Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

[lil_slave_rose]

This isn't an argument over semantics, Phoenix. I have simply been trying to make sense of your earlier statement that "the difference between a domineering asshammer and a Dominant is self control."

That statement still doesn't make sense to me, especially in light of Catalina's compelling remarks in post 22.

However, your working definitions presented in this post seem reasonable.

I asked because I wanted to give you an opportunity to be forthright in discussing this subject.

You're gonna do what you're gonna do, and I can't stop you.

But I *can* say to all the submissives and potential submissives reading this board: If some guy ever tells you he "has to" crop your ass as punishment for doing or saying the wrong thing, then he's feeding you a load of bull and you shouldn't buy it.

*IF* corporal punishment satisfies and fulfills *both* parties on some level, then of course it is a reasonable and legitimate part of the relationship.

But the "reason" given for corporal punishment is no more noble or valid than the "reason" given in a different relationship when a guy comes home from a bad day at work and takes it out on his partner's ass till she cries tears of genuine pain.

If it works for all parties involved, great. If it doesn't, then that's not what should be going on.

i have bolded this part of your post JM because i dont' understand what you're saying here. you're telling other submissives basically that what Master said doesnt apply to them ,and He never said it did. the second part."*IF* corporal punishment satisfies and fulfills *both* parties on some level, then of course it is a reasonable and legitimate part of the relationship." well...that about sums it up for us...so...again i'm not understanding the problem here.....

 

[MasterPhoenix]

This isn't an argument over semantics, Phoenix. I have simply been trying to make sense of your earlier statement that "the difference between a domineering asshammer and a Dominant is self control."

That statement still doesn't make sense to me, especially in light of Catalina's compelling remarks in post 22.

However, your working definitions presented in this post seem reasonable.

I asked because I wanted to give you an opportunity to be forthright in discussing this subject.

You're gonna do what you're gonna do, and I can't stop you.

But I *can* say to all the submissives and potential submissives reading this board: If some guy ever tells you he "has to" crop your ass as punishment for doing or saying the wrong thing, then he's feeding you a load of bull and you shouldn't buy it.

*IF* corporal punishment satisfies and fulfills *both* parties on some level, then of course it is a reasonable and legitimate part of the relationship.

But the "reason" given for corporal punishment is no more noble or valid than the "reason" given in a different relationship when a guy comes home from a bad day at work and takes it out on his partner's ass till she cries tears of genuine pain.

If it works for all parties involved, great. If it doesn't, then that's not what should be going on.

Dude, I don't know you and you don't know Me. You basically called Me a liar above, and now you are challenging the way that I live Me life with My submissive.

I was being forthright because in the dynamics of MY RELATIONSHIP, it is something that has to be done. To borrow the words of etoile "Its not the cropping, its the correction."

We have a relationship based on the dynamics of a power exchange, and there are times when a punishment or correction is needed to maintain that dynamic. The punishment could be cropping or forced the to sing the ABC song 38 times, it depends on the people in the relationship. At that time a cropping was appropriate. Does this mean that I enjoyed it? I did not, but it is a necessary part of continuing the power dynamic which I do love.

I do not see what you are having difficulty in understanding about the above statement as it applies to MY RELATIONSHIP. It seems pretty damn straightforward to Me.

 

[callinectes]

But the "reason" given for corporal punishment is no more noble or valid than the "reason" given in a different relationship when a guy comes home from a bad day at work and takes it out on his partner's ass till she cries tears of genuine pain.

And this folks, is the take-home message of this thread. It didn't sink into my thick head until a few days ago and I certainly could not have summed it up as nicely as JM has...but there it is. Some of us, self included, have passed judgement in this very thread of other's relationships. A spade is a spade no matter how it is couched.

Thanks Jack!

 

[JMohegan]

Dude, I don't know you and you don't know Me. You basically called Me a liar above, and now you are challenging the way that I live Me life with My submissive.

I was being forthright because in the dynamics of MY RELATIONSHIP, it is something that has to be done. To borrow the words of etoile "Its not the cropping, its the correction."

We have a relationship based on the dynamics of a power exchange, and there are times when a punishment or correction is needed to maintain that dynamic. The punishment could be cropping or forced the to sing the ABC song 38 times, it depends on the people in the relationship. At that time a cropping was appropriate. Does this mean that I enjoyed it? I did not, but it is a necessary part of continuing the power dynamic which I do love.

I do not see what you are having difficulty in understanding about the above statement as it applies to MY RELATIONSHIP. It seems pretty damn straightforward to Me.

I am well aware of the way in which punishment works in a consensual D/s relationship. Etoile has just written some very helpful comments on the subject, but for anyone who is interested in learning more, I highly recommend this excellent post by Serijules.

Phoenix, I am not challenging the way you handle your relationship with Rose. But I do think you are being less than candid in your remarks. For one thing, you keep ducking the question of why you choose physical violence as a means of punishing your slave.

The topic of this thread is abuse. I am no expert on domestic violence, but I do notice a common element in the remarks made by previously abused women.

Post 3, above:

i was hit, punched, spit on, had things thrown at me atleast once a month because he was angry with me over something (usually something really stupid)

Post 21:

I believed at one point that it was my fault, I deserved it, this was all I deserved, etc.

Post 174:

I was in a marriage for 23 years which involved no physical violence, but was abusive in the way he treated me emotionally with putdowns and criticism. This affected my self esteem and self confidence very badly

The common thread seems to be that the abuser lashed out at the victim (physically and/or verbally) and blamed his behavior on the fact that the victim had done or said the wrong thing.

Sound familiar?

Corporal punishment in a consensual D/s relationship looks the same on the surface, but of course it is very different. Why is it different? Not because the Top "has to" take a crop to her ass, but because the corporal punishment itself satisfies and fulfills *both* parties on some level.

 

[JMohegan]

And this folks, is the take-home message of this thread. It didn't sink into my thick head until a few days ago and I certainly could not have summed it up as nicely as JM has...but there it is. Some of us, self included, have passed judgement in this very thread of other's relationships. A spade is a spade no matter how it is couched.

Thanks Jack!

Once again, you understand both my point and my reason for making it. Thank *you*, Callinectes.

 

[intothewoods]

We have a relationship based on the dynamics of a power exchange, and there are times when a punishment or correction is needed to maintain that dynamic. The punishment could be cropping or forced the to sing the ABC song 38 times, it depends on the people in the relationship. At that time a cropping was appropriate. Does this mean that I enjoyed it? I did not, but it is a necessary part of continuing the power dynamic which I do love.

I also am surprised to hear you say you did not enjoy the cropping. I get that it was "necessary" to maintain the power dynamic, but it seems odd that you both wouldn't be getting satisfaction out of the act as well. After all, if I just wanted to learn discipline, I'd become a yogi.

On the subject of "passing judgment," I have to admit I cringe a little when I hear something like, well, who am I to judge? Of course, it would be ridiculous if I pranced aroud in a corset sporting fresh crop marks and said, oh, you who like emotional humilation, y'all are a bunch of sick freaks! But that doesn't mean I will refuse to think critically about what is right in front of me, because it might be, gasp, judgmental.

 

[Shankara20]

....

Corporal punishment in a consensual D/s relationship looks the same on the surface, but of course it is very different. Why is it different? Not because the Top "has to" take a crop to her ass, but because the corporal punishment itself satisfies and fulfills *both* parties on some level.

I agree with this. I work with domestic violence issues as part of my job and there is no way I can yet even mention my passion for BDSM. For people who have been on the receiving end of non-requested violence in a relationship it can be very complicated to sort out all the parts involved and all the harm done.

I hope all here can see that I am not making any comments about anyone who has posted to this thread - I am talking in the abstract, not judging any specific.

 

[Shankara20]

I also am surprised to hear you say you did not enjoy the cropping. I get that it was "necessary" to maintain the power dynamic, but it seems odd that you both wouldn't be getting satisfaction out of the act as well. After all, if I just wanted to learn discipline, I'd become a yogi.

On the subject of "passing judgment," I have to admit I cringe a little when I hear something like, well, who am I to judge? Of course, it would be ridiculous if I pranced aroud in a corset sporting fresh crop marks and said, oh, you who like emotional humilation, y'all are a bunch of sick freaks! But that doesn't mean I will refuse to think critically about what is right in front of me, because it might be, gasp, judgmental.

If I may just add a little about my point of view about "judgments". This is just a comment in general, not directed to you, your post just brought this to my mind.

For years I struggled to stop myself from making judgments, about being critical. I have failed at that, alas I do make judgments. It has been my experiance that problems start when I share my judgemtns. It continues to amaze me how people can become defensive when they feel they are hearing judgments. I’d rather flirt then fight, so I try to craft my language so I keep my judgments inside my mind – unless directly asked for them. But as people can see from the number of times I have had to apologies, restate and clarify, I am yet an accomplished word-smith.

y y everybody....

 

[catalina_francisco]

If I may just add a little about my point of view about "judgments". This is just a comment in general, not directed to you, your post just brought this to my mind.

For years I struggled to stop myself from making judgments, about being critical. I have failed at that, alas I do make judgments. It has been my experiance that problems start when I share my judgemtns. It continues to amaze me how people can become defensive when they feel they are hearing judgments. I’d rather flirt then fight, so I try to craft my language so I keep my judgments inside my mind – unless directly asked for them. But as people can see from the number of times I have had to apologies, restate and clarify, I am yet an accomplished word-smith.

y y everybody....

LOL, don't worry Shankara, everybody makes judgements everyday, otherwise how would they know what they were and weren't prepared to do for a start, it just seems PC to pretend one doesn't that's all....and I fail miserably at being PC and don't apologise for it because without the ability and strength to make the judgements and decisions I have in life, I would not be here today. ....and even those who cry about how others make judgements, are themselves making one.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/382622317_6b70a5a419_t.jpg Catalina

 

[callinectes]

But don't y'all think there is a difference between judging someone's personal relationship and telling them it is "wrong" as opposed to just saying "WTF, that's not for me"? That is the distinction I was trying to make.

 

[catalina_francisco]

But don't y'all think there is a difference between judging someone's personal relationship and telling them it is "wrong" as opposed to just saying "WTF, that's not for me"? That is the distinction I was trying to make.

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, just the usual discussion which arises every few months...and some here also think that saying "WTF, that's not for me" is a judgement and wrong, unfortunately. I just call it being able to recognise your own response and not feel compelled to do and accept everything all the time just because it seems PC to do so...but then I am an opinionated bitch most would say.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/132/384084214_0494620093_t.jpg Catalina

 

[Shankara20]

LOL, don't worry Shankara, everybody makes judgements everyday, otherwise how would they know what they were and weren't prepared to do for a start, it just seems PC to pretend one doesn't that's all....and I fail miserably at being PC and don't apologise for it because without the ability and strength to make the judgements and decisions I have in life, I would not be here today. ....and even those who cry about how others make judgements, are themselves making one.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/382622317_6b70a5a419_t.jpg Catalina

I do agree with you - what I failed to add was making judgments about the actions of others and then sharing that judgemnt with them.

Judgment of what I’m doing is often making a discernment, and a judgment about what you are doing is often misunderstood when it is spoken out loud. I suggest it is possible to disagree with the action of others without judging the people “good” or “bad”. Some folks tend to hear judging words as calling them “bad”.

Shank

 

[Shankara20]

but then I am an opinionated bitch most would say.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/132/384084214_0494620093_t.jpg Catalina

NO!


and I'm a bit of a woose

but WTF!

 

[catalina_francisco]

NO!

Shocking isn't it?!!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/98829922_0c1e66d705_t.jpg Catalina

 

[JMohegan]

On the subject of "passing judgment," I have to admit I cringe a little when I hear something like, well, who am I to judge? Of course, it would be ridiculous if I pranced aroud in a corset sporting fresh crop marks and said, oh, you who like emotional humilation, y'all are a bunch of sick freaks! But that doesn't mean I will refuse to think critically about what is right in front of me, because it might be, gasp, judgmental.

Let's divide pain into two categories.

Type A: Pain that is converted into physical pleasure.

Type B: Pain that just plain *hurts*.

It is relatively easy to accept Type A activities as legitimate, in our own or another relationship. But the issues surrounding Type B are more complex.

Personally I think we all have not just a right but an obligation to ask questions about activities involving Type B pain. I don't find name-calling or pejorative labelling to be particularly helpful, but I do think that questions about the nature and purpose of Type B activities are reasonable and in fact helpful in advancing the common understanding of the difference between abuse and healthy D/s.

I also believe that those who publicly tout their own Type B actitivies have a responsibility to provide calm and rational explanations if questioned about what they do.

As for judgments themselves, I make them all the time and speak up about them when I think it matters. For example, in referencing Type B activities, at the end of post 271 I wrote: "If it works for all parties involved, great. If it doesn't, then that's not what should be going on."

 

[Amora]

Phoenix, I am not challenging the way you handle your relationship with Rose. But I do think you are being less than candid in your remarks. For one thing, you keep ducking the question of why you choose physical violence as a means of punishing your slave.

Ok I'm not Master Phoenix, obviously but he did not duck your question, he responded to it. He chose the physical violence because, as it says in his sig line, he's a sadist!! No, he didn't thoroughly enjoy it because he is a Dom and would prefer his word be obeyed and that Rose answer correctly. She herself admits she knew it was the wrong answer to give!

I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I've noticed Master Phoenix and Rose being attacked personally in quite a few threads lately and being a newbie myself I was more than a little disappointed. Guess I wrongly assumed this board was full of grown-ups with different views on life who could hold back on the whole who's better than who, who's way is best thing.

You know, as a Pagan I've learnt that there are enough people out there disagreeing with the way we do things without fighting amongst ourselves.

Just my 2c and not meant as a personal attack on anyway although I have quoted above this is not meant personally.

Amora

 

[JMohegan]

But don't y'all think there is a difference between judging someone's personal relationship and telling them it is "wrong" as opposed to just saying "WTF, that's not for me"? That is the distinction I was trying to make.

I have a problem with those who criticize others for doing something "wrong" when, in essence, they too are doing the very same thing.

As you said earlier, "A spade is a spade no matter how it is couched."

 

[JMohegan]

Ok I'm not Master Phoenix, obviously but he did not duck your question, he responded to it. He chose the physical violence because, as it says in his sig line, he's a sadist!! No, he didn't thoroughly enjoy it because he is a Dom and would prefer his word be obeyed and that Rose answer correctly. She herself admits she knew it was the wrong answer to give!

I'm gonna let Phoenix himself address this, and either confirm or deny the accuracy of your remarks.

 

[Amora]

No problem there Just giving my opinion.

Amora

 

[JMohegan]

I agree with this. I work with domestic violence issues as part of my job and there is no way I can yet even mention my passion for BDSM. For people who have been on the receiving end of non-requested violence in a relationship it can be very complicated to sort out all the parts involved and all the harm done.

I hope all here can see that I am not making any comments about anyone who has posted to this thread - I am talking in the abstract, not judging any specific.

Thank you, Shank.

This is an incredibly important topic for all of us, and through your work experiences both you and Catalina have a perspective on it that I find invaluable.

 

[Netzach]

Let's divide pain into two categories.

Type A: Pain that is converted into physical pleasure.

Type B: Pain that just plain *hurts*.

It is relatively easy to accept Type A activities as legitimate, in our own or another relationship. But the issues surrounding Type B are more complex.

Personally I think we all have not just a right but an obligation to ask questions about activities involving Type B pain. I don't find name-calling or pejorative labelling to be particularly helpful, but I do think that questions about the nature and purpose of Type B activities are reasonable and in fact helpful in advancing the common understanding of the difference between abuse and healthy D/s.

I also believe that those who publicly tout their own Type B actitivies have a responsibility to provide calm and rational explanations if questioned about what they do.

As for judgments themselves, I make them all the time and speak up about them when I think it matters. For example, in referencing Type B activities, at the end of post 271 I wrote: "If it works for all parties involved, great. If it doesn't, then that's not what should be going on."

I engage in type B behavior because it makes me wet and it addresses broken parts of my psyche that the couch wasn't able to touch. Also it's very exciting when you grow up in a culture that teaches women that violence is NEVER right, and that violent response is something ONLY men are able to channel into a narrow set of "appropriate" outlets, you either live in denial, don't find the suppression of that response problematic, or you do what I'm doing.

Oh, and because I'm Domineering. In intimate relationships, anyway. With strangers I'm a concilliatory pussy unless I'm really strongly offended or I'm in such total disagreement and someone wants verbal warfare. In which case I will win.

I'm not certain that I have to explain myself though simply because I like certain activities...but people who do stuff and have no idea why kind of scare me as a rule, I at least like to postulate a little as it helps me do what I do more effectively.

Now can I get my flogging and get on with my life?

Oh, as a maso, playing casually, I was only interested in type B pain. Lucky for me I can't convert pain too well, so it didn't take long before things were genuinely awful for me. I sought that out because I needed to get in touch with my toughness, what I've got of that. It had nothing to do with extreme submission extreme play and frankly it kept me more emotionally safely DISTANT from my top than pleasureable pain.

 

[Amora]

Oh, as a maso, playing casually, I was only interested in type B pain. Lucky for me I can't convert pain too well, so it didn't take long before things were genuinely awful for me. I sought that out because I needed to get in touch with my toughness, what I've got of that. It had nothing to do with extreme submission extreme play and frankly it kept me more emotionally safely DISTANT from my top than pleasureable pain.

Any chance you would ind explaining the above a little more for the newbie. Pretty please? Particularly the emotionally distant bit please. I'm just not sure what you are saying and would like to know. Obviously if you prefer not to share I respect that, after all, you hardly know me and it may be more in your psyche than you want to discuss.

Thanks

Amora

 

[JMohegan]

I engage in type B behavior because it makes me wet and it addresses broken parts of my psyche that the couch wasn't able to touch. Also it's very exciting when you grow up in a culture that teaches women that violence is NEVER right, and that violent response is something ONLY men are able to channel into a narrow set of "appropriate" outlets, you either live in denial, don't find the suppression of that response problematic, or you do what I'm doing.

Oh, and because I'm Domineering. In intimate relationships, anyway. With strangers I'm a concilliatory pussy unless I'm really strongly offended or I'm in such total disagreement and someone wants verbal warfare. In which case I will win.

I'm not certain that I have to explain myself though simply because I like certain activities...but people who do stuff and have no idea why kind of scare me as a rule, I at least like to postulate a little as it helps me do what I do more effectively.

Now can I get my flogging and get on with my life?

Oh, as a maso, playing casually, I was only interested in type B pain. Lucky for me I can't convert pain too well, so it didn't take long before things were genuinely awful for me. I sought that out because I needed to get in touch with my toughness, what I've got of that. It had nothing to do with extreme submission extreme play and frankly it kept me more emotionally safely DISTANT from my top than pleasureable pain.

I engage in Type B behavior because it makes me hard as a fucking rock. The fact that I can get a woman to voluntarily submit to such a thing gives me a sense of power like no other. It feeds my ego on multiple levels, including the part that is stroked by the fact that she offers this as a gesture of love and devotion for me as an individual human being.

I get off on the power and the control and the emotional feedback.

The questions that I feel most responsible for answering are: How do you know you're not abusing your partner? What makes your Type B activities more legitimate than those of a DV perp?

My answer is: Consent is a big part of the difference, but consent is not enough. Aside from the usual blips that occur in any relationship of any flavor, my partners have all been happy and thriving in both the relationship itself and in their respective communities as a whole.

Why do I feel responsible for answering these questions? Because I am aware of the monkey-see-monkey-do phenomenon in human behavior, and if ever there was a topic warranting frank and full disclosure of the issues involved, surely Type B behavior is it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm gonna get flamed for this, but I've noticed Master Phoenix and Rose being attacked personally in quite a few threads lately and being a newbie myself I was more than a little disappointed. Guess I wrongly assumed this board was full of grown-ups with different views on life who could hold back on the whole who's better than who, who's way is best thing.

You know, as a Pagan I've learnt that there are enough people out there disagreeing with the way we do things without fighting amongst ourselves.

Just my 2c and not meant as a personal attack on anyway although I have quoted above this is not meant personally.

Amora

We won't take it as a personal attack, but we are all human and I for one don't agree anyone has been attacked, but there will always be a need to clarify, debate and explore any topic worth discussing....that to me is grown up. Some prefer to keep all discussions on a level playing field of "I agree's" or similar pleasantries, but IME that may be nice and true for some, but if we stick to the advice to not say anything if we don't feel that sentiment there is no discussion and no opportunity for us all to learn from each other, get to know each other's reality a little better, and reach some sort of understanding about who and what we all are. Given the boards I have visited, I would say this is one of the friendliest and most polite where there actually is some real discussion based on real experiences as opposed to abusive and thrill seeking postings, or just no response at all.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/134/376824463_35ca304946_t.jpg Catalina

 

[Shankara20]

I engage in Type B behavior because it makes me hard as a fucking rock.

I engage in type B behavior because it makes me wet

*Shank remembering why he is a switch and will still bottom once in a while as long as there are Tops around that say things like that*