A Simple Solution to Chapters

[SimonDoom]

Nothing that had never made the toplist is going to pop up from aggregation.

I don't follow this. If Ch. 1 has a 4, and every subsequent chapter has a 4.8, then with the addition of each new chapter the aggregate score of the series will gradually rise.

Even aggregated, chapter stories will still have an advantage in that they'll be much harder to 1-bomb down the listings.

But most bombing happens immediately after a story/chapter is published. So every time a new chapter is published there's a new opportunity for bombing, so I'm not sure this is true.

Does anyone know if it would be DIFFICULT to set up the stories and toplists so scores are averaged over the entire series? I don't know whether that would be difficult for the site to do.

It makes more sense to me to have one toplist per category rather than separate toplists for single stories and chapter stories, because having separate toplists just complicates things and makes it harder for readers to find what they want.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Some clarification, please

On this thread, I have seen the term "series" used in multiple contexts.

To me, a series would be a collection of individual stories following a common premise or theme (the Fifty Shades stories are an example). They are each stand-alone tales that share commonality, and may be in sequence, but they are all unique. (my "Before they were stars" series is an example of this)

A long story broken into and submitted in chapters or parts does not constitute a "series", even if the story that the chapters and parts relate to are part of a series. (my stories in the Brandt Family series are examples of this).

Is this how other see things?

 

[SimonDoom]

On this thread, I have seen the term "series" used in multiple contexts.

To me, a series would be a collection of individual stories following a common premise or theme (the Fifty Shades stories are an example). They are each stand-alone tales that share commonality, and may be in sequence, but they are all unique. (my "Before they were stars" series is an example of this)

A long story broken into and submitted in chapters or parts does not constitute a "series", even if the story that the chapters and parts relate to are part of a series. (my stories in the Brandt Family series are examples of this).

Is this how other see things?

No. The sole distinction for purposes of this discussion, whether one uses the term series or chapter, is whether a story is published in the form of multiple chapters that are indicated by something like "Story: Ch. 1, Story Ch. 2." For purposes of this discussion it makes no difference whether the chapters make up standalone stories or are all part of a continuous story. It's all the same when it comes to how they show up on a top list.

 

[LexxRuthless]

On this thread, I have seen the term "series" used in multiple contexts.

To me, a series would be a collection of individual stories following a common premise or theme (the Fifty Shades stories are an example). They are each stand-alone tales that share commonality, and may be in sequence, but they are all unique. (my "Before they were stars" series is an example of this)

A long story broken into and submitted in chapters or parts does not constitute a "series", even if the story that the chapters and parts relate to are part of a series. (my stories in the Brandt Family series are examples of this).

Is this how other see things?

On this site, we generally misuse the term. It would be more accurate to refer to them as "serial" or "serialized" stories, but the term "series" is utilized by the site to refer to any story that is continued with a common title and "Chapter" or "Part" denoting subsequent continuations of the story. So, yes, you are technically correct.

For purposes of this discussion, we are trying to consider alternatives that will help the various top lists and Halls of Fame accurately reflect the best work in each category. What has happened for a very long time is that some categories became dominated by later chapters from ongoing "series" to the extent that the entire Hall of Fame for several categories include nothing else.

 

[Emirus]

Ideas which will never happen

There are good ideas, bad ideas and ideas which make you wonder whether the writer’s brain had gone for a walk at the time but, no matter how many times this is discussed, they will never come to fruition because they are not important to Laurel and Manu. Which is fair enough because it is their site.

First of all I would state my interest in top lists is zero because I’ll never have a story featured and the only time I’ve looked at a list is when a friend said they’d got a couple of stories in. Which have in the last year, like many other stories, gone up and down like yo-yos.

I do think separate top lists for series and stand alone stories would be a good idea. Personally I don’t go by the top lists for recommendations but one thing that does put me off is seeing umpteen chapters of one story. If I’m reading a series I want to be in at the start, certainly within the first 2/3 chapters. I don’t want to come in at chapter 12 and then go back to 1 to begin.

Alternatively the top lists could remain as they are but, in the case of a series, only the chapter with the highest score would be shown on the list.

Something more important to me would be to separate Non Consent and Reluctance. They should be two entirely separate categories.

I’m in the middle of writing my first series story and one thing I will be doing is putting all the chapters in the same category even if they vary a little in content.

 

[8letters]

On this site, we generally misuse the term. It would be more accurate to refer to them as "serial" or "serialized" stories, but the term "series" is utilized by the site to refer to any story that is continued with a common title and "Chapter" or "Part" denoting subsequent continuations of the story. So, yes, you are technically correct.

For purposes of this discussion, we are trying to consider alternatives that will help the various top lists and Halls of Fame accurately reflect the best work in each category. What has happened for a very long time is that some categories became dominated by later chapters from ongoing "series" to the extent that the entire Hall of Fame for several categories include nothing else.

As someone who has done this, it's very hard to determine what are chapters in a story. Yeah, a lot of stories are "A Week At The Lake Ch 01", "A Week At The Lake Ch 02", etc. Sometimes it's "A Week At The Lake Pt 01", "A Week At The Lake Pt 02", etc. But sometimes it's "A Week At The Lake Saturday", "A Week At The Lake Sunday", etc. Sometimes it's "The Lake Cabin - Judy Visits", "The Lake Cabin - Adam Goes Home", etc. Or "Judy Visits the Lake Cabin", "Adam Goes Home from the Lake Cabin", etc. Sometimes it's "Judy Visits", "Judy Visits Again", "Another Visit From Judy". Another option is "Judy Visits London", "Judy Visits Paris", "Judy Visits Rome", etc.

Going back to what BobbyBrandt mentioned, is "Judy Visits London", "Judy Visits Paris" and "Judy Visits Rome" a series if the only commonality between them is Judy?

It would be great if when you posted a story, you could say if this is a follow on to another posted story and what story it was. That would clean up a lot of author's submission pages where the software guesses what are series and gets it wrong. But if Literotica started that tomorrow, that would leave a huge number of stories unclassified. And what if the author doesn't identify "A Week At The Lake Ch 02" as a follow on to "A Week At The Lake Ch 01"?

 

[BobbyBrandt]

There's a legitimate complaint about the toplists. They're utterly dominated by later chapters of long stories, and that's a disservice to readers and authors alike. It's also fundamentally unfair for a piece of a story to be competing with complete stories.

The key is not to punish people for writing multi-chapter stories, as the original suggestion of the thread certainly does. The goal should be to level the playing field where it's a problem.

Comparing a series of stories with a common element to a single story with multiple chapters or parts is like comparing apples and fire trucks. Until a distinction is made between the two, this is just a silly exercise in complaining about the color red.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Doubtful. The early chapters are almost always going to pull down an aggregate score. More votes + lower score virtually assures them having sufficient weight to do so. Nothing that had never made the toplist is going to pop up from aggregation.

I don't follow this. If Ch. 1 has a 4, and every subsequent chapter has a 4.8, then with the addition of each new chapter the aggregate score of the series will gradually rise.

I think RR's point here is that the aggregate will always be lower than 4.8. If the chapters keep on scoring 4.8s, the aggregate will increase asymptotically towards 4.8 but never quite get there. The aggregate can never outperform the best individual chapter.

It is in fact possible that this change would put a bunch of series onto the toplist that wouldn't otherwise have made it, but not by elevating their scores. Rather, by preventing one series from appearing repeatedly in the list, you free up a bunch of slots for other stories, some of which will be series.

If anything, I think restricting the lists to one entry per series - whether by aggregate or best chapter - would be good for serial stories too. I'd rather have a top list that features a hundred different series, than one that features a hundred chapters from one series.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Bramblethorn had the best idea, imo, having separate series and individual story lists.

(FWIW, I pinched it from a bunch of others who've been suggesting it for a while.)

 

[Bramblethorn]

A long story broken into and submitted in chapters or parts does not constitute a "series", even if the story that the chapters and parts relate to are part of a series. (my stories in the Brandt Family series are examples of this).

Is this how other see things?

Nope. In this thread we're specifically talking about chapter stories. But in general use, "series" can mean any storytelling in several parts, including both the styles you mention and many grey areas in between.

The Simpsons is a TV series of the first kind - each episode is within the same setting, but it stands alone, and with a very few exceptions the order of watching doesn't matter in the slightest.

At the other end, something like The Night Manager is a single story broken into multiple parts, and the parts aren't complete stories on their own. You'd need to watch the whole thing, in order, to get a complete and satisfying story. It's still considered a "series".

In between there are a lot of shows structured like Life on Mars/Ashes to Ashes, where each episode has a mostly-self-contained story but also feeds in a little towards a longer plot that might take years to run. Still a "series" (or in that case, arguably a series of two series).

In print publishing, you'll see Martin's Ice and Fire books referred to as "a series of novels", and so on.

 

[PennameWombat]

I think RR's point here is that the aggregate will always be lower than 4.8. If the chapters keep on scoring 4.8s, the aggregate will increase asymptotically towards 4.8 but never quite get there. The aggregate can never outperform the best individual chapter.

It is in fact possible that this change would put a bunch of series onto the toplist that wouldn't otherwise have made it, but not by elevating their scores. Rather, by preventing one series from appearing repeatedly in the list, you free up a bunch of slots for other stories, some of which will be series.

If anything, I think restricting the lists to one entry per series - whether by aggregate or best chapter - would be good for serial stories too. I'd rather have a top list that features a hundred different series, than one that features a hundred chapters from one series.

Not to quote myself, but doing it here. From what I saw, I am not meaning to pick on Tefler (keeping a series going like that is WORK, I'm in awe), it's just that series is so clear an example. Its latest chapters are heavily weighted toward 4.90 or so ratings and cover the toplist heavily, but because the early chapters were lower (chapter 1 was 4.69) the aggregate is lower than the latest. Because of that, as Bramblethorn points out, the aggregate will never match the highest individual chapter or possibly chapters.

Before I saw this thread I'd paid exactly zero attention to the top lists. Looking at SciFi then, this is also my first exposure to Tefler's work. Since I have a spreadsheet and I'm not afraid to use it, the 'Three Square Meals' chapters in the toplist are 4.90+ (25 of the 135 and counting). Averaging across all chapters would drop that to [aggregate] 4.87. So it's half the first 50 SF&F top list.

RipperFish's "Upon a Savage Shore" would drop to aggregate 4.84, from a high of 4.91. But it seems long idle, so picking something more active (but claimed to be finished recently) "Fourth Vector" is at aggregate 4.85, it currently has six chapters at 4.90+.
<snip>

I can't comment on how I'd vote on any of these, as I've not read them. Voting in isolation on (for example) chapter 121 of "Three Square Meals" isn't fair as it's clearly a single, ongoing work, and when I did read chapters 1 and 2 I found the story is not my personal cup o' tea even as an SF&F fan. So I didn't vote at all but it also failed to inspire me to pursue any of the rest. But that story has found its fans and that's a great thing, for the author and for the fans.

But that means anyone reading and voting on chapters 25, 50 or 100 and up is a fan.

 

[MelissaBaby]

So...looking at the Top List for Romance. I have a series with, I believe, 25 chapters in the top 250. The highest ranked is #74. It seems to me that a reader is far more likely to check out a series that has multiple entries in the top list, than one that appears only once, if that one time is not in the top 10 or 20.

My best interest seems to be served by the current system. Am I wrong?

 

[LexxRuthless]

So...looking at the Top List for Romance. I have a series with, I believe, 25 chapters in the top 250. The highest ranked is #74. It seems to me that a reader is far more likely to check out a series that has multiple entries in the top list, than one that appears only once, if that one time is not in the top 10 or 20.

My best interest seems to be served by the current system. Am I wrong?

Romance is a category that would not be affected nearly as much, since the top stories in that category are not ALL from series. You are probably correct in that your series would lose some views in any of the proposed new systems, whether that is weighted average scores, separate listings for series, or moving later chapters to Novels & Novellas.

One of the issues I have had is with the way some authors have abused this system to draw additional views to their stories. Hell, I did it early on, without being aware I did so. The first thing I wrote and submitted to the site was a series called Spinal Meningitis Is No Joke. The first three chapters were published in Erotic Couplings. The fourth appeared in Anal. At that point, because I was submitting them close together, some readers were already following it and immediately gave my fourth chapter 5-star ratings. That propelled it near the top of the Hall of Fame for that category, and it put a "Hot" anal story on that front page for a while. It certainly earned my first series a LOT of extra views.

Under the system I proposed, that fourth chapter would have gone into Novels & Novellas instead. It would have received about the same attention there as the previous chapters. I would not have unfairly bumped other stories out of the Anal Hall of Fame. So, the change I proposed isn't in my best interest either. I just thought it would be interesting to see if other clever people in this forum could come up with suggestions that might actually make it work.

 

[Bramblethorn]

So...looking at the Top List for Romance. I have a series with, I believe, 25 chapters in the top 250. The highest ranked is #74. It seems to me that a reader is far more likely to check out a series that has multiple entries in the top list, than one that appears only once, if that one time is not in the top 10 or 20.

My best interest seems to be served by the current system. Am I wrong?

Hard to say there. Many of the stories ahead of you in that list are also chapters, and I suspect a lot of them would drop down significantly if the rating was based on e.g. averaged scores over the series - if the only one in the toplist is Chapter 6, it's pretty likely that chapters 1-6 all averaged won't score nearly so well. You have quite a lot of chapters all scoring well there, so I expect your average would still be pretty good; you'd likely move up quite a few places, but not into the top 20.

On the other side of the balance - I can't speak for other readers, but for me, seeing a large number of chapters from a single series is actually a bit of a deterrent. I'm aware of the filtering effect that benefits long series - I've benefited from it myself - so when I see a lot of late-numbered chapters in a top list, my first reaction is not "gosh that must be a good story" but "yeah that's what I expect for a long story". Followed by reactions like "gosh that would be a lot to read!" and "yeah I already SAW that story five times, what else is there?"

I have no idea whether that's a common set of reactions, but if it is, those multiple places in the toplist might not be helping you so much.

You're also in a bit of an unusual situation in having a 36-part series in a category where long series aren't the norm. If more writers in Romance started doing the same, I suspect you'd see your rankings sliding down.

 

[SisterJezabel]

Whilst this is a regular discussion, I think it's important for people to be able to air their views. As a reader, I get frustrated when I'm looking for something to read and the top lists are all Jack does Jerusalem ch 58 and the like. I tend to write longer stories (5+ Lit pages) and have thought about splitting some and making them multi-chapter, but I also know as a reader that I get frustrated when I get to the end of chapter 1 and chapter 2 isn't released for a week or so and I've forgotten about chapter 1 already! That's just my personal preference. There are a couple of series that I've read that have veered off a cliff towards the end- one isn't finished and I no longer really care if it is or not because it's just become so OTT.

I would say though, that for the special competitions I believe all characters should be unique for the competition. I've read one or two entries in past competitions that have been characters from a series and I haven't read the series so I don't necessarily get all the backstory and inferences that others do. In this way, I suspect my score would be totally different from those who have read all of the series and get the stand-alone better than I do.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I would say though, that for the special competitions I believe all characters should be unique for the competition. I've read one or two entries in past competitions that have been characters from a series and I haven't read the series so I don't necessarily get all the backstory and inferences that others do. In this way, I suspect my score would be totally different from those who have read all of the series and get the stand-alone better than I do.

Perhaps that already gives authors an incentive not to do that? If the story doesn't adequately stand alone, that's going to hurt it in the voting.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Whilst this is a regular discussion, I think it's important for people to be able to air their views. As a reader, I get frustrated when I'm looking for something to read and the top lists are all Jack does Jerusalem ch 58 and the like. I tend to write longer stories (5+ Lit pages) and have thought about splitting some and making them multi-chapter, but I also know as a reader that I get frustrated when I get to the end of chapter 1 and chapter 2 isn't released for a week or so and I've forgotten about chapter 1 already! That's just my personal preference. There are a couple of series that I've read that have veered off a cliff towards the end- one isn't finished and I no longer really care if it is or not because it's just become so OTT.

If someone has figured out a way to post all parts of a story comprised of multiple chapters or parts other than as a single submission, I would appreciate them sharing.

If I have a 100K+ story broken into 30+ chapters, I have had to submit each chapter individually. Even if submitted one after another on the same day, they have always been posted on Literotica, at best, one at a time and one per day. It would take over a month for the entire story to be available to readers. Readers don't understand the delay and that is communicated in the feedback.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Maybe, but it's not all about you.

Of course not, but I am using my position as an example.

It's not all about the people who think that changing the system would be to their advantage, either.

 

[RejectReality]

Of course not, but I am using my position as an example.

It's not all about the people who think that changing the system would be to their advantage, either.

Take authors out of the equation, then.

Are readers better served by a toplist that shows them 250 stories to choose from, or 100? Considering the way readers actually use the toplist, are they better served by a page 1 that shows them 50 stories, or 23?

 

[MelissaBaby]

Take authors out of the equation, then.

Are readers better served by a toplist that shows them 250 stories to choose from, or 100? Considering the way readers actually use the toplist, are they better served by a page 1 that shows them 50 stories, or 23?

I would just be speculating if I posited an opinion on how readers use the top lists. The more I read opinions on this subject, the more I am leaning toward the solution being separate lists for chaptered stories and stand alones.

 

[RejectReality]

I would just be speculating if I posited an opinion on how readers use the top lists. The more I read opinions on this subject, the more I am leaning toward the solution being separate lists for chaptered stories and stand alones.

From a technical standpoint, aggregating a single list or splitting into two lists is probably a wash so far as coding them goes. Presenting two lists requires a redesign of the hubs and other pages where the lists are linked, though. That could be non-trivial.

( Assuming that there isn't already work behind the scenes leaning one way or the other, which completely changes the effort part of the equation )

What you end up with is a temptation to link only one of the lists from those locations, and make the other a selection/tab from the linked list. That's a severe impact to the secondary list, which would most likely be chaptered stories.

That's what puts me off endorsing split lists.

 

[RejectReality]

Just had a quick chat with Laurel, and here's what's actually in the works with regards to series and toplists.

When the series feature launches ( including author directed management of series, and removing the currently buggy automatic creation of series ) it will also come with a series "card". For an example of what it will look like, check out the new tags portal. The listings there are story "cards". It will show the series title, the number of chapters, stats for the series, etc., and link to the series page for the story, where more information will be available, and links to every chapter.

That card is what will be displayed on the toplist. It will occupy a single spot for the entire series. As far as ranking goes, they've decided to use the highest scoring chapter as the ranking criteria.

There are plenty of "yeah, buts" with regards to ranking, troll/cheerleader manipulation/etc. but it solves the largest issue in my opinion. Readers will have more to choose from, and more authors/stories will be represented.

From a coding standpoint, using the highest ranking chapter simplifies everything. I still like an aggregate, but can't say I wouldn't make the same choice when doing a cost/benefit analysis if I was the one who had to put in the work. LOL

 

[Emirus]

As far as ranking goes, they've decided to use the highest scoring chapter as the ranking criteria.

Good to see that Laurel has taken up my suggestion. Great minds think alike, as the saying goes. I assume my cheque will be in the post. LOL.

 

[Rustyoznail]

Good to see that Laurel has taken up my suggestion. Great minds think alike, as the saying goes. I assume my cheque will be in the post. LOL.

You'll get a 25% bonus based on your next royalty cheque from Lit...

I think what's proposed will certainly help writers in the less popular categories. E.G in SF&F, 44 of the all time top 50 are chapters.

That's a category I like to read, but I'm sure there's more than 135 chapters of "Three Square Meals" out there. I'm sure it's a great story though.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Just had a quick chat with Laurel, and here's what's actually in the works with regards to series and toplists.

When the series feature launches ( including author directed management of series, and removing the currently buggy automatic creation of series ) it will also come with a series "card". For an example of what it will look like, check out the new tags portal. The listings there are story "cards". It will show the series title, the number of chapters, stats for the series, etc., and link to the series page for the story, where more information will be available, and links to every chapter.

That card is what will be displayed on the toplist. It will occupy a single spot for the entire series. As far as ranking goes, they've decided to use the highest scoring chapter as the ranking criteria.

There are plenty of "yeah, buts" with regards to ranking, troll/cheerleader manipulation/etc. but it solves the largest issue in my opinion. Readers will have more to choose from, and more authors/stories will be represented.

From a coding standpoint, using the highest ranking chapter simplifies everything. I still like an aggregate, but can't say I wouldn't make the same choice when doing a cost/benefit analysis if I was the one who had to put in the work. LOL

That sounds like a reasonable way to do it.

I do think it's fair to use the highest scoring chapter rather than an aggregate, because it is not fair to assume that that particular chapter only got a higher rating because it comes late in the series. I would like to think I became a better writer as I gained experience, and I am sure that it true of others as well.