Acceptable ambiguity

[litmlove]

I was wondering whether it is OK to be ambiguous about the setting of the story. Normally the story setting is not an issue, but the story I am writing involves a couple traveling overseas to a 3rd world country - possibly meeting a few people too. I want to be purposefully ambiguous so the reader can insert their own ideas. Does this work?

Do ambiguous body types work too? How vague is it acceptable to be?

 

[MrFoxwood]

I tend to be pretty ambiguous about a lot of things such as setting and appearance. I'd rather let the reader fill in the blanks for themself.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Being ambiguous about location is a common trait even amongst stories set in the US. Yet, if you leave things too vague, readers may click out. I would think, at least, you have to differentiate between Asian, Arabic and African settings to let us get a feel for the culture.

Personally, I expect an author to develop their characters so I can see the story through their eyes. A reader will always interpret the protagonists through their own minds but I believe that good stories depend on a writer strongly developing the main characters to create a strong framework.

Ambiguous body types sounds surreal. Sure, a lot of stories on Lit go into silly physical body descriptions but a broad brush - big, small, perky, huge, blonde, shaved, trimmed, etc., is almost a pre-requisite for an erotic story to find success.

 

[litmlove]

Being ambiguous about location is a common trait even amongst stories set in the US. Yet, if you leave things too vague, readers may click out. I would think, at least, you have to differentiate between Asian, Arabic and African settings to let us get a feel for the culture.

Personally, I expect an author to develop their characters so I can see the story through their eyes. A reader will always interpret the protagonists through their own minds but I believe that good stories depend on a writer strongly developing the main characters to create a strong framework.

Ambiguous body types sounds surreal. Sure, a lot of stories on Lit go into silly physical body descriptions but a broad brush - big, small, perky, huge, blonde, shaved, trimmed, etc., is almost a pre-requisite for an erotic story to find success.

I agree.

I thought about using a character trait to keep my characters hotel bound But I suppose I could get away with a generic busy Arabic city. If I can rope-in the Turks & Iranians into the list of possible locations with enough ambiguity, well, all the better

So ambiguity is ok, but if:
-your locations sound featureless
-your characters formless
-and your character's feeling are robotic
Then you have gone too far. Or am I generalising too much?

 

[Bramblethorn]

I was wondering whether it is OK to be ambiguous about the setting of the story. Normally the story setting is not an issue, but the story I am writing involves a couple traveling overseas to a 3rd world country - possibly meeting a few people too. I want to be purposefully ambiguous so the reader can insert their own ideas. Does this work?

It certainly can work, depending on how you're telling the story - I've read plenty before that didn't specify a country, although they usually gave some idea of which part of the world they were set in.

Just make sure there's enough else in the story to hold readers' attention, and that they have enough information for it to make sense.

Do ambiguous body types work too? How vague is it acceptable to be?

Different readers like different things. Some like a very detailed visual description, others are happy with no physical description at all. I don't tend to visualise much so that stuff is wasted on me; I'm more interested in thought processes.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ELFIN I aint following your logical trail. You ask if ambiguity if OK, then submit that its common. Are you blabbering to be blabbering?

 

[loquere]

I was wondering whether it is OK to be ambiguous about the setting of the story. Normally the story setting is not an issue, but the story I am writing involves a couple traveling overseas to a 3rd world country - possibly meeting a few people too. I want to be purposefully ambiguous so the reader can insert their own ideas. Does this work?

Do ambiguous body types work too? How vague is it acceptable to be?

This is interesting because I was considering not mentioning which US. state my characters were in noticing that's done a fair bit here. I've been researching specific roads & other locals & it's been killing my buzz.

 

[headdoctor]

It seems to me that ambiguity should be an intentional effect, not simply lazy vagueness. In that sense, ambiguity can be very powerful. For example: "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...." Or: "It was many and many a year ago/In a kingdom by the sea."

 

[PennLady]

I'm often pretty vague in my settings, mostly because to me, it doesn't seem that important. If I set something in a city, it doesn't have to be New York city or something like that, it's usually just that I want the idea of a large metro area as opposed to something else.

You can be as vague or not as you like, because it's your story. There's no one right way to do it. Now you may start and realize it's not working for you, in which case you may need to add specific details or names, but that'd be a problem for you, not a problem in general.

 

[Swilly]

I think you can get away without being specific unless the story really needs it. My partner and I did one for the tag team competition. We knew where it was, but didn't directly spell it out. It worked.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

So am I the only one that uses the settings to define the character who in turn define the setting?

I think that knowing where and when the story takes place is fairly important.

Now the characters descriptions can be ambiguous, maybe just describing a few traits and then letting the reader fill in the rest because they see what they want to see.

But where the story takes place take but a few words so the reader can build the picture in their mind. They may never have been there, but a house is a house, a hut is a hut, a building is a building the world over.

Only caves can be tricky.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

So am I the only one that uses the settings to define the character who in turn define the setting?

I think that knowing where and when the story takes place is fairly important.

Now the characters descriptions can be ambiguous, maybe just describing a few traits and then letting the reader fill in the rest because they see what they want to see.

But where the story takes place take but a few words so the reader can build the picture in their mind. They may never have been there, but a house is a house, a hut is a hut, a building is a building the world over.

Only caves can be tricky.

I think this is a not altogether unusual technique. There are many writers who, in a Tolkien-esque way, simply build a world and that world, in turn, populates itself with characters-. Sci-fi and fantasy writers, and others whose stories take place in worlds that are markedly different from the norm--even period writers--seem very fond of this style, as their intent is to showcase setting as much--if not more--than the characters.

On the other hand, there are authors who shape characters exquisitely and completely, sculpting them in a vacuum of sorts, and then plop them in a place that seems reasonably well suited for them, saving their nails for crucifixion rather than construction. In the sentence, "there was a man who lived in a house", they focus on the words "man" and "lived", and could care less about the house.

In my experience, stories tend to tell themselves regardless of which end you start at. Once you have one detail, it whispers to you of the rest.

 

[sr71plt]

Just about anything will work if you write it correctly/well. Ambiguity is a bread and butter technique in story writing. Just go for and it and assess it after it's written.

 

[loquere]

Just about anything will work if you write it correctly/well. Ambiguity is a bread and butter technique in story writing. Just go for and it and assess it after it's written.

I'm going to try and do that. I tend to get distracted by the details.

 

[Aynmair]

Here to learn

I think this is a not altogether unusual technique. There are many writers who, in a Tolkien-esque way, simply build a world and that world, in turn, populates itself with characters-. Sci-fi and fantasy writers, and others whose stories take place in worlds that are markedly different from the norm--even period writers--seem very fond of this style, as there intent is to showcase setting as much--if not more--than the characters.

On the other hand, there are authors who shape characters exquisitely and completely, sculpting them in a vacuum of sorts, and then plop them in a place that seems reasonably well suited for them, saving their nails for crucifixion rather than construction. In the sentence, "there was a man who lived in a house", they focus on the words "man" and "lived", and could care less about the house.

In my experience, stories tend to tell themselves regardless of which end you start at. Once you have one detail, it whispers to you of the rest.

Very nicely put...

Just about anything will work if you write it correctly/well. Ambiguity is a bread and butter technique in story writing. Just go for and it and assess it after it's written.

...and nicely to the point.

 

[Hypoxia]

Whatever works.

So far, all my tales here have specific settings, although some are anonymized to protect the guilty. That might mean inventing place names, or relocating the story, or just being vague about exactly where a scenario occurs. A very few of my pieces DON'T exist in map coordinates in my head -- I'll invent a generic town or state or nation as needed. Characters are similar -- maybe actual people anonymized, or based on real people, or generic inventions, and I haven't even built any androids yet.

Don't sweat it. Just write, dammit.

 

[Athalia]

It seems to me that ambiguity should be an intentional effect, not simply lazy vagueness. In that sense, ambiguity can be very powerful. For example: "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...." Or: "It was many and many a year ago/In a kingdom by the sea."

Well said!

And it depends on the nature of the ambiguity. Take the example of the "third world country." If you can describe the humidity, the brilliant colors of the tropical forest, the dust and the jitneys and the chickens in the road, it really doesn't matter which country it is; you've already made it real to the reader. If, on the other hand, you simply say "It happened last year in Senegal," you require the reader to provide the necessary detail to set the scene, because he or she probably doesn't know squat about Senegal.

That's my take on it, anyway. Focus on the details that make the story real, and let the remaining ambiguity work for you by inviting the reader to provide the other details.

 

[CapnCuddly]

And here I thought this thread was going to be about passable trannies.

 

[Bramblethorn]

And here I thought this thread was going to be about passable trannies.

Just so you're aware, "tranny" is a highly offensive term, roughly on a level with calling a black person a "n*gger". Unless you're aiming to offend I strongly recommend choosing a different word.

 

[lovecraft68]

On that note cunt and slut and whore are derogatory terms that many women find offensive

however there are never any complaints are there?

I long for the days of sticks and stones. If you find a term offensive fine, but its not anyone's job to tell other people what they can and cannot say.

PC on a porn board, it kills me.

 

[Bramblethorn]

On that note cunt and slut and whore are derogatory terms that many women find offensive

however there are never any complaints are there?

I don't care what people call one another in the bedroom, but if somebody showed up on this forum and started referring to women as "cunts" I hope they'd get a pretty hostile reaction. Certainly would from me, if I was reading it.

I long for the days of sticks and stones.

Speaking of "sticks and stones":

A trans woman, murdered five months ago, has finally been given a proper funeral in Rome. Back on 29 July, Andrea Quintero was discovered on a train track in the Italian capital’s main Termini station. While at first it appeared to have been a suicide, an investigation found she was beaten to death with sticks and thrown off the platform... she had a paralyzed arm and was walking with a limp as a result of a previous beating.

Here's another one:

Islan Nettles was out in New York City with friends when a group of young men approached her, learned she was a transgender woman and began taunting and maliciously beating her—right in front of a police precinct in Harlem.

The fashion design student with delicate features was punched in the face, knocked to the ground and beaten until she lost consciousness on the night of August 16.

“They were called f****, they were called he-she’s, she males, things of that nature,” Nettles’ mother told a local newscast.

Islan Nettles, born Vaughn Nettles, fell into a coma she would never awake from. She died Thursday after being taken off of life support. She was only 21.

And another one:

In her trial, McDonald said she and her friends were confronted outside the Schooner Tavern by Dean Schmitz and others. According to the charges against McDonald, this occurred shortly after midnight.Schmitz, his girlfriend Jenny Thoreson, and his ex-girlfriend Molly Flaherty had stepped out of the bar for a cigarette. McDonald said they shouted racist and transphobic slurs, while Thoreson, in interviews with police, only recalled that their remarks had been "derogatory" and "sarcastic". Thomas recalled Schmitz, Thoreson, and Flaherty saying "oh you faggots, you nigger lovers, and whoop-de-woo, you ain't nothing but a bunch of nigger babies," and that in response he went over to talk to Schmitz. According to Thomas, Schmitz then walked off and "started talking this stuff, like, 'Oh, look at the tranny over there, look at that tranny.'" McDonald said in a letter from Hennepin County jail that Schmitz called everyone in McDonald's group the n-word. McDonald testified that she and her friends tried to walk away, but that Flaherty started a fight by smashing a glass of alcohol against her face, cutting her and requiring 11 stitches. McDonald was asked in court whether Flaherty then said "I can take on all of you bitches", to which she replied in the affirmative; Thoreson recalled that at this point Flaherty threw the first punch.

Plenty more stories like those. People use verbal abuse to gear themselves up for physical violence. Let me put it this way: if you overheard your sister's or daughter's boyfriend talking about women as "cunts", would you maybe be concerned about their physical safety? Or would you shrug it off as "just words"?

If you find a term offensive fine, but its not anyone's job to tell other people what they can and cannot say.

PC on a porn board, it kills me.

I'm not telling anybody what they can or can't say. If somebody knows a word is offensive and uses it anyway, probably not a lot of point in arguing about it - they already know they're being an arsehole.

But quite a few people use "tr*nny" without realising it's offensive, so I thought I'd say something about it in case CapnCuddly was in that category. Who wants to be offending people by mistake?

 

[litmlove]

Well said!

... Focus on the details that make the story real, and let the remaining ambiguity work for you by inviting the reader to provide the other details.

There we have it, Athalia has elegantly summarised how ambiguity should work.

 

[headdoctor]

And for those wanting a more thorough workout, there's William Empson's 1930 classic of literary criticism, "Seven Types of Ambiguity." I think for our purposes, though, this thread gets the point across....