A strange conversation about an Idea

[MSTarot]

Was at my local used book story yesterday. The lady that owns it used to work as a writer (selling stories to magazines) so she and I get to talking writing a lot.

She told me she has had more than a dozen people come into her store in the last year asking if she buys used e-books.



She and I discussed this for about twenty minutes yesterday. If her one little store is getting that kind of request, from that many people, then there is a market for that to be a successful business.

I'm sure at the moment there are a dozen laws telling you that you can't do that but...

And how? You pay them, download it off their e-reader with a program that wipes it off their's afterwards? Unless you took a magnet to their 'kindle' any half decent computer hack could recover that wiped data

And then there is the legal side of it.

The sites that sell the stories sure as hell wouldn't want you to come in and undercut their prices. But in what way is this any different than a normal bookstore/ used book store relationship.

How about the author? He's not going to get anything from the sell of his book that way, but again that's the normal used book store vs new store.

Is this something that will be a 'normal' thing in this modern electronic literary world?

Comments and suggestions?

Is this do-able even?

MST

 

[DesEsseintes]

As far as I know, one does not ever 'own' an e-book - the rights remain with the seller, whether Apple, Amazon, etc. There are more and more cases cropping up about the problems with digital ownership, but for the time being that puts paid to the idea of second-hand e-books much as it puts paid to the idea of second-hand MP3 files.

When you buy an actual book, it's yours, to burn, scribble on or even read. You can bury it if you want, or give it to a friend, or reverse engineer it into a tree...

Real books forever.

 

[Handley_Page]

How about the author? He's not going to get anything from the sell of his book that way, but again that's the normal used book store vs new store.

Is this something that will be a 'normal' thing in this modern electronic literary world?

Comments and suggestions?

Is this do-able even?

MST

I think it would be a good idea. The fact that the 'majors' (ie., major suppliers) would be forced to accept that there exists a very real market is but one part.
The other is the delicate PC nonsense about what constitutes " 'orrible Pornography "
(with the consequential damage to some firm's shining image). As I understand it, there have been calls upon organisations like "the Bank" [*] to be boycotted by "some upright organisation." Wasn't Amazon involved a while ago ?


[*] In England a while ago, one firm with a department using animals for research, experienced great difficulty when some very vociferous (and violent) opposition campaigned for the firms bankers to be boycotted.
It nearly worked and resulted in a High Court injunction to cease and desist some of the more extreme actions taken.
My personal view of the matter was, and is, that if two bunny rabbits give their lives so my Grandchildren can be medically treated in the event of a real problem, then get on with it.

 

[sr71plt]

From an author's perspective, the sale of "used" e-books would be no different from the sale of used print books. The author is being cheated of his/her royalty. The thinking author takes a dim view of libraries as well.

The difference between most e-books and print books, as already noted, is that, with most e-book distributors, you aren't really buying the book; you're renting it. It exists in their library, which you are given access to, and when they delete it, it's gone. If you've managed to copy it to give/sell to anyone else, you are engaging in piracy. Some distributors send you and actual copy of the e-book, though, rather than maintaining it in their system essentially for rent.

My e-books have a statement on the copyright page to the effect that the e-book copy is for the personal use of the specific buyer, so, legally, anything done with it beyond that is illegal. It would be the same if print books put that on their copyright pages, but they don't. If a used book store got a file with one of my e-books on it and resold it, they would be engaging in illegal activity.

 

[Handley_Page]

From an author's perspective, the sale of "used" e-books would be no different from the sale of used print books. The author is being cheated of his/her royalty. The thinking author takes a dim view of libraries as well.

The difference between most e-books and print books, as already noted, is that, with most e-book distributors, you aren't really buying the book; you're renting it. It exists in their library, which you are given access to, and when they delete it, it's gone. If you've managed to copy it to give/sell to anyone else, you are engaging in piracy. Some distributors send you and actual copy of the e-book, though, rather than maintaining it in their system essentially for rent.

My e-books have a statement on the copyright page to the effect that the e-book copy is for the personal use of the specific buyer, so, legally, anything done with it beyond that is illegal. It would be the same if print books put that on their copyright pages, but they don't. If a used book store got a file with one of my e-books on it and resold it, they would be engaging in illegal activity.

Sorry, Pilot, but I fail to see it. I think there are two opposing principles here.
The possibility of Royalties on any subsequent sale is not an insurmountable problem, for the majority of cases; besides, royalties will have already been paid.
The ordinary reader might well ask "why pay twice for the same product?"
I disagree with the concept of an E-book being 'loaned'.

And please forgive this, but I am amazed at anyone muttering the word "copyright" in a country where such a concept only lives in the filing cabinets of some very expensive lawyers. And, you may recall, this problem has been discussed on this 'board before now. [sorry; I could not resist that ]

 

[lovecraft68]

Guess there's a bit of a business for it and its legit

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-Ebooks...274?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35d44856ba

But of course these are not the e-books we are discussing

 

[lovecraft68]

Because of the cloud and things along the lines of do you actually ever really "own" an e-book this falls under the growing dilemma of intellectual property.

Thing is-and let's forget about actual selling- if I get an e-book what's to stop me from just sending it around?

In the past if you let someone borrow a print book you would get it back. Now you make a pdf and send it to whoever you want and always have yours.

One e-book bought can be sent to countless people. How do you know, how do you enforce it? And bottom line is who would care if you tried to?

The US is a haven for piracy this is just another extension of it.

 

[sr71plt]

Sorry, Pilot, but I fail to see it. I think there are two opposing principles here.
The possibility of Royalties on any subsequent sale is not an insurmountable problem, for the majority of cases; besides, royalties will have already been paid.
The ordinary reader might well ask "why pay twice for the same product?"
I disagree with the concept of an E-book being 'loaned'.

And please forgive this, but I am amazed at anyone muttering the word "copyright" in a country where such a concept only lives in the filing cabinets of some very expensive lawyers. And, you may recall, this problem has been discussed on this 'board before now. [sorry; I could not resist that ]

Must not be an author if you don't see it. Royalties are paid on per unit of sales. If someone has a copy/read a copy but paid you no royalties for having that copy, you've been screwed on that specific read. You most certainly have not received your royalties on the sale of that unit. That's if you actually have an author's perspective.

Doesn't matter if you disagree on the "loaned" concept of an e-book or not--that's the way that Amazon and many other distributors do it. The actual e-book exists on their server, not in your computer, and if they pull the plug, your copy is gone.

It's precious, though, that you seem to think you have a vote on that issue.

 

[PennLady]

Thing is-and let's forget about actual selling- if I get an e-book what's to stop me from just sending it around?

There are DRM restrictions, I believe. I can't just copy my book file from my Kindle and email it to you for yours and have it work. Nor, I think, can you just make PDFs and send those around. I haven't tried it, so perhaps I'm wrong, but that seems like such an easy work-around that I can't believe Amazon, et al, wouldn't have taken steps to prevent it.

In the past if you let someone borrow a print book you would get it back. Now you make a pdf and send it to whoever you want and always have yours.

This can be a problem, but it's more for music actually. There's no degradation in copying.

One e-book bought can be sent to countless people. How do you know, how do you enforce it? And bottom line is who would care if you tried to?

The US is a haven for piracy this is just another extension of it.

I don't piracy in the US comes near the levels in a place like China. But again, I don't think you're right about just being able to send any file you have. I have borrowed ebooks from the library and they are restricted -- after two weeks, I can't read them anymore.

So I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but I do think you may misunderstand how some of it works.

 

[lovecraft68]

There are DRM restrictions, I believe. I can't just copy my book file from my Kindle and email it to you for yours and have it work. Nor, I think, can you just make PDFs and send those around. I haven't tried it, so perhaps I'm wrong, but that seems like such an easy work-around that I can't believe Amazon, et al, wouldn't have taken steps to prevent it.



This can be a problem, but it's more for music actually. There's no degradation in copying.



I don't piracy in the US comes near the levels in a place like China. But again, I don't think you're right about just being able to send any file you have. I have borrowed ebooks from the library and they are restricted -- after two weeks, I can't read them anymore.

So I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but I do think you may misunderstand how some of it works.

Thing is let's say you get e-books from SW. they sell it in multiple formats. One is a simple text file. Once you have that you can go to a site like this and convert it to any form you want.

http://ebook*******-convert.com/

 

[patientlee]

Metallica won this argument with Napster.

 

[PennLady]

From an author's perspective, the sale of "used" e-books would be no different from the sale of used print books. The author is being cheated of his/her royalty. The thinking author takes a dim view of libraries as well.

I can see this view of libraries, but I'm not sure I agree. It could be argued that the benefits of providing access to information and books to those who can't buy them outweigh other concerns. Just saying it could be argued that way.

You could also argue (his has been made w/r/t music for ages) that if someone can read a book by John Smith for free, they may like him enough to go buy more of his books.

As for where the books reside, I wonder if that differs. I do have the books on my Kindle and I know that because it downloads to the Kindle and I can access the full book and read it with the wireless off. On other devices, the book downloads to the device, so again, I do have a copy that can be accessed without a wireless connection. If the books were only resident on Amazon's (or whoever's) server, then I wouldn't be able to read, or read more, without that connection. At least, that's the way it seems to work for me.

I'm not saying Amazon couldn't -- or hasn't -- put in some kind of code that would "deactivate" the book. Just saying that I do have my own copy resident on my own devices.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't delve much into the technicalities of it either--because I separate out what is legal/moral from what I'm actually going to try to do about it when/if I'm ripped off by someone only thinking of themselves.

But. I do know there's a difference in distributors and that you don't actually have a master copy of books you buy from Amazon and most of the other big distributors. What you are buying is access to that file on their server--which can go away when/if they pull a plug. On former major distributor (Books . . . something) last year had to rearrange access to "bought" books for customers when they closed shop. Those customers who didn't pursue maintaining access, lost it. And, as Penn Lady, noted, if you manage to make your own copy, you are dealing in piracy programs.

Other distributors (the smaller ones) don't bother with this system, though. They just e-mail attach you a file and you can copy it.

Legally, it doesn't depend on what you can do; it depends on what restrictions have been placed on the use by the copyright owner. Go to the copyright pages and see what they say as far as your rights to reuse. My copyright pages on e-books say it's for your personal one-copy right use only. That doesn't mean I or my publisher are going to try to track you down. But it also doesn't mean that you are engaging in legal (or moral) activity either.

And I truly can't see why on an author's forum, posters can't see the author's perspective on this sort of thing.

 

[sr71plt]

I can see this view of libraries, but I'm not sure I agree. It could be argued that the benefits of providing access to information and books to those who can't buy them outweigh other concerns. Just saying it could be argued that way.

Those benefits are why authors don't openly grumble. Everything has to be weighed. The fact that authors don't go after royalty denial in various forms (like picketing used books stores, for instance) is because the hassle of doing it has been weighed in.

That said, each library checkout is a denial of a royalty payment. And no matter how convenient and cost-saving that is to you, as the reader, if you walk up to a author, beaming, and say you checked their book out of the library and read it, and you get less than a beaming smile back, you just don't understand, are operating in reader mode, and aren't a professional author yourself.

 

[PennLady]

Thing is let's say you get e-books from SW. they sell it in multiple formats. One is a simple text file. Once you have that you can go to a site like this and convert it to any form you want.

http://ebook*******-convert.com/

That's true (I didn't know that about SW). And if that's the case and authors are concerned, they shouldn't sell at SW until SW gets rid of that option.

I was talking more specifically about Kindle books, since that's what I have most experience with.

 

[PennLady]

And I truly can't see why on an author's forum, posters can't see the author's perspective on this sort of thing.

I don't think it's that people don't or can't see the author's perspective. I do, seriously, I see what you're saying. But it is possible that people don't agree with that perspective, or don't agree entirely and have a slightly different perspective.

 

[sr71plt]

Of course they don't agree (although I don't think they are even aware of it). They want to get something as cheaply as they can--and then many of them want to badmouth an author who they functionally have stiffed for the read.

I've frequently seen posts by readers--including some from you in the past--here that haven't taken an author's perspective on this at all--have only discussed how they can get reads for free.

Well, it wasn't free for the author to provide the read. (unless they voluntarily did so, like here on Literotica--where they frequently get slammed for a freely given read.)

 

[lovecraft68]

That's true (I didn't know that about SW). And if that's the case and authors are concerned, they shouldn't sell at SW until SW gets rid of that option.

I was talking more specifically about Kindle books, since that's what I have most experience with.

Kindle I think there is a way as well. I have a kindle app(or did it expired somehow) and I thought there was a way to download the book to your pc in mobi format, but I don't remember.

All romance sells books in a pdf which of course anyone can open on pretty much nay machine and again you could send it around to anyone.

 

[Handley_Page]

Must not be an author if you don't see it. Royalties are paid on per unit of sales. If someone has a copy/read a copy but paid you no royalties for having that copy, you've been screwed on that specific read. You most certainly have not received your royalties on the sale of that unit. That's if you actually have an author's perspective.

Doesn't matter if you disagree on the "loaned" concept of an e-book or not--that's the way that Amazon and many other distributors do it. The actual e-book exists on their server, not in your computer, and if they pull the plug, your copy is gone.

It's precious, though, that you seem to think you have a vote on that issue.

As usual, Pilot you make a valid point.
However, I do understand a little of the Royalties issue as a published author (of some technical books). So I take issue with some of your modern phraseology (reserving the position of ignorance in certain matters): "Specific read."

I got paid some "Royalties" by the duly accredited publisher when the book went into print. As far as I see it, I got paid, regardless of the number of readers of any particular printed copy. The publisher has no specific control over what happens after the printed copy leaves the store (or even his warehouse) so I cannot see what anyone can really do with an e-book after it has left the publisher's server to the customer. To my mind, that's the end of the transaction.

To my mind, if I buy (note that word, please, for a moment), as in purchase [*], I have completed a particular transaction, that is, legally completed by the giving and receiving of payment of money or other dues acceptable to the parties involved and the Law.


PS.
Yes, I realise that what I say or think is unlikely to influence many readers. But I reserve the right to express a view.
I presume that it what you mean by the expression 'precious'. Please forgive my lack of understanding Americana and its language.



[*] Purchase
5 Law. The acquisition of property by personal action and not by inheritance or descent.
6 spec. a Acquisition by payment of money or some other valuable equivalent; the action or an act of buying.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from Oxford Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1998 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

 

[sr71plt]

I got paid some "Royalties" by the publisher when the book went into print. As far as I see it, I got paid, regardless of the number of readers of any particular printed copy.

You may have gotten paid something, but royalties are the author's cut of a unit of sale.

More significantly than looking at this from an author's perspective is looking at it from the publishing house perspective (where I've spent most of my publishing experience). When they set a royalties deal, it is based on the record of per unit sales. From their perspective then they set out to take the very limited view of what they owe the author after that first flurry of money crossing palms before you settle down to ongoing pay out being set on that per unit of sales basis (as recorded--you also are fiddling with what gets recorded).

My "precious" refers to your thinking you can deny the actual practice of what is happening just because it suits you. (referring to the "loan" as opposed to the "own and can do anything you want with it" concepts in the Amazon e-book market model). What Amazon does is what it's doing--and you can't freely do what you want with that e-book you "bought" either legally or functionally (without engaging in illegal activity).

 

[Handley_Page]

You may have gotten paid something, but royalties are the author's cut of a unit of sale.

More significantly than looking at this from an author's perspective is looking at it from the publishing house perspective (where I've spent most of my publishing experience). When they set a royalties deal, it is based on the record of per unit sales. From their perspective then they set out to take the very limited view of what they owe the author after that first flurry of money crossing palms before you settle down to ongoing pay out being set on that per unit of sales basis (as recorded--you also are fiddling with what gets recorded).

My "precious" refers to your thinking you can deny the actual practice of what is happening just because it suits you. (referring to the "loan" as opposed to the "own and can do anything you want with it" concepts in the Amazon e-book market model). What Amazon does is what it's doing--and you can't freely do what you want with that e-book you "bought" either legally or functionally (without engaging in illegal activity).

Thank you.
The payments were "royalties" as in your own definition.
And what you describe Amazon as doing is the very reason I don't buy e-books.
It's my own personal boycott. To my mind, e-books should be treated the same way as printed copies.

 

[lovecraft68]

publishers clearing house (where I've spent most of my publishing experience)

Fixed that for you.

Nothing you're coming up with is insider information its basic information and common sense.

But the conversation isn't about the author being screwed(which they are) its what the legality stands on the gray area of digital product and beyond that who is ever going to enforce it and how.

 

[lovecraft68]

I remember back when unsold paperbacks used to have the covers ripped off them so they could not be resold-or resold legally- I sued to buy them for a dime at a local store.

Back in the 3day news stands could get credit unsold comic books and magazines, but would have to rip the top part of the cover off and send them back so they could not be resold. That's part of high complete copies of very early comics are hard to fin.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

And how? You pay them, download it off their e-reader with a program that wipes it off their's afterwards? Unless you took a magnet to their 'kindle' any half decent computer hack could recover that wiped data


MST

There are programs out there that will use the government standards of deleting a file. Write over the 1 and 0 stored on the disc, flash memory, whatever.

Standard deletion is to just change the first character of the file name to a '?' mark. Overwriting the file will destroy the data.

 

[PennLady]

I've frequently seen posts by readers--including some from you in the past--here that haven't taken an author's perspective on this at all--have only discussed how they can get reads for free.

Well, it wasn't free for the author to provide the read. (unless they voluntarily did so, like here on Literotica--where they frequently get slammed for a freely given read.)

Since I am both a reader and an author, I can see both sides. I appreciate it when books are provided for free. I wish I could then pay for more, but my funds are limited. I may take a reader's perspective sometimes, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the author's perspective as well. And of course, many times they clash.

No it wasn't free. I get that. Writing takes time, if nothing else, and time is valuable and hard to put a price on. I know that not just from writing, but from a long time ago when I would crochet items and sell them. It was hard to know what to charge. So it is, in a way, with writing. Sometimes it just flows and feels like fun, but you should get paid for you time.

I've had this argument with my brother about music, or used to, and occasionally my son. If someone is going to produce something, why should they give it away? I ask. And of course, at least my son's answer is, because he doesn't want to pay for it. Well, tough luck, kid.

However if an author or musician or whatever is going to offer something for free, I don't think you can slam people for taking advantage of it.

Kindle I think there is a way as well. I have a kindle app(or did it expired somehow) and I thought there was a way to download the book to your pc in mobi format, but I don't remember.

All romance sells books in a pdf which of course anyone can open on pretty much nay machine and again you could send it around to anyone.

ARE may put restrictions on the PDF file, since you can do that. I'm not sure if you can prevent someone else from opening the file, though. Just saying. And again, you can download files from your Kindle to a computer, but there could be DRM restrictions. I'm sure people can get around those if they know how, but I wouldn't know how and I wouldn't try.