A Shocking Insight.

[Joe Wordsworth]

I entirely amused myself at my reaction to some people earlier today. So, I'm making my way around to a meeting with my city's Planning Commission (I'm one of those "get involved with politics" kind of people) and I see some high school kids, maybe college freshman, with the whole image:

I'm talking faded black shirts, peircings, dude's with eyeliner, brightly colored parts of hair and then dyed black parts, pants that were WAY big, chains, etc.

All I could think was "what a waste".

Then I thought about that for a bit, and was amused that I'd thought that. Didn't see it coming.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I entirely amused myself at my reaction to some people earlier today. So, I'm making my way around to a meeting with my city's Planning Commission (I'm one of those "get involved with politics" kind of people) and I see some high school kids, maybe college freshman, with the whole image:

I'm talking faded black shirts, peircings, dude's with eyeliner, brightly colored parts of hair and then dyed black parts, pants that were WAY big, chains, etc.

All I could think was "what a waste".

Then I thought about that for a bit, and was amused that I'd thought that. Didn't see it coming.

Was that when you realized that they were millionaire metal band "<fill in the blank>" who will smash the charts in four to six years?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Re: A Shocking Insight.

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
Was that when you realized that they were millionaire metal band "<fill in the blank>" who will smash the charts in four to six years?

More like, aside from "intellectually speaking", I'd never considered myself an intolerant man. I found it very amusing that I'd have a reaction like that.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Re: Re: Re: A Shocking Insight.

More like, aside from "intellectually speaking", I'd never considered myself an intolerant man. I found it very amusing that I'd have a reaction like that.

It's part of the white male contract we get. Every so often we have to play the bigot towards someone.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A Shocking Insight.

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
It's part of the white male contract we get. Every so often we have to play the bigot towards someone.

Oh, I don't know about any of that. Its not something I thought only years ago (and I'm not white).

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Shocking Insight.

Oh, I don't know about any of that. Its not something I thought only years ago (and I'm not white).

It was more a bad joke than an actual point, but eh.

I find it interesting that the people that the world is quickest to turn their backs on, are usually the ones who truly innovate, who create that new idea, that new science, that art form, that music style. The freaks and geeks always seem to propel the world for everyone else.

Eh, if I knew how to philosophisize properly I'd have a neater beard.

 

[Liar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Shocking Insight.

I find it interesting that the people that the world is quickest to turn their backs on, are usually the ones who truly innovate, who create that new idea, that new science, that art form, that music style. The freaks and geeks always seem to propel the world for everyone else.

Part of that might be that they don't feel they have to fit the standard form factor, niether in apparence nor intellectually.

(and I'm not white)

Oh. Thought so too. I took the dude in your AV for you, I guess.

#L

 

[English Lady]

I would have a similar reaction.

i know where mine comes from though.

My sister dumped her boyfriend about 6 months ago...they had been together about 2 years and I HATED him.

he had the baggy pants you could fit a few people in, the crappy band t-shirts, weird bum fluff beard and hat on backwards thing going on. He was a lazy, cheating, lying pig.

I now tar everyone in those clothes with the same brush -at least as a first unconscious reaction.

I know it isn't right and i often bring myself up after i think/feel it and conciously say to myself that he/she might not be the same just because he/she dresses in that same way.

Funny how even rebels rebel in groups of people who look the same.

 

[GingerV]

You want a real head tilt? Give your mind a stretch, and try to imagine what they were thinking when they looked across the street at you .

We're all human, we're all susceptible to first impressions. Sometimes its our reactions to those first impressions that matter most.

 

[rgraham666]

It was more a bad joke than an actual point, but eh.

I find it interesting that the people that the world is quickest to turn their backs on, are usually the ones who truly innovate, who create that new idea, that new science, that art form, that music style. The freaks and geeks always seem to propel the world for everyone else.

Eh, if I knew how to philosophisize properly I'd have a neater beard.

Almost all the useful change in the world comes from the 'outsiders'. Being 'inside' promotes group think.

And, is there such a thing as philosophizing properly?

Speaking of which, hair cut and beard trim today.

 

[GingerV]

Re: Re: A Shocking Insight.

Almost all the useful change in the world comes from the 'outsiders'. Being 'inside' promotes group think.

According to a BBC (I think) infotainment show, something similiar is supposed to be true of dyslexics. They seemed to want to argue that because we get so damned frustrated trying to follow rules of spelling/grammer that don't make sense to us, we're more likely to reject rules altogether. In theory it makes us freer thinkers, more willing to reject convention and go our own way. Consequently, our successes are bigger (and, although it wasn't outright stated, so are our failures).

Personally, it sounded like so much pop-psych to me. But the idea that outsiders are the source of originality brought it to mind.

G

 

[BlackShanglan]

Direct slings and arrows here ...

I'll stick a nice big target on my rump and suggest that there's nothing "wrong" with Joe's reaction and certainly not, as suggested (if perhaps in jest) anything "bigoted."

You gave them the reaction they wanted. It may, of course, lead to "goodness, I'm getting old" musings, but I see no reason for guilt or angst, nor for indignation from the recipients. One does not shave one's head, decorate one's face with cunningly wrought bits of metal, or dye one's body strange colors in order to pass unremarked through the crowd of one's fellow human beings. I enjoy colorful and provocative dress, but it loses its true joy and pleasure when the wearer lacks the courage of his convictions. Provoke? I am delighted. Provoke, and then complain that people behave as if provoked? How tedious. And, at heart, cowardly.

Why do those who view their dress as "self expression" take offense at negative reactions? Is the expression of one's opinions always to be greeted with opprobrium? That would be the dullest form of "groupthink" imaginable. Shock the darling little bourgeois all you like; only pray, do stand by your actions, and not whine and mumble when your goals are achieved.

As for "judging from appearances," that cardinal sin - ah, I am too long and ardent an admirer of Levi-Strauss to think for a moment that this is wholly irrational. Dress and social behavior are systems of sign and meaning, no less than language. I have no argument with those who wish to "speak" daringly in this system; I only object, as I would in writing, to the assumption that all messages must be received with agreement or encouragement. That would only indicate that no one was listening to them.

Shanglan

(Does the mane count as a Mohawk?)

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Re: Direct slings and arrows here ...

Originally posted by BlackShanglan
One does not shave one's head, decorate one's face with cunningly wrought bits of metal, or dye one's body strange colors in order to pass unremarked through the crowd of one's fellow human beings.

Ha, I hadn't thought about that.

 

[Just-Legal]

Re: Direct slings and arrows here ...

I'll stick a nice big target on my rump and suggest that there's nothing "wrong" with Joe's reaction and certainly not, as suggested (if perhaps in jest) anything "bigoted."

You gave them the reaction they wanted. It may, of course, lead to "goodness, I'm getting old" musings, but I see no reason for guilt or angst, nor for indignation from the recipients. One does not shave one's head, decorate one's face with cunningly wrought bits of metal, or dye one's body strange colors in order to pass unremarked through the crowd of one's fellow human beings. I enjoy colorful and provocative dress, but it loses its true joy and pleasure when the wearer lacks the courage of his convictions. Provoke? I am delighted. Provoke, and then complain that people behave as if provoked? How tedious. And, at heart, cowardly.

Why do those who view their dress as "self expression" take offense at negative reactions? Is the expression of one's opinions always to be greeted with opprobrium? That would be the dullest form of "groupthink" imaginable. Shock the darling little bourgeois all you like; only pray, do stand by your actions, and not whine and mumble when your goals are achieved.

As for "judging from appearances," that cardinal sin - ah, I am too long and ardent an admirer of Levi-Strauss to think for a moment that this is wholly irrational. Dress and social behavior are systems of sign and meaning, no less than language. I have no argument with those who wish to "speak" daringly in this system; I only object, as I would in writing, to the assumption that all messages must be received with agreement or encouragement. That would only indicate that no one was listening to them.

Shanglan

(Does the mane count as a Mohawk?)

You know I have a response to this but my brain is refusing to put it in decent sentances...

 

[Guest]

Joe, you are too young to be so judgmental. I often tell people (and have done so here) about my sons in their teens who dressed like gangbangers and are very not-white (I'm Mexican, their dad a dark Chinese). Once riding the bus together I sat alone while they sat together nearby. I saw all the white people not go near them and smiled cos only I knew how sweet and non-gangbanging they were. They were also A+ students. Ya never know, Joe.

Perdita

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by perdita
Joe, you are too young to be so judgmental.

That's why I found it amusing.

 

[cloudy]

This has been sorta amusing here - reading all the replies. Funny, I just said something to Abs about this yesterday during an IM conversation.

I don't "look" very native (whatever that is), other than being dark haired and dark complected, but have many, many friends that do - especially guys. They're complete with the long black hair, etc.

It's amusing to me to be at powwows, and sit with these friends and watch the tourists cut their eyes sideways at us (them) - Abs asked whether they expected a surprise scalping, or something.

Amusing, seen from the other side.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Re: Re: Direct slings and arrows here ...

You know I have a response to this but my brain is refusing to put it in decent sentances...

I am happy to wait for the decent or weather the indecent. I flatter myself that I am not easily shocked.

Shanglan

 

[TaintedB]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Shocking Insight.

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
The freaks and geeks always seem to propel the world for everyone else.

Who was it who said, "when the going gets rough the weird turn pro?" HT?

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

My (REAL) father had been a full-tilt hippie in his youth. You reminded me of his comment when I surprised him with what the next generation thought of as as cool.

He said that he and his friends had managed to look just as loony as I and my friends, but his generation had never required any special assistance from technology.

 

[Marsipanne]

Maybe it's my area, but I've never come across any form of racism in public areas (here) before. When I went to Rome this year, a bus driver let on two white people, but drove off before a black person got on. The bus was mostly empty, too. I was rather shocked, because this has never happened where I live before.

I'm Chinese, but I've never been the subject of any racism/bigotism. I have been disliked for reasons other than my personality though. Well, not really disliked, but rather, had ill thing wished upon me kind of thing. That makes no sense. Ah, well, my family and myself was the subject of some jealousy within the community here, and I could tell that some people were waiting with bated breath to see me fail at something, to do badly, to get pregnant, or something else that teenagers were supposed to do.

The other day, I did see a girl all goth'd up. She had very long dark hair, black lipstick, was wearing a dusty trenchcoat and a beautiful black and dark purple velvet dress with a corseted bodice. It was really beautiful, but she was just wearing it...in town, you know? I thought 'what a waste of money' because it was getting frayed, and was being subjected to some harsh treatment (pavement sweeping).

 

[BlackShanglan]

This is where I am baffled. What has racism to do with reactions to what one chooses to wear? I fail to see any connection, at least to the mentioned example.

Shanglan

 

[CharleyH]

Re: Direct slings and arrows here ...

You gave them the reaction they wanted. It may, of course, lead to "goodness, I'm getting old" musings, but I see no reason for guilt or angst, nor for indignation from the recipients. One does not shave one's head, decorate one's face with cunningly wrought bits of metal, or dye one's body strange colors in order to pass unremarked through the crowd of one's fellow human beings.

God, you sound like my Mother - LOL.

Funny, but we neglect the fact we react to modes of dress/ expression based on what we, ourselves represent, which is as much a part of the system of meaning as the signs themselves. I am as much fascinated by the fashionable expression of Goth, Glam, Gangsta, as I am with the Preppy or Geek, the latter express themselves as much as the former, but since much of society normalizes the conservative, the former becomes offensive to the ruling mediocrity.

Prep, to me, it is a much more frightening vision.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Funny, but we neglect the fact we react to modes of dress/ expression based on what we, ourselves represent, which is as much a part of the system of meaning as the signs themselves. I am as much fascinated by the fashionable expression of Goth, Glam, Gangsta, as I am with the Preppy or Geek, the latter express themselves as much as the former, but since much of society normalizes the conservative, the former becomes offensive to the ruling mediocrity.

Absolutely. This, to me, is the genuinely annoying part of pretending that all forms of clothing are inherently the same (as signs) ... it's like saying that all words mean the same thing. Where is the fun in sending messages and then insisting that everyone ignore them?

I will only take issue with your comment on the "ruling mediocrity." While I will agree that some signs are privileged over others, I will extend this to the observation that all privileges - positive and negative - are both contextual and arbitrary. We flatter ourselves that we discover mediocrity in the tastes of those we do not like or do not agree with - whether looking "up" or "down" the scale of social privilege. I find nothing empirically better or worse on either side. The signs themselves lack an inherent value; it's what they stand for that provokes reaction.

Shanglan

 

[CharleyH]

Absolutely. This, to me, is the genuinely annoying part of pretending that all forms of clothing are inherently the same (as signs) ... it's like saying that all words mean the same thing. Where is the fun in sending messages and then insisting that everyone ignore them?

I will only take issue with your comment on the "ruling mediocrity." While I will agree that some signs are privileged over others, I will extend this to the observation that all privileges - positive and negative - are both contextual and arbitrary. We flatter ourselves that we discover mediocrity in the tastes of those we do not like or do not agree with - whether looking "up" or "down" the scale of social privilege. I find nothing empirically better or worse on either side. The signs themselves lack an inherent value; it's what they stand for that provokes reaction.

Shanglan

I was playing . . .

Studying Pierce?

Things I do not like are never mediocre, for they stand out. Balancing on the fence, not going toward this side or that side, is taking up the mid-space of the mediocre, ah, and yet even the mid-space has an ethereal, twilight zone feel to it.

If it wasn't after 6, I would love to go into a whole semiotic discourse, but god I cant think after 6 I will revisit this though - semiotics are my favourite.