A Simple Solution to Chapters

[SimonDoom]

Just had a quick chat with Laurel, and here's what's actually in the works with regards to series and toplists.

When the series feature launches ( including author directed management of series, and removing the currently buggy automatic creation of series ) it will also come with a series "card". For an example of what it will look like, check out the new tags portal. The listings there are story "cards". It will show the series title, the number of chapters, stats for the series, etc., and link to the series page for the story, where more information will be available, and links to every chapter.

That card is what will be displayed on the toplist. It will occupy a single spot for the entire series. As far as ranking goes, they've decided to use the highest scoring chapter as the ranking criteria.

There are plenty of "yeah, buts" with regards to ranking, troll/cheerleader manipulation/etc. but it solves the largest issue in my opinion. Readers will have more to choose from, and more authors/stories will be represented.

From a coding standpoint, using the highest ranking chapter simplifies everything. I still like an aggregate, but can't say I wouldn't make the same choice when doing a cost/benefit analysis if I was the one who had to put in the work. LOL

Thanks for checking up on this and giving the report.

I think this is great. If I had to choose I'd rather see the mean score for the whole series count than the top-rated chapter, but as a practical matter this solves 95% of the current problem. And the nice thing for authors of long chaptered-stories who might feel cheated by a switch to an aggregate/mean system is they'll get the benefit of their highest-rated chapter. This is going to tremendously open up the toplists to a lot more stories and a lot more authors. It will add value for authors and readers alike.

 

[RejectReality]

That sounds like a reasonable way to do it.

I do think it's fair to use the highest scoring chapter rather than an aggregate, because it is not fair to assume that that particular chapter only got a higher rating because it comes late in the series. I would like to think I became a better writer as I gained experience, and I am sure that it true of others as well.

It's not just the score that people are referencing when it comes to this. You also see your views, number of votes, and everything else decline. That's where the generally accepted wisdom comes from.

The final chapter can be something of an anomaly. There appear to be a fair number of readers who don't vote until the final chapter. I tend to use Lowborn as my standard, because it posted consistently twice a week for the entire run, eliminating some variables.

From a year old track:

A general, slow decline in all the numbers while the score rises due to people who don't enjoy it falling by the wayside. Then at the end, you get that crop of folks who only vote on complete stories.

I also typically see a boost in views for final chapters after they've been up for a while. My assumption there is that people are looking at the last posted chapter to see if the story is complete before bothering to start it.

 

[LexxRuthless]

Just had a quick chat with Laurel, and here's what's actually in the works with regards to series and toplists.

When the series feature launches ( including author directed management of series, and removing the currently buggy automatic creation of series ) it will also come with a series "card". For an example of what it will look like, check out the new tags portal. The listings there are story "cards". It will show the series title, the number of chapters, stats for the series, etc., and link to the series page for the story, where more information will be available, and links to every chapter.

That card is what will be displayed on the toplist. It will occupy a single spot for the entire series. As far as ranking goes, they've decided to use the highest scoring chapter as the ranking criteria.

There are plenty of "yeah, buts" with regards to ranking, troll/cheerleader manipulation/etc. but it solves the largest issue in my opinion. Readers will have more to choose from, and more authors/stories will be represented.

From a coding standpoint, using the highest ranking chapter simplifies everything. I still like an aggregate, but can't say I wouldn't make the same choice when doing a cost/benefit analysis if I was the one who had to put in the work. LOL

That is pretty awesome. I'm pleased to see that something is being done. The one thing I wonder is how this will work when a series occupies multiple categories. Will the series card and highest scoring chapter be applied to every category in which chapters are posted?

 

[Bramblethorn]

That card is what will be displayed on the toplist. It will occupy a single spot for the entire series. As far as ranking goes, they've decided to use the highest scoring chapter as the ranking criteria.

There are plenty of "yeah, buts" with regards to ranking, troll/cheerleader manipulation/etc. but it solves the largest issue in my opinion. Readers will have more to choose from, and more authors/stories will be represented.

From a coding standpoint, using the highest ranking chapter simplifies everything. I still like an aggregate, but can't say I wouldn't make the same choice when doing a cost/benefit analysis if I was the one who had to put in the work. LOL

Yeah, fair. I'd be tempted to take the average of highest and lowest chapter, but either way it's an improvement.

 

[RejectReality]

That is pretty awesome. I'm pleased to see that something is being done. The one thing I wonder is how this will work when a series occupies multiple categories. Will the series card and highest scoring chapter be applied to every category in which chapters are posted?

If I reverse engineer how the toplists are generated, I would assume that category crossing stories that have scores high enough to qualify for the toplist in multiple categories would indeed show up in each of those categories. Whatever the highest scoring chapter of the story in that category is, it would determine ranking placement.

The overall toplist for all categories would show only one card for the story, no matter how many categories it crosses, using the highest score of any chapter, regardless of category, as the ranking placement.

That's the simple solution, and thus the likely one. It might seem like an advantage for multi-category stories, but they have such significant downsides that I don't think it tips those scales back into balance. Never mind a genuine boost.

 

[RejectReality]

Keep in mind that the series feature is a massive undertaking. This is not going to happen any time soon.

Out of everything they're working on for the updated site, that's probably the most complicated feature they're adding. Maybe a tie with the point-and-click editing process.

 

[NotWise]

That sounds like a reasonable way to do it.

I do think it's fair to use the highest scoring chapter rather than an aggregate, because it is not fair to assume that that particular chapter only got a higher rating because it comes late in the series. I would like to think I became a better writer as I gained experience, and I am sure that it true of others as well.

I agree with using the high score, too. If they used an aggregate, then I expect a lot of stories would simply disappear from the top lists, or be relegated to back pages. Using the high score keeps all of the stories on the toplist that are currently there, and just de-lists the lower-ranking chapters.

It also means that if the highest-rated story gets bombed, the story could still be listed because of another highly-rated chapter. In some cases that wouldn't even move the story's position on the list.

 

[GinnyPPC]

Will there be an option for an author to mark the series as complete? As a reader, it is nice to know if when looking a series to get into if the author will provide you with a conclusion or not.

I often hunt through the pick a random story section to find something new and it is not always clear from looking at the author's profile is a series is done or not. If a series is not marked complete and there are recent postings to it, you can probably assume that it is still being worked on. But if the last posting was a few years ago and it is not marked complete, it might be an abandoned story.

 

[RejectReality]

Will there be an option for an author to mark the series as complete? As a reader, it is nice to know if when looking a series to get into if the author will provide you with a conclusion or not.

I often hunt through the pick a random story section to find something new and it is not always clear from looking at the author's profile is a series is done or not. If a series is not marked complete and there are recent postings to it, you can probably assume that it is still being worked on. But if the last posting was a few years ago and it is not marked complete, it might be an abandoned story.

That's something that's more or less going to have to be done in order to implement the stated goal of only having complete stories eligible for monthly/annual awards, so it's likely part of the planning for the series feature.

 

[GinnyPPC]

That's something that's more or less going to have to be done in order to implement the stated goal of only having complete stories eligible for monthly/annual awards, so it's likely part of the planning for the series feature.

Cool thanks for sharing this info.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Will there be an option for an author to mark the series as complete? As a reader, it is nice to know if when looking a series to get into if the author will provide you with a conclusion or not.

I often hunt through the pick a random story section to find something new and it is not always clear from looking at the author's profile is a series is done or not. If a series is not marked complete and there are recent postings to it, you can probably assume that it is still being worked on. But if the last posting was a few years ago and it is not marked complete, it might be an abandoned story.

Something else that would be beneficial for writers and readers alike would be for the submission process to be modified to allow for all chapters/parts of a completed story to be submitted and posted together.

A couple of check boxes added for the author to tell the admins that one, the story is complete, and two, to upload all the parts in one submission.

I could understand the vetting and review process for something like this taking longer, but it would be worth it to provide everyone with closure on a completed story.

I also agree with Ginny: Incomplete stories should be tagged in some way. Other sites do this all the time.

 

[LexxRuthless]

Something else that would be beneficial for writers and readers alike would be for the submission process to be modified to allow for all chapters/parts of a completed story to be submitted and posted together.

A couple of check boxes added for the author to tell the admins that one, the story is complete, and two, to upload all the parts in one submission.

I could understand the vetting and review process for something like this taking longer, but it would be worth it to provide everyone with closure on a completed story.

I also agree with Ginny: Incomplete stories should be tagged in some way. Other sites do this all the time.

As it is now, you can submit all the chapters of a completed series on the same day. The site intentionally spaces out their publication a day apart to increase the time the series will remain on the category's front page, and thus give your story more exposure. This also prevents an author putting out, say, a 24-chapter story on one day and pushing everyone else off of that front page. You can always use the title or story description to tell readers when that last chapter is the finale.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

As it is now, you can submit all the chapters of a completed series on the same day. The site intentionally spaces out their publication a day apart to increase the time the series will remain on the category's front page, and thus give your story more exposure. This also prevents an author putting out, say, a 24-chapter story on one day and pushing everyone else off of that front page. You can always use the title or story description to tell readers when that last chapter is the finale.

Yes, a story can be submitted all in one day, but with the way that the system currently works, there is no indication for readers how many parts or chapters they can expect or if the story is completed before they waste time on it.

As subsequent submissions get posted, the listing changes to "Title: 2 Part Series". This will increment as each new part is posted, again, with no one being able to distinguish when the end is in sight. SOL and Inkitt, just to name a couple, are websites that allow the writer to inform readers whether or not the story they are looking to read is a work in progress or complete.

I try to write stories that people don't want to put down once they start reading. The time that they have to wait for the next part or chapter to get posted is one of the most common complaints voiced by readers in their comments, and it only happens for me on Literotica.

I understand that many others chose to dribble their stories out a bit at a time, while I always make sure mine are complete before submitting. Different strokes and all.

My interest with this particular discussion is in the usability of the system for readers and writers and not with where a story lands on some top list or how parts of a story get scored. If a writer wants to extend the exposure of their story, they can submit the parts individually any time that they want. If a writer wants to get their story out in its entirety to minimize reader complaints, they should be able to.

 

[RejectReality]

That's easily remedied with an author's note on chapter 1. Such notations are also something that's becoming more common, understood, and accepted by readers. Tell them the story is complete, how many chapters it is, and how often you plan to post new chapters, the queue willing.

I've never used SOLs scheduling, but doesn't it keep the "in progress" label and increment the same way until the last chapter posts, even if you have an entire story in the queue? There's no more information there until the last chapter posts, unless you provide it in advance via a blog post or something.

The complete label is certainly something we need. Sure, your readers are used to you following through, but new readers have to take a chance on you to discover that. A page full of series with complete labels takes the guesswork out of that. Like I said earlier, it's more or less a necessity in order to achieve one of the goals — eliminating individual chapters contending in the monthly/annual awards against complete stories.

Yes, a story can be submitted all in one day, but with the way that the system currently works, there is no indication for readers how many parts or chapters they can expect or if the story is completed before they waste time on it.

As subsequent submissions get posted, the listing changes to "Title: 2 Part Series". This will increment as each new part is posted, again, with no one being able to distinguish when the end is in sight. SOL and Inkitt, just to name a couple, are websites that allow the writer to inform readers whether or not the story they are looking to read is a work in progress or complete.

I try to write stories that people don't want to put down once they start reading. The time that they have to wait for the next part or chapter to get posted is one of the most common complaints voiced by readers in their comments, and it only happens for me on Literotica.

I understand that many others chose to dribble their stories out a bit at a time, while I always make sure mine are complete before submitting. Different strokes and all.

My interest with this particular discussion is in the usability of the system for readers and writers and not with where a story lands on some top list or how parts of a story get scored. If a writer wants to extend the exposure of their story, they can submit the parts individually any time that they want. If a writer wants to get their story out in its entirety to minimize reader complaints, they should be able to.

 

[MelissaBaby]

It's not just the score that people are referencing when it comes to this. You also see your views, number of votes, and everything else decline. That's where the generally accepted wisdom comes from.

The final chapter can be something of an anomaly. There appear to be a fair number of readers who don't vote until the final chapter. I tend to use Lowborn as my standard, because it posted consistently twice a week for the entire run, eliminating some variables.

From a year old track:

A general, slow decline in all the numbers while the score rises due to people who don't enjoy it falling by the wayside. Then at the end, you get that crop of folks who only vote on complete stories.

I also typically see a boost in views for final chapters after they've been up for a while. My assumption there is that people are looking at the last posted chapter to see if the story is complete before bothering to start it.

I was surprised at how many comments I got from people who read the last chapter and said, "This is the first story of yours I read, I'm going to go back and start at the beginning now."

 

[MColton84]

I was surprised at how many comments I got from people who read the last chapter and said, "This is the first story of yours I read, I'm going to go back and start at the beginning now."

I struggle with that too. I'll either have the last chapter rated really high where the first chapter got no attention, or vice versa.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Also to the writer, it's not always clear if a series has ended. Sometimes it feels like it, but later you may find out that there's much more to add to it.

As an example, my first story was never intended to be the first chapter of a series. Only after readers asked for it, I decided I could add two more chapters. And then, a bit later, with me being some experiences richer, I decided to include those new experiences into that 'already completed' series.

That's why the description of the last chapter of Mary and Alvin is simply, "The conclusion." Anything that helps clarify if the series is finished or not would be helpful.

When I decided to return to the same characters for my Christmas contest entry, I submitted it as a stand alone with a title that made the connection clear, while writing it in such a way that new readers could (hopefully) appreciate it without having read the whole saga.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I struggle with that too. I'll either have the last chapter rated really high where the first chapter got no attention, or vice versa.

If the readers enjoyed the final chapter on its own, that's wonderful, and I am very grateful that they did. But jeezum crow, it was the culmination of three years of themes and motifs and made dozens of references to past events.

Who knows, maybe it works better that way. Maybe as they go back to the beginning they will pick up on things they might not have otherwise.

 

[Candy_Kane54]

If the readers enjoyed the final chapter on its own, that's wonderful, and I am very grateful that they did. But jeezum crow, it was the culmination of three years of themes and motifs and made dozens of references to past events.

Who knows, maybe it works better that way. Maybe as they go back to the beginning they will pick up on things they might not have otherwise.

Back in the day, I read Piers Anthony's "Man and Manta' trilogy: Omnivore, Orn, and 0X in reverse order and I loved it. To this day, I still think it reads better backwards than forward.

 

[MColton84]

Back in the day, I read Piers Anthony's "Man and Manta' trilogy: Omnivore, Orn, and 0X in reverse order and I loved it. To this day, I still think it reads better backwards than forward.

That's an idea. Writing a series in reverse, starting from the conclusion and working your way to the beginning. I imagine it's been done, but it also seems like a fun original premise.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

That's easily remedied with an author's note on chapter 1. Such notations are also something that's becoming more common, understood, and accepted by readers. Tell them the story is complete, how many chapters it is, and how often you plan to post new chapters, the queue willing.

Author comments at the beginning are virtually useless. Readers are so accustomed to these being acknowledgements to editors or solicitations for feedback that they pay them very little attention.

I can place a notification at the beginning that states the story is complete and has been submitted in multiple chapters of parts, but I cannot tell readers how long it will take for them to have access to the complete story.

In addition, your idea still places the burden upon the reader to open a story that they may or may not be interested in, simply to determine if it is complete or a work in progress. They should be able to see this in the same way that they can see the current rating and number of views a story has received.

 

[RejectReality]

I did say it was something we needed, and more or less inevitable to complete the stated mission.

I think you're mistaken on readers not paying attention to author's notes. They're regularly used in situations such as this and for content warnings, and in my experience, they work in both cases.

Author comments at the beginning are virtually useless. Readers are so accustomed to these being acknowledgements to editors or solicitations for feedback that they pay them very little attention.

I can place a notification at the beginning that states the story is complete and has been submitted in multiple chapters of parts, but I cannot tell readers how long it will take for them to have access to the complete story.

In addition, your idea still places the burden upon the reader to open a story that they may or may not be interested in, simply to determine if it is complete or a work in progress. They should be able to see this in the same way that they can see the current rating and number of views a story has received.

 

[KeithD]

I can place a notification at the beginning that states the story is complete and has been submitted in multiple chapters of parts, but I cannot tell readers how long it will take for them to have access to the complete story.

I can and do and have always been within the ballpark. I've finished the work before I start posting it. I have a very steady "posted two or three days after submitted" pattern. I can pin down very closing what week my series will finish posting. I include that information in an author's note on the first chapter posted of a chapter series. I haven't been wrong yet.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I was surprised at how many comments I got from people who read the last chapter and said, "This is the first story of yours I read, I'm going to go back and start at the beginning now."

Pshaw. Everybody knows the correct way to read My Fall and Rise is even-numbered chapters first, then odd-numbered. That way everything happens in order.

I think you're mistaken on readers not paying attention to author's notes. They're regularly used in situations such as this and for content warnings, and in my experience, they work in both cases.

Seconded.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I can and do and have always been within the ballpark. I've finished the work before I start posting it. I have a very steady "posted two or three days after submitted" pattern. I can pin down very closing what week my series will finish posting. I include that information in an author's note on the first chapter posted of a chapter series. I haven't been wrong yet.

True, you can ballpark it. All things being perfect, you could expect fourteen submissions being entered the same day to be posted one after another for fourteen days, but that isn't how things work in the real world that we know as Literotica. Weekend days throw a big variable into the mix, as do contests and other factors that take priority in the review and approval of submissions.

And again, you have to trust that the readers will read the author's note.