Affirmative Action Revisited

[amicus]

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/affirmativetimeline1.html

March 6, 1961

Executive Order 10925 makes the first reference to "affirmative action"
President John F. Kennedy issues Executive Order 10925, which creates the Committee on Equal Employment Opportunity and mandates that projects financed with federal funds "take affirmative action" to ensure that hiring and employment practices are free of racial bias.

~~~~~~~~

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/affirmative1.html

“…In its tumultuous 45-year history, affirmative action has been both praised and pilloried as an answer to racial inequality. The policy was introduced in 1965 by President Johnson as a method of redressing discrimination that had persisted in spite of civil rights laws and constitutional guarantees. "This is the next and more profound stage of the battle for civil rights," Johnson asserted. "We seek… not just equality as a right and a theory, but equality as a fact and as a result."…

“…A Zero-Sum Game for Conservatives
Fueled by "angry white men," a backlash against affirmative action began to mount. To conservatives, the system was a zero-sum game that opened the door for jobs, promotions, or education to minorities while it shut the door on whites. In a country that prized the values of self-reliance and pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps, conservatives resented the idea that some unqualified minorities were getting a free ride on the American system. "Preferential treatment" and "quotas" became expressions of contempt. Even more contentious was the accusation that some minorities enjoyed playing the role of professional victim. Why could some minorities who had also experienced terrible adversity and racism-Jews and Asians, in particular-manage to make the American way work for them without government handouts?..."

~~~~~~~~~~

As you may have heard on the news, the Supreme Court will hear Affirmative Action cases again in the coming months and predictions are that the new members of the Court may alter the course of History over the past forty-five years by reversing the trend towards a ‘quota’ system for hiring and educational admittance. The University of Michigan is fighting a recent ballot measure initiative that forbid Affirmative Action in student applications.

The left side of the political spectrum has a penchant for seeing inviting goals, such as racial equality, as being a good thing for all of society. Few can disagree that the goal is an admirable one, a worth one, an honorable one. However, as in much of the social legislation perpetrated by the left, the means to such ends often involves sacrifices of rights and liberties by others.

In the real world, competitive jobs and places in college are awarded to the best qualified, thus the most deserving. That is rational; it also reflects a matter of justice in a social system where those who deserve to win, do.

While it is arguably a good thing for racial minorities to gain entrance to higher education and better paying jobs, it is also arguable that the damage done to a just society by denying those better qualified far outweighs the possible benefits of affirmative action programs.

Although I suppose this will be considered a ‘partisan’ issue, I suggest it is of wider political value; issues that deal with the very nature of our form of Government and the role government plays in society.

While I am personally not happy that some are rejected from jobs and schooling based on skin color or gender, I am equally unhappy that some are chosen because of that minority status, with the ‘merit’ of the situation disregarded.

We Americans are either a free people functioning beneath the Constitutional protection of the enumerated rights in which the power of government is limited, by law, to protecting those rights…or we are not.

I choose to be free.

Amicus…


(Blame the Sci Fi channel for this thread, I was all set to watch two, hour long episodes of, “Dead Like Me” when a freakin’ “HULK” movie came on, so I went to the news channels and was inspired to thus rant.)

 

[Pure]

i'm glad the new SC is going to deal with this commie affirmative action plot. wasn't it Karl Marx who said, "all men are created equal." baloney. equality is subversive concept promoted by statists and tyrannts everywhere. yes, all are 'equal'-- because all are oppressed!

nature's outcomes show who is best, who achieves and who falls behind. man must face that reality, not try to suppress it with egalitarian pipe dreams.

 

[S-Des]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I think it's undeniable that in all segments of our society, minorities were denied opportunities (both in education and in jobs). They were done so directly (through discrimination) and indirectly (through lack of viable opportunities). The solution of Affirmative Action helped right some of those wrongs.

Unfortunately, it had unintended consequences (as things designed by man always do). When people realized that there were loopholes, some took advantage of it. My dad told me the story of a hispanic worker he was forced to take on during a job (he was a construction foreman). He didn't have predjudices (at least not that interfered with him hiring the best worker), but this man annoyed him immediately. He was slow, unattentive, and argumentative (which can be dangerous around heavy equipment like that). After a day of yelling at him, my dad attempted to fire him, but was informed that he couldn't. Despite there being untold numbers of hard working hispanics who would love a good-paying job, because of the way the rules were written, it would have been too much hassle to let him go, so my dad was told he had to keep him.

His solution? The next day, he brought a bucket out to the middle of the bridge, and had the man sit on it for the entire shift. That was his assignment during the duration of the job (while everyone else of any number of ethnic backgrounds had to make up his work). While that problem has been rectified to some extent, there will always be people who will seek to take advantage of the system, not caring who gets hurt. If AA gets struck down, hopefully people will be hired and fired based on the quality of their work, not the color of their skin (a really great man said something like that once). Things aren't perfect, so I'm sure there will still be discrimination, but hopefully it can be taken care of through other channels.

One way or another, the solution is better education for everyone. No child in this country should have to deal with sub-par conditions to learn in. Until that's fixed, nothing will solve all the problems.

 

[SweetPrettyAss]

i'm glad the new SC is going to deal with this commie affirmative action plot. wasn't it Karl Marx who said, "all men are created equal." baloney. equality is subversive concept promoted by statists and tyrannts everywhere. yes, all are 'equal'-- because all are oppressed!

nature's outcomes show who is best, who achieves and who falls behind. man must face that reality, not try to suppress it with egalitarian pipe dreams.

Marx may have said that but it was included earlier in the Declaration of Independence. Even then it was not entirely so because of slavery but it was a step in the right direction.

Some people are better at doing some things than other people are. If you want to hire somebody to do those things, you should be able to hire or promote the better people, without concern for race, gender, religion or any other extraneous fact.

 

[amicus]

"...i'm glad the new SC is going to deal with this commie affirmative action plot. wasn't it Karl Marx who said, "all men are created equal." baloney. equality is subversive concept promoted by statists and tyrannts everywhere. yes, all are 'equal'-- because all are oppressed!

nature's outcomes show who is best, who achieves and who falls behind. man must face that reality, not try to suppress it with egalitarian pipe dreams...."


~~~~~~

Well, Clown, I should have expected you to rush to the defense of those simpering egalitarian pipe dreams that the ill informed so desperately wish to believe in.

One by one on this forum, I and others have debunked, exposed and denuded the ‘darling’ programs of the left to turn a free society into a managed socialist utopia.

Including, but not limited to:

Social Security, a ‘Ponzi’ scheme if ever there was one.

Socialized Medicine where people flee to free nations for healthcare.

Environmentalism that has created an energy crisis, driven up the price of home ownership and land purchases and restricted vast areas from development and human habitation.

The Kyoto Accords, the global warming scam, that has slowed development and growth and retarded progress in all areas of meaningful endeavor.

Public education which all agree has failed abominably.

The contentious one, women’s liberation and abortion, qua, reproductive rights to take an innocent life.

The less contentious one, gay rights, gay marriage, homosexual lifestyle promoted as ‘normal’ and acceptable.

All of these and more, I and others have rebutted and the best you have done is too sarcastically criticize the entire concept of freedom, never even attempting to defend your sordid socialist ideals.

And now, Affirmative action, the quota system, the destruction of values in favor of enforced equality, that too, except for the blind, is an abridgement of human rights.

As I have implied and even said in plain words before, I feel a small tinge of pity for you as you realize you cannot defend and indefensible social philosophy and can only whimper and whine about the unfairness of life and nature.

Poor boy.


Amicus…

 

[TE999]

Equality of opportunity does not automatically equate to equality of outcome.

This little fact seemed to escape the AA crusaders.

This is a flawed idea that is past it's prime and I hope the SCOTUS does away with it.

Education and/or technical training is the key to success, not some paunchy bureaucrat in Washington cranking out statistical quotas based on Census Data or some such twaddle.

Yes, discrimination still exists today, on both sides of the aisle BTW.

So you either go through it or around it.

When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade.

Or you can wait for the aforementioned bureaucrat to hand you a cool glass, fresh squeezed.

Freedom, it's a beautiful thing. It just scares some people.

Peace.

 

[TE999]

Marx may have said that but it was included earlier in the Declaration of Independence. Even then it was not entirely so because of slavery but it was a step in the right direction.

Some people are better at doing some things than other people are. If you want to hire somebody to do those things, you should be able to hire or promote the better people, without concern for race, gender, religion or any other extraneous fact.

What the lady said! WOOT!

Peace.

 

[amicus]

S-Des... "...I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I think it's undeniable that in all segments of our society, minorities were denied opportunities (both in education and in jobs). They were done so directly (through discrimination) and indirectly (through lack of viable opportunities). The solution of Affirmative Action helped right some of those wrongs..."

~~~~


I have to agree with you in part and I say that because I do not think it happened only in the United States, I think it is a fact of human nature that we are more comfortable around those who look and act similar to us.

I imagine you might agree, if you have kind of kept track, as have I, over the years, that the plight of African Americans, Blacks, Negroes, remains as critical as it ever has. Highest unemployment, highest crime rate, highest unwed mothers and fatherless children, more on welfare and foodstamps and public assistance and this after forty years of aggressive, progressive affirmative action programs.

In other words...affirmative action has not worked as it was hoped it would, the problems still remain and are perhaps even exacerbated by higher expectations.

It boils down, I think, to an irrefutable fact, that you cannot force equality upon a people, perhaps even freedom, as we are painfully learning in the middle east.

I can however, understand how the politically sensitive, the pinko ladies of the left, feel compelled to be meddlesome in the affairs of man.

Unfortunately, their meddling always seems to cause more harm than good.

amicus...

 

[amicus]

"...Freedom, it's a beautiful thing. It just scares some people..."


Hey TE999 nicely said...I think I like you!

amicus...

 

[JamesSD]

Equality is an important role of government, equal to that of Liberty and Security.

College admissions should be a complex, nuanced process. Unfortunately, huge universities typically break students down into numbers. When affirmative action ended in California (which was years ago, for those who forget), the end result was more Asians were admitted to the UC system (who typically score quite well on standardized tests) and far less blacks and latinos were admitted. Standardized test scores count for far more than they should (and I should know, having been the beneficiary of high test scores). Couple this with the fact that high school GPAs are hardly reliable anymore (there are schools that regularly have 40 valedictorians with perfect GPAs!), and college admissions start to look very heavily at one number, the SAT.

I'm fairly moderate in my opinion of the SAT. I think it should be used as one potential indicator for future academic success. I think the actual test has issues, and the fact that students who take seminar classes that specifically teach to the test can raise their score significantly are both red flags. Still, it is standardized, and has some use as one of many factors in admissions decisions.

In 2006, race isn't really the best criteria for affirmative action programs. Socioeconomic factors are a far better screening method for fufiling society's role of helping those who have overcome greater difficulties.

Generally, as currently implemented, most affirmative action programs help wealthy minorities. It's hard to argue that a black kid from an affluent suburb deserves more assistance than a rural white kid.

I assume, of course, that any opponent of affirmative action also believes that Harvard et al should do away with preferences for legacies and athletes? As private institutions it's unlikely they'll be compelled to do so by law, but it would still be nice to see that change.

The irony is that in about 20 years it's going to be white males who are clamoring for "equal representation" (they won't dare call it affirmative action), as Asians and females continue gobbling up more and more spots at top universities.

(Of course, in 200 years race will be a non-issue, as the majority of Americans will be light brown, mixed racial individuals)


To summarize, I support an end to racial preferences in college admissions to be replaced by (voluntary) assistance based on economic factors. I suspect this puts me in a centrist position that a lot of people will disagree with.

I also oppose quotas in hiring, as I think they tend to hurt everyone. I do support enforcable rules regarding discrimination.

 

[TE999]

"...Freedom, it's a beautiful thing. It just scares some people..."


Hey TE999 nicely said...I think I like you!

amicus...

Back atcha', ami.

You da man!

I got a million of 'em.

 

[amicus]

JameSD "...College admissions should be a complex, nuanced process. Unfortunately, huge universities typically break students down into numbers..."

~~~~

I don't think the public education system, colleges included, can be fixed. Just on the news last night, a college football coach got a raise in salary from 1.25 to 1.75 million per year, I can't recall the school, perhaps someone can.

I think education, at all levels, should be openly available to all who desire it, just like hamburgers and taco's or Chinese and Thai, or Red Lobster, Friday's or Outback, I think the free marketplace would provide an affordable education at many levels.

Unfortunately, I think it would take a revolution to overthrow the left and the public minded who feel they must 'force' children to be educated and 'force' property owners to pay for it.

As TE999 said....freedom scares a lot of people...


amicus...

 

[elsol]

*yawn*

Depends...

a. Do you believe renumeration as a part of justice?

b. Do you believe that past actions have an affect on the status of present people's (as a group and individuals) social, economic, and political status and power today?

c. If your answer to be is yes, do you believe that was an 'injustice'?

I don't believe this 'just society' does have an equality of opportunity because I do believe killing 10 million blacks in the Crossing, instutional slavery, and institutionalized segregation and prejudice did & does have an effect on a black Americans (as a group and as an individual) social, economic, and political status and power.

But hey... I understand... it does suck to be shit on so that a 'society' can advance.

 

[S-Des]

I assume, of course, that any opponent of affirmative action also believes that Harvard et al should do away with preferences for legacies and athletes? As private institutions it's unlikely they'll be compelled to do so by law, but it would still be nice to see that change.

To summarize, I support an end to racial preferences in college admissions to be replaced by (voluntary) assistance based on economic factors. I suspect this puts me in a centrist position that a lot of people will disagree with.

I also oppose quotas in hiring, as I think they tend to hurt everyone. I do support enforcable rules regarding discrimination.

I'd agree with almost everything you said (so I guess I'm centrist too...at least this time ). I would definitely like to see the stupid welfare for the affluent be removed (legacies and the like). As for athletes, they generate enormous amounts of money for the schools that would be hard to do without, so I can't see that removing that would make anything better.

One big thing to be careful with in regards to any skewing of acceptance numbers is that I've seen several studies that indicated minority drop out rates were artificially inflated because kids who received poor education through high school were allowed (and pressured) into schools that were beyond their skill level (at least without massive levels of tutoring). Kids who should have graduated from moderately difficult colleges were failing out of top schools (as do many kids from all sorts of backgrounds). Not that they shouldn't have the opportunity to go to the "better schools" (although recent studies have shown that some of these schools don't actually get you better jobs in the real world), but people should be honest with them about the risks.

I have a tech degree, scored very high on all my aptitude tests & SAT and can tell you without hesitation that I wouldn't have lasted a semester at Northwestern, Harvard, Stanford, or any number of very demanding schools. Kids shouldn't be pressured to attend the best school they can get into as some sort of inspiration to others. Everyone should do what's in their best interest (because actually getting an education is far more important to their success in life).

 

[amicus]

elsol]*yawn*

Depends...

a. Do you believe renumeration as a part of justice?

b. Do you believe that past actions have an affect on the status of present people's (as a group and individuals) social, economic, and political status and power today?

c. If your answer to be is yes, do you believe that was an 'injustice'?

I don't believe this 'just society' does have an equality of opportunity because I do believe killing 10 million blacks in the Crossing, instutional slavery, and institutionalized segregation and prejudice did & does have an effect on a black Americans (as a group and as an individual) social, economic, and political status and power.

But hey... I understand... it does suck to be shit on so that a 'society' can advance.

[/I]

~~~


"Yawn..." and I actually did as I considered responding to your post against my better judgment as usually I just get an insult in return...but...I am a glutton for punishment, I guess...

I wish you and others would quit singling out the fledgling 13 colonies, up to their ears in Redcoats and Redskins and Mercenary soldiers from Bavaria? as being the only nation in the entire history of the world to have indulged in slavery and indentured servants.

Every empire and nation, from Kubla and Genghis Khan, raped pillaged and plundered, took slaves, burned crops and homes and devastated vast areas in their conquests. As did the Goths and Gauls and Romans and Egyptians, the Dutch the Spanish, the English and the Germans.

It is a fact of history and indeed of nature itself, that conquering armies decimated indigenous natives; not just Native Americans and Blacks were exploited, every weaker peoples anywhere and everywhere either survived by becoming part of the new order or they died resisting or were made slaves.

If you read the actual documents and transcripts of the founding fathers when they debated equality for women and blacks and Indians, you will discover they knew the almost impossible task they had set forth on; to guarantee equality for each.

Knowing they could not impliment those changes immediately, they still set the principle forth in writing and in basic law, to be dealt with another time...and they were, one by one, dealt with.

Rather than just blatantly express your hatred of American History, why not realize just what magnificent achievements this people have forged from a very tenuous beginning.

amicus...

 

[elsol]

Rather than just blatantly express your hatred of American History, why not realize just what magnificent achievements this people have forged from a very tenuous beginning.

amicus...

Amicus: This car runs great!

ElSol: Do you smell that?

Amicus: Shut up!

ElSol: Smells like gasoline!

Amicus: You mean, 'Smells like Victory!'

ElSol: Smells like burning now...

Amicus: I love the smell of napalm in the morning!

ElSol: I'd love the smell of Pit Stop Joe right now!

Amicus: No... Stay the Course!

ElSol: Dude, seriously! We are on fire!

Amicus: To infinity, and beyond!

ElSol: Tell you what! Since the fire is in the back, how about we switch chairs so you get burned first... but I promise no pit stops and I won't slow down until you at least are in the 'beyond'!

Amicus: Relativist!

ElSol: *sigh* Okay... just go faster then!

Amicus: What are you doing?

ElSol: I'm handcuffing us together... if I go, you're going too!

Amicus: That's immoral!

ElSol: Yeah...yeah...yeah... relativist here, remember?

 

[cloudy]

Amicus: This car runs great!

ElSol: Do you smell that?

Amicus: Shut up!

ElSol: Smells like gasoline!

Amicus: You mean, 'Smells like Victory!'

ElSol: Smells like burning now...

Amicus: I love the smell of napalm in the morning!

ElSol: I'd love the smell of Pit Stop Joe right now!

Amicus: No... Stay the Course!

ElSol: Dude, seriously! We are on fire!

Amicus: To infinity, and beyond!

ElSol: Tell you what! Since the fire is in the back, how about we switch chairs so you get burned first... but I promise no pit stops and I won't slow down until you at least are in the 'beyond'!

Amicus: Relativist!

ElSol: *sigh* Okay... just go faster then!

Amicus: What are you doing?

ElSol: I'm handcuffing us together... if I go, you're going too!

Amicus: That's immoral!

ElSol: Yeah...yeah...yeah... relativist here, remember?

*snicker*

 

[Pure]

you've got them all down, ami,

ami One by one on this forum, I and others have debunked, exposed and denuded the ‘darling’ programs of the left to turn a free society into a managed socialist utopia.

Including, but not limited to:

Social Security, a ‘Ponzi’ scheme if ever there was one.

Socialized Medicine where people flee to free nations for healthcare.

Environmentalism

Magnificent! You've debunked all the commie plots going. Equality and Security, that's all the pinko socialist second-handers think about in their sleazy 'altrustic' morass. They don't realize that the Declaration of Independence's phrase 'pursuit of happiness,' is just that; happiness itself is never a right.