Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

[SierraMoon]

I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I've noticed Master Phoenix and Rose being attacked personally in quite a few threads lately and being a newbie myself I was more than a little disappointed. Guess I wrongly assumed this board was full of grown-ups with different views on life who could hold back on the whole who's better than who, who's way is best thing.

I couldn't agree more.....

I started to read this thread, thinking there might be a great conversation going on. Then I run into all the crap

 

[catalina_francisco]

I couldn't agree more.....

I started to read this thread, thinking there might be a great conversation going on. Then I run into all the crap

Then SM, as I have said before to similar comments by people who have not contributed to the discussion but had plenty to complain about as far as what they read, by all means add what you have to say on the topic of discussion...the more the merrier and the only way to get good discussions going or continuing is by people contributing their 2 cents worth, not just reading and maybe critiquing the quality of what others have to say on the matter. It is (the forum) a great form of entertainment when bored or at a loose end, but really it is nice if everyone says something constructive, not just wait to be entertained by those who do have something to say and say it.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I can no longer sink into that deep subspace that helped me process the pain as being so pleasurable because that would mean taking my focus off what I am there for, to serve.

So it's not really something I look to gain back as I think gaining that back would mean sacrificing some of my focus. Not acceptable anymore

Yep, that is one of the reasons he has always disliked subspace being a place to dwell, thus I have not been there. He says he will allow it sometime in the future just so I can experience it, but for everyday he does not like it included at all.

Catalina

 

[SierraMoon]

Then SM, as I have said before to similar comments by people who have not contributed to the discussion but had plenty to complain about as far as what they read, by all means add what you have to say on the topic of discussion...the more the merrier and the only way to get good discussions going or continuing is by people contributing their 2 cents worth, not just reading and maybe critiquing the quality of what others have to say on the matter. It is (the forum) a great form of entertainment when bored or at a loose end, but really it is nice if everyone says something constructive, not just wait to be entertained by those who do have something to say and say it.

Catalina

You know, I had really thought to be part of the original discussion, but this thread has branched off in so many different areas, that i have a hard time remembering what the original topic was.

Just an outsider giving her .02 cents

 

[Marquis]

God, I wish I had time to catch up on this beef.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Yep, that is one of the reasons he has always disliked subspace being a place to dwell, thus I have not been there. He says he will allow it sometime in the future just so I can experience it, but for everyday he does not like it included at all.

Catalina

ok..here goes the thread in another direction hehe...but...how do you control subspace?? i mean, for me, it just happens, it's not something i can stop from happening, or at least if i can, i don't know that i can. it's somewhere my mind just goes. i don't put myself there, nor Does Master 'put' me there, it just happens. so when i read your post i'm i was confused, think you could clarify??

 

[catalina_francisco]

ok..here goes the thread in another direction hehe...but...how do you control subspace?? i mean, for me, it just happens, it's not something i can stop from happening, or at least if i can, i don't know that i can. it's somewhere my mind just goes. i don't put myself there, nor Does Master 'put' me there, it just happens. so when i read your post i'm i was confused, think you could clarify??

It is my belief you can control it, and I also know of a couple of subs who were told they were not allowed to go there who did stop it, so it must be under the control of the sub at least to some extent. From what I have heard from those who have learned to stop it, it comes down to being aware of what is happening before it gets to subspace and mentally shutting the gate on it. I have no problem imagining myself being able to get there, just by focusing on what is taking place inside me more so than what is happening between us or for him, but if I do that, as serijules said, I then take my focus off him and that doesn't work for me. Actually, from memory we discussed some of this difference in focus in this thread on Slavespace.

Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

It is my belief you can control it, and I also know of a couple of subs who were told they were not allowed to go there who did stop it, so it must be under the control of the sub at least to some extent. From what I have heard from those who have learned to stop it, it comes down to being aware of what is happening before it gets to subspace and mentally shutting the gate on it. I have no problem imagining myself being able to get there, just by focusing on what is taking place inside me more so than what is happening between us or for him, but if I do that, as serijules said, I then take my focus off him and that doesn't work for me. Actually, from memory we discussed some of this difference in focus in this thread on Slavespace.

Catalina

that is an interesting way of looking at it for sure, i've never thought of it being as me taking my focus off of Him, because honestly, that doesn't happen when i'm in subspace, i've always just looked at it as my minds place it goes when the sensations get to be too much. thanks for the link to the thread, i will read through it, i find this interesting

 

[JMohegan]

That's very true. After a punishment, one of my rules is to not linger or dwell on the issue. Once the punishment is over, the transgression is forgiven, and we move on. If I still am not ready to let go, the punishment continues. That doesn't mean she keeps wailing on my ass until I just drop it....it means we talk and talk until the issue is resolved and I'm usually past the point of tears and words anymore. We hug, the brush is put away, the issue is done with. Atonement.

It's good for her too as you say because not only has she helped me learn or reinforce a lesson (aka, exercised her control/power) but she's gotten some of her OWN frustration of the situation out as well. When I disobey her, she's not pleased. She has her own set of emotions and reactions to the situation as well and needs to deal with them the same as I do. Spanking the hell out of someones backside with a really fucking hard wood brush is a GREAT way to deal with negative emotions, or so she claims <g> She can walk away from it knowing her point was made, I walk away reassured that despite a mistake, I'm still valued and wanted (which IS important to me and one of my vurlnerable areas), and we both walk away knowing we won't need to go down this path again. Forgive and forget (well, sort of, not enough to repeat the mistake!).

Even rare physical punishments that come about in a moment of anger have that eventual effect. It's an unspoken "not going to bed angry" thing.

Another great post. Serijules, thank you for responding to my comments in such a detailed and informative way.

What is interesting to me about the observations I've colored red is the similarity to the motivation of some Dominants when they come home from a frustrating day at work and take out their bad moods on the submissive's backside.

The causes of frustration are very different, but in each case the Dominant is releasing frustration with Type B behavior.

This is one of the hardest things for people in the mainstream world to understand, because as a general rule it is not acceptable to take out your frustrations on another person with physical violence.

Of course, this is where an understanding of the satisfaction and fulfillment of the submissive's needs becomes absolutely critical. This is the key difference between DV abuse and consensual D/s Type B behavior, and why the former is an abomination and the latter is not.

 

[catalina_francisco]

i've always just looked at it as my minds place it goes when the sensations get to be too much.

That is part of why F finds it an undesireable place for me to dwell. For his, the sadist in him doesn't want me to be able to escape the sensations, especially if they are more painful than I would desire or readily endure. If I went into subspace, not only am I denying him that satisfaction and pleasure, but I am also going somewhere where he no longer has access to me, not to mention control.

Catalina

 

[lil_slave_rose]

That is part of why F finds it an undesireable place for me to dwell. For his, the sadist in him doesn't want me to be able to escape the sensations, especially if they are more painful than I would desire or readily endure. If I went into subspace, not only am I denying him that satisfaction and pleasure, but I am also going somewhere where he no longer has access to me, not to mention control.

Catalina

see, i don't agree, because with me in that space He has more access and more control over me. He is all i'm focused on when i'm in that 'space' and though the sensations are different while in space, i still feel, and can still function, it's afterwards that i cannot form a complete sentence. He does have to be more aware of things Himself when i'm in space because i can't differentiate between 'real hurt' and 'good hurt' so he has the potential at that time to 'harm' me. it's hard to explain it, really, but i don't see it as being selfish or that my focus is OFF of him, because for me anyway, in space my focus is MORE on Him......

 

[JMohegan]

Castlerealm is a great source of information, as is Submissive Women Speak, etc. Even Gor can be educational (!) - the problem comes when someone relies on a single site or document as their sole source of information. Someone mentioned that we should remember we are all only ever giving our opinion, that's what we do on this board...but what I think makes this board more valuable than other sites is that readers get a variety of perspectives. If somebody only reads Gor, they're going to come away with a very singular vision of the kink community. If somebody only reads Castlerealm, they're going to have a limited understanding of alternatives. But if somebody comes to Literotica and talks to us, shares with us, learns from us...then I think they can be said to have "done the research" on whatever it is they're looking into.

You are making a great point here, Etoile.

Given the physical, mental, and emotional impact of what I've been calling Type B behavior, I think it is absolutely crucial for new or prospective lifestyle participants to understand that there are always alternatives and it is truly never necessary to engage in the same.

On the subject of punishment and discipline, an alternative perspective is outlined in this post by Evil Geoff.

The needs, goals, and styles of those in the relationship are different from many successful and mutually-beneficial relationships involving corporal punishment.

Different, but no less valid.

 

[JMohegan]

i am a male. your postings are excellent, btw. why turn off both PM and email access? are you a hunted man? trolled?

pure
j.

Thank you.

I turned them off in late November for a variety of reasons, not least of which was increasing awareness of behind-the-scenes drama that I find unnecessary and generally unhelpful to productive communication on the board.

Of course, discovering that I've been inadvertently torturing CutieMouse just makes my decision seem delightfully serendipitous.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

You know, I had really thought to be part of the original discussion, but this thread has branched off in so many different areas, that i have a hard time remembering what the original topic was.

Just an outsider giving her .02 cents

yea. SM, this is not exactly what i had in mind when i started this thread. it HAS gone in MANY different directions and i'm not truly sure if the topic at hand was even really discussed but it has gone on for something like 14 pages, so i can't complain there. yea, there have been attacks on me, but such is life, and for some reason right now, the focus is on punishment rather than abuse and i'm not sure why that's being dwelled on, as there is a HUGE difference. anyway...just wanted to post that i understood what you were saying about making it hard to post when the thread has gone off on so many different directions.

 

[serijules]

ok..here goes the thread in another direction hehe...but...how do you control subspace?? i mean, for me, it just happens, it's not something i can stop from happening, or at least if i can, i don't know that i can. it's somewhere my mind just goes. i don't put myself there, nor Does Master 'put' me there, it just happens. so when i read your post i'm i was confused, think you could clarify??

For me, I hit subspace when I'm doing exactly what the term implies....focusing on the sub. That's me. Myself. Subspace is a fine thing, but it doesn't meld with most concepts of slavery very well because in order for most people to fall that deep into their own mind, their focus is on their pleasure, their bodies, their emotions, etc. Not on serving their owner. I'm not saying it's selfish as it isn't at all, many doms TRY to take their subs to that level. However for some, it means the focus is taken off the dominant and that isn't acceptable or wanted or allowed. If you don't allow your mind to fade out and unfocus from what is expected of you, you will have a lot harder time getting into that spaced out zone.

I agree with catalina...it is controllable. Although I will add that my own control over this came with training, not by an instant order to remain focused.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Another great post. Serijules, thank you for responding to my comments in such a detailed and informative way.

What is interesting to me about the observations I've colored red is the similarity to the motivation of some Dominants when they come home from a frustrating day at work and take out their bad moods on the submissive's backside.

The causes of frustration are very different, but in each case the Dominant is releasing frustration with Type B behavior.

This is one of the hardest things for people in the mainstream world to understand, because as a general rule it is not acceptable to take out your frustrations on another person with physical violence.

Of course, this is where an understanding of the satisfaction and fulfillment of the submissive's needs becomes absolutely critical. This is the key difference between DV abuse and consensual D/s Type B behavior, and why the former is an abomination and the latter is not.

JM, if i may, You keep referring to what 'mainstream' would call abuse, and that is NOT what i meant when i asked the first question. i don't care what mainstream thinks, i wanted views and opinions from those IN the lifestyle. maybe that is where we are not seeing eye to eye. i don't expect the mainstream to understand my relationship or have any part of it. when i started the thread it was for like minds (within the lifestyle) to discuss what crosses the line to abuse in the lifestyle. of course anyone in the 'nilla world would see more than half of the things we do, as abusive.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

For me, I hit subspace when I'm doing exactly what the term implies....focusing on the sub. That's me. Myself. Subspace is a fine thing, but it doesn't meld with most concepts of slavery very well because in order for most people to fall that deep into their own mind, their focus is on their pleasure, their bodies, their emotions, etc. Not on serving their owner. I'm not saying it's selfish as it isn't at all, many doms TRY to take their subs to that level. However for some, it means the focus is taken off the dominant and that isn't acceptable or wanted or allowed. If you don't allow your mind to fade out and unfocus from what is expected of you, you will have a lot harder time getting into that spaced out zone.

I agree with catalina...it is controllable. Although I will add that my own control over this came with training, not by an instant order to remain focused.

i do understand what you're saying, but for me when i'm in that space it is still not about me. i am MORE focused on Him and what HE wants, His words, etc...pain still feel like pain but it has that mixture of pleasure mixed in. it's not easy to describe or explain but i do know that when in space i am MORE focused on Him, not me.

 

[serijules]

see, i don't agree, because with me in that space He has more access and more control over me. He is all i'm focused on when i'm in that 'space' and though the sensations are different while in space, i still feel, and can still function, it's afterwards that i cannot form a complete sentence. He does have to be more aware of things Himself when i'm in space because i can't differentiate between 'real hurt' and 'good hurt' so he has the potential at that time to 'harm' me. it's hard to explain it, really, but i don't see it as being selfish or that my focus is OFF of him, because for me anyway, in space my focus is MORE on Him......

Don't feel bad or that anyone is implying that you are selfish Rose. It is only selfish if it is not something your dominant desires for you. F and D are examples of two dominants who do not wish for subspace to be a part of their interactions, and thus, if catalina and I were to ignore that and not make the effort to control our "sink" into such a space, it WOULD be selfish.

In my relationship, my Owner enjoys giving me pain because she enjoys seeing me in pain. She doesn't want me to be able to "handle" that better, or process it better, or get to a point where I can't communicate with her. That isn't the goal, because those things do not please her. So can you see why it would be considered less of a focus for us if I were to go into subspace? I understand the space you are describing very very well as I've been there very intensely many times prior to belonging to D. I could take so much more pain, I could process it so much better and last through a scene so much longer. It's easy to see how one would feel like their focus is MORE during that. However, having experienced the other side of things as well, I also see now why that focus is not really the right one, at least not for a dominant who wants pure pain from their property.

 

[JMohegan]

JM, if i may, You keep referring to what 'mainstream' would call abuse, and that is NOT what i meant when i asked the first question. i don't care what mainstream thinks, i wanted views and opinions from those IN the lifestyle. maybe that is where we are not seeing eye to eye. i don't expect the mainstream to understand my relationship or have any part of it. when i started the thread it was for like minds (within the lifestyle) to discuss what crosses the line to abuse in the lifestyle. of course anyone in the 'nilla world would see more than half of the things we do, as abusive.

I disagree with the remark in red, but the point is moot.

I also disagree with the idea that the mainstream perspective is irrelevant to this topic or this thread. There are many new, inexperienced, or prospective lifestylers, as well as non-kinky people, who read this board.

 

[serijules]

I disagree with the remark in red, but the point is moot.

I also disagree with the idea that the mainstream perspective is irrelevant to this topic or this thread. There are many new, inexperienced, or prospective lifestylers, as well as non-kinky people, who read this board.

Besides, the rest of us, kinky or not, are still a part of mainstream population as well

 

[catalina_francisco]

I disagree with the remark in red, but the point is moot.

I also disagree with the idea that the mainstream perspective is irrelevant to this topic or this thread. There are many new, inexperienced, or prospective lifestylers, as well as non-kinky people, who read this board.

And there is still that basic idea of what constitutes abuse which comes from the mainstream world and is still relevant to most in D/s relationships in terms of what is and isn't abuse.

Catalina

 

[JMohegan]

Besides, the rest of us, kinky or not, are still a part of mainstream population as well

True!

And there is still that basic idea of what constitutes abuse which comes from the mainstream world and is still relevant to most in D/s relationships in terms of what is and isn't abuse.

Absolutely. Very well said.

 

[serijules]

Another great post. Serijules, thank you for responding to my comments in such a detailed and informative way.

You are welcome, I enjoy the conversations.

 

[Etoile]

Since we've been discussing CP, here's a random link - CP images in advertising through the years

 

[catalina_francisco]

Since we've been discussing CP, here's a random link - CP images in advertising through the years

LOL, very cool to see it in such form.

Catalina