shut the fuck up" gets my blood pumping, too. At that point I am trying to unwind so I can get a restful night's sleep. I only get 4-5 hours of shuteye a night as it is!

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Re: Previous message more thought out

I am going to try again to express my thoughts on this subject. I realize that I sounded like a spoiled brat in my last post. I'm really not that much of a spoiled brat, it's just that I get scared of this lifestyle sometimes.

Why a brat? Why not just a sub who might not be a match for all doms? And who would? But then I AM a brat, so don't listen to me!

My reaction to being ignored after an emotional/painful scene would all depend on how I was told that I wasn't getting after care. If Master literally told me to "shut the fuck up" it would make me feel worthless, thus I would be even more upset.

Why not assume that something was going on with Him, and that he needed a bit of distance or dom aftercare himself?

However, if he told me that I didn't deserve it in a controlled voice, I would probably ask why, but I would accept it.

Things like tone of voice make all the difference, don't they? I'd probably be more upset if my dh told me in those terms, too. That would be very unlike him, so I'd be very confused. Lots of other ways to say it and I'd wonder why That way. Would ask later if he could't be more matter-of-fact next time. Just say, 'No.'

I guess my point is that I may be a sub, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be respected, and I demand respect!

MachoSub Doves of the World Unite! (But watch out for cats -- could lead you in the wrong direction.)

 

[Phoenix Stone]

I can tell a submissive to "quit snivelling" or "stop that crying" towards the end of a scene, but when the scene is over it is time for aftercare to get back on an even keel so we can go to bed. Telling someone to "shut the fuck up" gets my blood pumping, too. At that point I am trying to unwind so I can get a restful night's sleep.

Yes, RR what about this? Wouldn't it get you, or keep you, riled up? Maybe not done yet? Maybe just growl in her direction, or tell her before that there'll be no aftercare, or keep it simple like Mr. B?

(How do you survive, anyway, Mr.B. Catnaps? I like your new AV -- 'kitty got a gun,' no more Mr. Nice Kitty, Kitty-Went-A-Huntin'. My Cat would even like your AV, and he's pretty picky. If they had thumbs, they'd rule the world.)

 

[SubmissiveDove5]

Thanks Phoenixstone, that made me feel much better. For a while, I thought I was alone in my thoughts.

If Master ever needed after-care, whether it be by physical need or otherwise, I would give it to him. I think after care and support are two different things (not really sure), but I have always supported him with whatever it was he wanted to do.

Master has many pet names for me, little girl, my pet, but the one I like the most is babygirl. Maybe it's just because I need to be babied. I don't know. I don't know if this will change later down the road, but he's never called me his slut or his whore. I'm greatful for that because I don't think I could handle that. I knowDS in the Dom's mind is getting what he wants through control, but in my case, I want to give him what he wants and needs. Maybe I'm thinking differently, but that defines love in my mind. I don't think such titles as slut and whorre would be applicable.

Maybe I went a little off the topic. Oh well, I guess I made a few extra points,

 

[seXieleXie]

quite simply, i think aftercare is part of a dom's responsiblity to his/her sub. if the sub doesn't want/need a lot of cuddling, that obviously fine, but i'm the type who needs some soothing after an intense encounter. i try not to over do it one the snivling but telling me to shut the fuck up isn't going to help anyone at that point.

 

[BrightFlower]

This is going to sound weird, its a hard thing to explain. Aftercare is something that is most of the time a very uncomfortable thing for me. Unless you have tapped into something really really scary to me, i sort of feel like its only being done because the other person thinks they should. May be very "unsubmissive" of me but i prefer putting my pieces back together alone... and if i cant get them to fit right, and you knew me, you would know.

Doesn't sound weird to me at all. I have to agree with you here Kajira.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Doesn't sound weird to me at all. I have to agree with you here Kajira.

 

[ammre]

I need something... It could be as simple as a light touch on the cheek and a "good girl" but SOMETHING.
If i don't get something.. i won't sit there and complain... i'll take it to heart and fester... If you wanted to be a mentally sadistic dominant all you have to do is ignore that simple need and i'll tear myself apart over it. It's sorta like that mind fuck thing pure was talking about...
Most of the time i don't like indepth cuddling... I'd rather be told to get him some water or something and get a pat on the head, than full force cuddling...
Sometimes i want to be held.. but most of the time that's NOT after a scene... that would be more like after a bad day of work or a family trauma or something...

I may enjoy being a toy but we at least clean our toys after use... i deserve at least a pat on the head or a smile.

 

[AvaAdore]

I have yet to find any permanent harm done to My toys when the after care is delayed for many many hours. In fact often I have found an even deeper submission over takes them after the tears and moans have subsided.

yes, i can definately see that, though i havent experienced it myself.

i dont think cuddling is essential. what i do think i need is some kind of acknowledgement. just a smile or a friendly gesture, holding hands while taking a walk afterwords, things like that.

after a good scene i am completely ecstatic and i sit there smiling like an idiot, especially if i get a complement. i only *need* to be comforted if something went wrong somewhere that i am upset about. other than that, it's just enjoying being with the other person after having a good time.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I guess all it comes down to is that I'd never last with someone who thought they were automatically entitled to a big blob of affection after recieving chastisement. I am leary of such quid pro quo arrangements. Which seems to have been borne out in reality.

Or as my stalker PS implies perhaps with rathbone the "scene" is never over, eh?