A rotund marital decision

[Swilly]

Thanks. I hope the Rangers win this round. Then I hope they lose. Seriously, I want P'burgh out the playoffs ASAP.

Don't be betting anything valuable. The Rangers are a tired team right now. :/

 

[PennLady]

BTW, I don't think I said this explicitly, so I will now: If the husband has been trying to work things out, and the wife is resisting or not helping or otherwise making not making an effort to address the problem, then I think he has a much better reason for getting out of the marriage. I have never wanted to say that the wife doesn't bear some responsibility.

 

[PennLady]

Don't be betting anything valuable. The Rangers are a tired team right now. :/

Then let's have them pop some Red Bull and get moving!

 

[Handley_Page]

This calls to my mind the old song:
"Keep young and beautiful" (Eddie Cantor)

 

[Bramblethorn]

She selfishly changed the parameters of the marriage.

In a marriage you are supposed to fulfil each others needs and wishes, which means that he has to be a hunk for her and she has to be a hottie for him. By letting herself go like this, she has put her own love of food over any consideration for her husband and is essentially saying: "Fuck you - and go fetch me another piece of cake!"

Why should he stay married to a woman who holds him and his needs in such low regard? He is obviously not her first priority in life.

So did he tell her, BEFORE they tied the knot, that he required her to stay thin and that this would be a deal-breaker?

If not, then HE is the one who's "selfishly changed the parameters of the marriage". I don't recall "no fat chicks" in the standard wedding vows. Although there is a bit about "in sickness and in health, for better or for worse".)

I'm also curious as to what conditions she got to impose in return: what was his maximum permitted weight? Was there a "no going bald" clause?

I have gained weight. I have recently dropped A LOT of pounds, like 25% of my body mass. My goal is to drop another 25% from where I am now. It's an achievable goal. But it's not easy. And, in a phrase, Ya really gotta wanna, and if ya don't wanna, ya ain't gonna.

Despite various psychobabble, the weight of humans and other animals is really a simple matter: Eat more calories than you burn, and you'll get fat. Burn more calories than you eat, and you'll drop weight. Motivations and physiology are embellishments -- the physics of eating trumps them. IMHO depression is not a valid excuse for porking-out.

No, it really isn't that simple.

A large portion of the "what you burn" side of the equation is due to resting metabolism. Your brain automatically works to maintain a stable weight by moderating both appetite and resting metabolism; if you try to exercise more and reduce what you eat, it will slow resting consumption and make you hungry. And hunger is probably the strongest biological drive there is; if we're going to expect the wife here to ignore her appetite, it should be comparatively easy for the husband to ignore his sex drive.

Yeah, if you're determined enough you can force weight loss by starvation tactics. This is a really bad idea, because the brain's autonomous response to starvation is "whoa, we're in a dangerous environment with uncertain food supply... better get back to set point as soon as we can, and then put on some extra fat reserves". So most crash diets end up rebounding to above where they started out. As Garner and Wooley put it:

"There are two indisputable facts regarding dietary treatment of obesity. The first is that virtually all programs appear to be able to demonstrate moderate success in promoting at least some short-term weight loss. The second is that there is virtually no evidence that clinically significant weight loss can be maintained over the long-term by the vast majority of people."

But we're so heavily socialised to see weight as a moral issue and a matter of "willpower" that even when confronted with the medical evidence, people go into denial patterns. (Did you know that "obese" people with a BMI of 30-35 actually have a lower rate of mortality than people in the "normal" range? Yes, they do.)

Some more info about the complexities of dieting here: http://www.fatnutritionist.com/index.php/why-diets-dont-work/

 

[PennLady]

So did he tell her, BEFORE they tied the knot, that he required her to stay thin and that this would be a deal-breaker?

If not, then HE is the one who's "selfishly changed the parameters of the marriage". I don't recall "no fat chicks" in the standard wedding vows. Although there is a bit about "in sickness and in health, for better or for worse".)

I'm also curious as to what conditions she got to impose in return: what was his maximum permitted weight? Was there a "no going bald" clause?

No, it really isn't that simple.

Thanks for this. You said a lot of things I wish I had said, or known.

 

[xelliebabex]

Sik,

I'd bet that your health improvement had little to do with salt. You were eating healthier.

Although sodium is often still touted to be a killer, there is little evidence to support this.

Okay...I've made my points about food.

As for the question...

Many years ago, I worked with a woman that was fat. Not chubby. Fat. We became very good friends, and eventually lovers. I had never been involved with a woman that was fat before or since. Here was the thing, though. I loved that woman. God, did I love her. She was beautiful to me, and that was that. We fucked each other senseless, and loved every minute of it. Unfortunately, she had family issues that required her to leave the area, and over time, we went our separate ways.

So...no. I would not leave a woman I loved because she became fat. Or had a breast removed. Or chipped a tooth. Or any of the multitude of shit that can befall people in this world.

I think this is at the crux of the situation. Can he truly have loved her for who she truly was as a person if the shell of that person can kill a love that was supposed to be enduring?

You can all wax on about obesity and food and why people gain weight but... he married her presumably because he loved her truly madly deeply enough to make that sort of commitment. One has to ask: how deep was the love if it can be so easily discarded?

Perhaps now that she knows it wasn't a deep abiding love she can move on and find someone who appreciates her as a whole person not just the outer shell.

 

[StrangeLife]

So did he tell her, BEFORE they tied the knot, that he required her to stay thin and that this would be a deal-breaker?

If not, then HE is the one who's "selfishly changed the parameters of the marriage". I don't recall "no fat chicks" in the standard wedding vows. Although there is a bit about "in sickness and in health, for better or for worse".)

I'm also curious as to what conditions she got to impose in return: what was his maximum permitted weight? Was there a "no going bald" clause?

It's not about a "clause" - it's about reasonable expectations. If you drive a new car for a month and the paint starts to peel, wouldn't you say that your expectations weren't met?

When you marry you are "each others" in several ways and what one of you do, will invariably affect the other. He runs several times a week and keeps himself fit in order to be healthy and look good for her. Thus she gets the benefit of having a man who does his best with what he's got... a handsome man she can be proud of.

Is it so unfair that he gets the same in return?

Remember that this is not about stretch marks, saggy mammaries, bald heads, wrinkles and whatever else we might encounter later in life as part of our natural ageing process. This is a neglected 25 year old girl who looked stunning at her wedding. She hasn't aged - only doubled in size.

And we haven't even talked about the heath issues and the lack of abilities that comes with being obese. Factors that will drag your family down as well.

No, it really isn't that simple.

A large portion of the "what you burn" side of the equation is due to resting metabolism. Your brain automatically works to maintain a stable weight by moderating both appetite and resting metabolism; if you try to exercise more and reduce what you eat, it will slow resting consumption and make you hungry. And hunger is probably the strongest biological drive there is; if we're going to expect the wife here to ignore her appetite, it should be comparatively easy for the husband to ignore his sex drive.

Yeah, if you're determined enough you can force weight loss by starvation tactics. This is a really bad idea, because the brain's autonomous response to starvation is "whoa, we're in a dangerous environment with uncertain food supply... better get back to set point as soon as we can, and then put on some extra fat reserves". So most crash diets end up rebounding to above where they started out. As Garner and Wooley put it:

"There are two indisputable facts regarding dietary treatment of obesity. The first is that virtually all programs appear to be able to demonstrate moderate success in promoting at least some short-term weight loss. The second is that there is virtually no evidence that clinically significant weight loss can be maintained over the long-term by the vast majority of people."

But we're so heavily socialised to see weight as a moral issue and a matter of "willpower" that even when confronted with the medical evidence, people go into denial patterns. (Did you know that "obese" people with a BMI of 30-35 actually have a lower rate of mortality than people in the "normal" range? Yes, they do.)

Some more info about the complexities of dieting here: http://www.fatnutritionist.com/index.php/why-diets-dont-work/

We are talking about a very fast weight gain here - basically she must have been on a 3 year binge of candy, chips and fast food in order to do what she did. The solution is evident though. She was never before an over weight person, so all she would basically need to do is whatever she did before she got married. She has the perfect recipe for a sustainable diet already in her head.

I agree that the guy goes about it the wrong way. Pressure never helps. But I don't know how long he has tried to help her and what he has tried before it got this far. Maybe he's simply at the end of his rope with her. Dealing with selfdestructive people can be very frustrating and unrewarding.

 

[StrangeLife]

I think this is at the crux of the situation. Can he truly have loved her for who she truly was as a person if the shell of that person can kill a love that was supposed to be enduring?

You can all wax on about obesity and food and why people gain weight but... he married her presumably because he loved her truly madly deeply enough to make that sort of commitment. One has to ask: how deep was the love if it can be so easily discarded?

Perhaps now that she knows it wasn't a deep abiding love she can move on and find someone who appreciates her as a whole person not just the outer shell.

There are several problems with that way of looking at it Xellie.

Firstly you could turn it around and ask, whether she truly loves him if she has so little respect, consideration and concern for him and his feelings?

Secondly she is no longer the person he fell in love with and married. This level of obesity doesn't just change your looks - it is bound to curb your energy and affect your personality as well.

 

[Stella_Omega]

But then again, there are certain things you simply cannot do if one party is significantly adiposically challenged. So even if the engine is bristling with power, you can't ride most of the roads if the car is too wide...

I will always remember getting the husband's side in a marriage full of friction. He said;
"She hates herself for getting obese. And she takes her anger out on everyone."
And indeed she was well into three hundred pounds, on a five-foot-six frame. And she was an astonishingly angry woman. She could call down the Greek Furies, in vicious detail-- and mean it.

her husband then described the delicate, fraught dance that he went through to woo her to bed. Any wrong step and he would have to start over again the next day. (I had some advice for him on that, which was to be much less hesitant and covert) At the end, he said this;

"When she is willing-- it's like having a goddess in my bed."

And oh my lord, did he mean it.

A pleasent memory.

 

[PennLady]

We are talking about a very fast weight gain here - basically she must have been on a 3 year binge of candy, chips and fast food in order to do what she did. The solution is evident though. She was never before an over weight person, so all she would basically need to do is whatever she did before she got married. She has the perfect recipe for a sustainable diet already in her head.

You say she "must have been" on a binge -- how do you know? Did she tell you? Did he? And why do you keep ignoring the fact that there could be other factors at play? At least, you seem to just dismiss them. She could be depressed. She could have a physical problem that affected her metabolism. Any number of things.

Weight gain is, or can be, more than just eating too much.

This all sounds so judgmental. You have no idea what's in her head (and neither do I). Look, just about everyone knows what you need to lose weight and/or be healthy in an overall sense. But if was that damn easy, everyone would do it and you wouldn't have Weight Watchers and Gold's Gym.

I agree that the guy goes about it the wrong way. Pressure never helps. But I don't know how long he has tried to help her and what he has tried before it got this far. Maybe he's simply at the end of his rope with her. Dealing with selfdestructive people can be very frustrating and unrewarding.

Maybe he is at the end of his rope. Like I said, if he has worked and she is not meeting him at least halfway, that changes the situation. But it's so disheartening to see all of this shoved on her -- devil's advocacy side -- and no one wanting to look more deeply into her side of things.

A 22yo woman who marries, then has no work (for whatever reason), a major change of life from when she was in college and whatever else sounds like a serious candidate for depression or something like it. An EIGHTY-POUND gain should raise flags on many levels.

Seriously, if she had lost a lot of weight, you'd be worried, right? I doubt her husband would say she got too skinny and he lost attraction or whatever. People would be encouraging her to get tested, go to a doctor, all of that. But since she's gained it, it can't possibly be anything but laziness, it seems.

That is so ... awful.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It's not about a "clause" - it's about reasonable expectations. If you drive a new car for a month and the paint starts to peel, wouldn't you say that your expectations weren't met?

Yes, I would, because when I buy a car in Australia, that transaction is subject to laws that require the seller to make certain enforceable guarantees regarding quality. Those requirements include "fit for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly supplied", "acceptable in appearance and finish", and "free from defects".

Leaving aside the issue that a spouse is not a car... marriage laws - both secular and Catholic - also lay out various rules about what partners are expected to do. I'm not aware of any "no fat chicks" clause in either of them, but there is a very strong "no divorce" expectation in Catholic law, and the words of the ceremony often involve language like "for better or for worse, until death do us part". I expect both your friend and his wife would have been aware of that.

So it seems pretty clear that he has made a conscious decision to violate expectations that he'd previously agreed to.

As to unwritten, unvoiced expectations... that's where it gets tricky. Going into a marriage without discussing your expectations and just assuming that your partner has the same understanding of the "rules" is a recipe for disaster. No doubt he didn't expect her to get fat, but I'm not convinced that's any more of a betrayal than the "hubby working long hours and maybe being too tired to remember to compliment her once in a while..." that you mentioned.

(Also, worth noting that what we're getting here appears to be mostly his side of the story; in my experience when a relationship goes wrong, there are always at least three different versions of what happened.)

When you marry you are "each others" in several ways and what one of you do, will invariably affect the other. He runs several times a week and keeps himself fit in order to be healthy and look good for her. Thus she gets the benefit of having a man who does his best with what he's got... a handsome man she can be proud of.

Uh-huh.

Do you know for a fact that this is what she actually wants from him? Even with only hearing his side of things, filtered through you, I suspect that having him look trim and terrific isn't actually very high on her list of needs.

Is it so unfair that he gets the same in return?

...and somewhere out there, perhaps she's talking to her friends, saying something like: "I gave him so much emotional support, I made sacrifices for him, is it so unfair to ask that I get the same in return?

Remember that this is not about stretch marks, saggy mammaries, bald heads, wrinkles and whatever else we might encounter later in life as part of our natural ageing process. This is a neglected 25 year old girl who looked stunning at her wedding. She hasn't aged - only doubled in size.

And we haven't even talked about the heath issues and the lack of abilities that comes with being obese. Factors that will drag your family down as well.

Actually, I did mention the health issues that come with obesity in my previous post; being skinny is actually more dangerous than mild obesity, but somehow people never seem to talk about how selfish it is to be skinny.

We are talking about a very fast weight gain here - basically she must have been on a 3 year binge of candy, chips and fast food in order to do what she did.

I think it's very unwise to speculate about what "must have" happened based on a second-hand account from somebody on the other side of a marriage breakdown. As PL has already noted, there are several reasons why people gain weight.

The solution is evident though. She was never before an over weight person, so all she would basically need to do is whatever she did before she got married. She has the perfect recipe for a sustainable diet already in her head.

Nothing about weight gain or loss is "simple". It's a complicated physiological system affected by an even more complicated psychological system.

I agree that the guy goes about it the wrong way. Pressure never helps. But I don't know how long he has tried to help her and what he has tried before it got this far. Maybe he's simply at the end of his rope with her. Dealing with selfdestructive people can be very frustrating and unrewarding.

Here you're trying to come up with sympathetic explanations for his behaviour, but you don't seem to be working nearly as hard to think of sympathetic explanations for hers.

I've been through breakups and near-breakups, and I've supported friends through theirs. I understand how tempting it is to try to assign blame - especially after hearing one side of the story from the person to whom you have closer ties. But it's generally not a good idea. If his friends are trying to make him feel better by telling him it's all her fault for being a greedy slob, and her friends are telling her it's all his fault for being an unsupportive jerk... all you end up with is two people who hate one another, and a really messy breakup. Even if the relationship is doomed, no need to make it worse than it has to be.

Not that you asked for it, but my advice is: you can be supportive to your friend without taking sides. You can say "I'm sorry you're going through this, that must really suck - wanna go bowling?" (or whatever he enjoys) without having to decide whose fault it all is.

 

[Trixareforkids]

No but...

To divorce for appearance sake only is unkind.

Rule of thumb for those not married, take a good look at the parents of the person you're marrying so you can see what possibly awaits you in the future and prepare yourself.

BUT...

Most people don't divorce simply because of a change in their partner's looks. The reason people stay with people they are no longer attracted to is that there are other things that are just as important as appearance. If there are NO other things that are more important then it is/was a doomed relationship anyway.

 

[Trixareforkids]

One could be tempted to make the assumption that the woman in question only kept in shape in order to land a good husband, and then afterwards felt secure enough to stop making an effort. Keeping the weight down in order to achieve a goal is not unheard of.

My initial reply was made solely on the two choices presented without any story line to go with it.

With the specifics of this case it doesn't really change but it does make me wonder if she was always slim or had weight control issues before they married.

I'm 40 lbs heavier than I was when we got married, but then I weighed 88 lbs when we got married and that was 19 years ago. 80 lbs in 3 years is a tremendous amount of weight, my first thought was thyroid issues, second thought is B/C method (one girl I worked with gained 40 lbs in 2 months after getting norplant, and boy was she pissed having lost and kept off 60 lbs the year before) and then my last as was already mentioned was depression which unless there's family history would be at least somewhat telling of the relationship.

If I were her family I'd be more worried about her mental/physical health than the state of her marriage.

 

[mikoli5763]

There are

so many different opinions and ideas scattered through this thread that I both agree and disagree with.
No reason is given for the sudden weight gain and that is an important fact that could help. My wife was slim when we first met, but it was because she'd suffered for two years with undiagnosed Crohn's. After her diagnosis and our wedding, the drugs and specifically steroids caused her to gain a lot of weight. Did I want to leave her because she was no longer slim? No, because I loved her totally (still do). She has three wardrobes because she's been up and down in weight due to her illness for the past thirty years. Right now she is back to the size she was when we met, but it is again due to her illness being out of control.
SikFuk stated that women age like the mothers, and that is one statement I don't agree with. My wife is nothing like her mom and I don't see her becoming like her mom as we continue together.
Divorcing someone because they've gained too much weight is sad if that is the true reason. Again we don't know enough of this couple's situation to be able to make any type of opinion on what they should do.

 

[StrangeLife]

I will always remember getting the husband's side in a marriage full of friction. He said;
"She hates herself for getting obese. And she takes her anger out on everyone."

That's one of the issues with dating an over weight woman which I have experienced myself earlier in life. No matter how often you keep repeating that you don't care, she won't believe you. And of course you can forget about having the lights on during sex.

You say she "must have been" on a binge -- how do you know? Did she tell you? Did he? And why do you keep ignoring the fact that there could be other factors at play? At least, you seem to just dismiss them. She could be depressed. She could have a physical problem that affected her metabolism. Any number of things.

Weight gain is, or can be, more than just eating too much.

This all sounds so judgmental. You have no idea what's in her head (and neither do I). Look, just about everyone knows what you need to lose weight and/or be healthy in an overall sense. But if was that damn easy, everyone would do it and you wouldn't have Weight Watchers and Gold's Gym.

Like I said from the beginning, I don't know the details and what has been going on behind closed doors in their home. She didn't just wake up one morning with an 80 pound weight gain, so it could have been a point of contention in the relationship for a long time. And I'm not even going to involve myself in the religious aspects of "the holyness of a marriage before God" which has the elders all up in arms.

So the discussion that has circulated among the families has been focusing more on the general principle of whether or not it is fair to divorce your spouse for a "superficial reason" like this one. I mean, it is fully acceptable for a woman to file for divorce because the man starts to abuse alcohol or turns out to be a failure as a provider, right? "He can't hold a job and plays Xbox all day," seems to be a socially acceptable reason for ending a marriage to a man, so why can't a man ditch a woman on the reason that "she has let herself go completely to the point where I not longer find her attractive and she eats all day"? In both cases we are dealing with spouses that fails to fulfil the expectations of the other party, right?

For some reason it's perfectly ok for a woman to divorce a loser, but it's wrong for a man to divorce a slob. Somehow there's an imbalance here.

Leaving aside the issue that a spouse is not a car... marriage laws - both secular and Catholic - also lay out various rules about what partners are expected to do. I'm not aware of any "no fat chicks" clause in either of them, but there is a very strong "no divorce" expectation in Catholic law, and the words of the ceremony often involve language like "for better or for worse, until death do us part". I expect both your friend and his wife would have been aware of that.

So it seems pretty clear that he has made a conscious decision to violate expectations that he'd previously agreed to.

As to unwritten, unvoiced expectations... that's where it gets tricky. Going into a marriage without discussing your expectations and just assuming that your partner has the same understanding of the "rules" is a recipe for disaster. No doubt he didn't expect her to get fat, but I'm not convinced that's any more of a betrayal than the "hubby working long hours and maybe being too tired to remember to compliment her once in a while..." that you mentioned.

(Also, worth noting that what we're getting here appears to be mostly his side of the story; in my experience when a relationship goes wrong, there are always at least three different versions of what happened.)

Maybe the car was a poor analogy, but at it's core the issue is about reasonable expectations. Of course you don't marry a pretty picture - you marry a human being, and human beings change over time. But you have a reasonable expectation that the changes will happen gradually so you can "grow together". Not that one party will go into a spiral that will leave her almost unrecognisable a mere three years after the wedding.

And I hear what you and Penn are saying about possible medical or psychological problems, but I will still maintain that there is a significant culpability on the part of the fatee. It simply doesn't happen without a hand moving the spoon and the jaw chewing.

Here you're trying to come up with sympathetic explanations for his behaviour, but you don't seem to be working nearly as hard to think of sympathetic explanations for hers.

I've been through breakups and near-breakups, and I've supported friends through theirs. I understand how tempting it is to try to assign blame - especially after hearing one side of the story from the person to whom you have closer ties. But it's generally not a good idea. If his friends are trying to make him feel better by telling him it's all her fault for being a greedy slob, and her friends are telling her it's all his fault for being an unsupportive jerk... all you end up with is two people who hate one another, and a really messy breakup. Even if the relationship is doomed, no need to make it worse than it has to be.

Not that you asked for it, but my advice is: you can be supportive to your friend without taking sides. You can say "I'm sorry you're going through this, that must really suck - wanna go bowling?" (or whatever he enjoys) without having to decide whose fault it all is.

She is getting plenty of sympathy, believe you me. I am not having an easy time at the dinner table these days. Wifey takes stuff like this personally...

And I am not saying that he is right. In fact, from the little I know he is being pretty damned stupid in discarding a good woman that could be easily fixed. He will learn soon enough that love isn't so easy to find. But then again I can also understand why - after only three years and no kids - a young man might choose to simply cut his losses and move on. If I may use a car analogy again, if you end up with a lemon some people might choose to trade it in right away rather than going through the trouble of having it in the shop every month.

I am not close enough to either of them to be the person he is relying on for support, but I am defending him before "the family court" for the sake of the principles.

To divorce for appearance sake only is unkind.

Rule of thumb for those not married, take a good look at the parents of the person you're marrying so you can see what possibly awaits you in the future and prepare yourself.

BUT...

Most people don't divorce simply because of a change in their partner's looks. The reason people stay with people they are no longer attracted to is that there are other things that are just as important as appearance. If there are NO other things that are more important then it is/was a doomed relationship anyway.

Yes it's more than just "appearance" Trix.

Extreme obesity affects your physical abilities in numerous ways. What if he wanted to take his family trekking in the wilderness or going on a bicycle vacation? Can she even go for a long romantic walk in the forrest? There is the sex of course - and remember that this is a young couple. They're supposed to be at it like rabbits. And how about going clubbing all night? At 80 pounds overweight and out of shape that's pretty much a no-go.

And I haven't even started to mention all the emotional baggage that often goes with it. Lights out in the bedroom, she might refuse to wear a bathing suit on the beach, self-flagellation because she can't fit the clothes she wants to wear and so on.

And what about kids? Obesity is no hindrance for getting pregnant, but it does increase the likelihood of complications.


All that aside I will also refute the claim that appearance isn't a valid reason to ditch a spouse, when the deterioration is caused by a wilful or neglectful act by the ditchee. As a wife she is supposed to make an effort for her man just like he is supposed to do his best for for her, so by letting herself go like that she has essentially informed him - by her actions - that she she doesn't care about his needs or happiness. That's not a good basis for a marriage.

 

[R. Richard]

If I were her family I'd be more worried about her mental/physical health than the state of her marriage.

The gain of 80 lbs puts the woman in danger of all sorts of health issues. The state of her marriage pales in comparison.

 

[PennLady]

That's one of the issues with dating an over weight woman which I have experienced myself earlier in life. No matter how often you keep repeating that you don't care, she won't believe you. And of course you can forget about having the lights on during sex.

But you have to stop generalizing. Not every overweight woman is like that. I'm not. I mean, I know I'm overweight, but I deal with it in various ways, and luckily, my husband likes my shape, which has change a bit during our marriage. He's found me sexy no matter what, and that counts for a lot. If I were to suddenly gain weight like that, his first concern would be for my health, physical and mental.

I don't know if that's the case with your couple. I hope so. Or at least I hope that was his first reaction.

For some reason it's perfectly ok for a woman to divorce a loser, but it's wrong for a man to divorce a slob. Somehow there's an imbalance here.

No it's not okay, on either count. The only thing that makes it remotely okay is if one partner tells the other about their concerns, but the other makes no effort to address it. THAT is the problem. And so far, we don't know what, if any steps have been taken to help this woman and whether she has cooperated or not.

A spouse who can't hold a job -- let's assume it's within their control -- and plays Xbox all day can be a similar problem. What if they're depressed? What if they've looked for a job and can't find one after months and months? To fill their time, and stop thinking, they play video games. If you thought they were depressed, you'd want to help, wouldn't you?

But you have a reasonable expectation that the changes will happen gradually so you can "grow together". Not that one party will go into a spiral that will leave her almost unrecognisable a mere three years after the wedding.

A spiral that leaves her almost unrecognizable? And you don't think that perhaps there could be more at play here? *headdesk*

And I hear what you and Penn are saying about possible medical or psychological problems, but I will still maintain that there is a significant culpability on the part of the fatee. It simply doesn't happen without a hand moving the spoon and the jaw chewing.

Not entirely true (what I wanted to say was: bullshit). There are medications that result in weight gain, as many of us have pointed out. And I'll keep saying that perhaps she is depressed. And I don't just mean "sad," I mean there could be a chemical imbalance in her brain that needs addressing, or issues that she needs therapy to deal with. And if they are going to be in a small box to deal with these things, well, that just makes it worse.

And I will point out one thing about how so many think it's so "easy." You can stop smoking by simply not picking up another cigarette. Or stop drinking by not ingesting alcoholic stuff. You can chuck your Xbox and not play games. But you can't NOT EAT.

The fact that you refuse to cut her any slack on this, even if it's just because you feel someone should take the other side, is ... disappointing. Disheartening. Something like that. There is more to eating than just eating.

And I have to say that even the sympathy you're telling us she gets may be misplaced, or misdirected. It's fine to be a shoulder to cry on, but at some point you may have to hear that you need to do more. If she's not hearing that, it's adding to the problem as well.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's one of the issues with dating an over weight woman which I have experienced myself earlier in life. No matter how often you keep repeating that you don't care, she won't believe you. And of course you can forget about having the lights on during sex.

That rather depends on the woman. I've dated two or three who'd probably be considered overweight to obese by the usual standards, and none of them had a problem with leaving the lights on.

OTOH, it sounds as if this guy does care about her weight, so, yeah, it wouldn't be surprising if she's self-conscious about it.

So the discussion that has circulated among the families has been focusing more on the general principle of whether or not it is fair to divorce your spouse for a "superficial reason" like this one. I mean, it is fully acceptable for a woman to file for divorce because the man starts to abuse alcohol or turns out to be a failure as a provider, right? "He can't hold a job and plays Xbox all day," seems to be a socially acceptable reason for ending a marriage to a man, so why can't a man ditch a woman on the reason that "she has let herself go completely to the point where I not longer find her attractive and she eats all day"? In both cases we are dealing with spouses that fails to fulfil the expectations of the other party, right?

That rather depends on the reason why he can't hold down a job. If he became unable to work because of injury or illness, I think most people would judge his wife pretty harshly for abandoning him at that point.

Even leaving aside the question of whether his joblessness or her weight gain are voluntary... I don't accept that these are equivalent situations. Putting your partner at risk of bankruptcy and homelessness (or forcing them to work a second job to avoid same, or whatever) is not on the same level as failing to look slim and sexy.

And I hear what you and Penn are saying about possible medical or psychological problems, but I will still maintain that there is a significant culpability on the part of the fatee. It simply doesn't happen without a hand moving the spoon and the jaw chewing.

So if somebody develops (say) a thyroid tumour and gains 80 pounds as a result, you would still hold that they're culpable for that weight gain because they didn't starve themselves enough to stop it?

And I am not saying that he is right. In fact, from the little I know he is being pretty damned stupid in discarding a good woman that could be easily fixed. He will learn soon enough that love isn't so easy to find. But then again I can also understand why - after only three years and no kids - a young man might choose to simply cut his losses and move on. If I may use a car analogy again, if you end up with a lemon some people might choose to trade it in right away rather than going through the trouble of having it in the shop every month.

And anybody who expects relationships to work that way is in for a lifetime of loneliness and disappointment.

 

[MSTarot]

At a first glance my take on this is that he was more in love with her body than with her.

Would it have been a deal breaker is she went the other way? Went skinny as a rail?

How about if she muscled up? Miss Olympia style.

How about when she aged? Would those gray hairs be a deal breaker when they started to creep in?

I saw it kinda mentioned but I would like to seriously know what his weight is now compared to what it was before they married.


You're not hungry. Your spouse is. They fix something and the smell of it makes you hungry, so you eat. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Show of hands with wedding rings.


Marriage is a journey through life with the one person that is willing to put up with your crap. That person better be your best friend in the world, because you will be spending a lot of time together. They have to want to be with you for many reasons, and the way you look is far down that list. Because the way you look is going to change and unless you have the money to keep ahead of the changes your going to look different than you did when you first met.

And if the two of you can't laugh about it when your bodies start to fall apart what the hell are you going to do when your seventy or eighty and cant find where you left your glasses?

You have to have someone there to tell you you're wearing them.


Now on food.

My great grandfather lived on a farm. He ate biscuits made with lard and thick slabs of pork sausage every morning. The biscuits dripped with butter. His lunch would have been fried something another, with dinner being most likely beans and cornbread both flavored with bacon grease. If not then probably fried chicken, cooked in lard as well.

He rode a tractor around his farm and feed chickens. The most work he did was mending his fence. He was by today's BMI standards morbidly obese. His favorite pass time was playing dominoes, sitting beside his pond fishing, and reading Zane Gray novels.

That man lived to be 87.

He enjoyed life.

If you are going to worry about every bite you take then get out and grow your own food. There are thousands of websites that can tell you how to do that. If your not willing to do that then accept that what you are eating may shorten your life and enjoy the time you have.

Enjoy your life.

If you want to eat ice cream, go get a damn thing of ice cream. YOU could be killed in a car wreck on the way to work tomorrow. If that happened will it have made a difference? No.

Take responsibility that what you do affects how long you live then enjoy what you want.

Except for anything off the menu at McDonald's. That stuff will kill you.

MST

 

[Swilly]

So fat people, and fat women specifically, are slobs SL?

That statement shows incredible ignorance, casting of stereotypes, and pretty much sums up your opinion on the topic. Why even start a poll like this?

 

[Trixareforkids]

So the discussion that has circulated among the families has been focusing more on the general principle of whether or not it is fair to divorce your spouse for a "superficial reason" like this one. I mean, it is fully acceptable for a woman to file for divorce because the man starts to abuse alcohol or turns out to be a failure as a provider, right? "He can't hold a job and plays Xbox all day," seems to be a socially acceptable reason for ending a marriage to a man, so why can't a man ditch a woman on the reason that "she has let herself go completely to the point where I not longer find her attractive and she eats all day"? In both cases we are dealing with spouses that fails to fulfil the expectations of the other party, right?

For some reason it's perfectly ok for a woman to divorce a loser, but it's wrong for a man to divorce a slob. Somehow there's an imbalance here.

I haven't looked yet, but I'm betting this doesn't go over well.

Since you do not know the specifics or the ins and outs of their relationship all this idle speculation is a train to polarizing opinions and possibly mud slinging.

It sucks that he's leaving her for the stated reason of her looks. It's good that you're a voice of dissent in the family discussions, all family gang-ups need a devil's advocate there to take the unpopular side. And my only other comment would be that you can't "fix" anyone, ever. You can change yourself and your own opinions but never someone else's, that is entirely up to them and thinking of a person or any aspect of a person as "fixable" is setting you and them up for heartache.

 

[Handley_Page]

So we make time. I used to live on microwaved meals because I didn't think I had time to cook. Then I learned about the correlation between a high sodium diet and high blood pressure. I had a choice, take blood pressure medicine that made me feel like crap, or change my diet. I chose the latter. Once a week, I make a 4.5 quart crock pot stew with veggies and chicken and NO SALT and freeze it in 7 Glad freezer containers. I also make brown rice and freeze it in bags. That's what I live on. 2 meals a day from the crock pot, avocados and fresh berries (which are in season year-round thanks to the global economy) with the middle meal a low sodium burrito or sandwich, or if I had a weight problem, would be a salad. None of this is time consuming. The only time difference is dealing with the crock pot once a week. Is good health worth a couple of hours a week? I guess that's an individual decision.

(And BTW, I'm even more disgusted by men with big flabby bellies than by women who've lost their shape due to kids and such. Dudes! Look in the fucking mirror. You're a pig. Oink oink.)

Would I be right in thinking that when you say "No Salt" you refer to Sodium salt (NaCl)? I get my frozen meals and do them in a micro-wave oven. It's a strange-tasting different kinda stuff, but it works. I gotta loose some weight and I DO take pills for high blood pressure (and I use Potassium salt for most stuff).
Drop me a line and tell me more about how to make the stuff (I can burn water, me!).

 

[StrangeLife]

But you have to stop generalizing. Not every overweight woman is like that. I'm not. I mean, I know I'm overweight, but I deal with it in various ways, and luckily, my husband likes my shape, which has change a bit during our marriage. He's found me sexy no matter what, and that counts for a lot. If I were to suddenly gain weight like that, his first concern would be for my health, physical and mental.

I don't know if that's the case with your couple. I hope so. Or at least I hope that was his first reaction.

I didn't mean it to come out as an attack on voluptuous women. It could also have been the opposite - a guy who married a big girl and loving it, only to experience that she lost all the weight, got a breast reduction and began running marathons. Or a guy who married a sexually liberated nymphomaniac who later found Jesus and decided that sex was for procreation only.

It's about broken promises and reasonable expectations. People change over time and that's natural. But if you do a 180 right after the marriage, that's not fair to your new spouse. That's what you would call a bait'n switch scam if it happened on eBay.

No it's not okay, on either count. The only thing that makes it remotely okay is if one partner tells the other about their concerns, but the other makes no effort to address it. THAT is the problem. And so far, we don't know what, if any steps have been taken to help this woman and whether she has cooperated or not.

A spouse who can't hold a job -- let's assume it's within their control -- and plays Xbox all day can be a similar problem. What if they're depressed? What if they've looked for a job and can't find one after months and months? To fill their time, and stop thinking, they play video games. If you thought they were depressed, you'd want to help, wouldn't you?

Of course. And you're right - I don't know what has been going on in their relationship. Maybe she did have a breakdown or something. But the way it was laid out in the family rumor-mill is that they are separated because she got fat and stopped caring about her appearance. And while there certainly can be deeper rooted causes for such behaviour, there doesn't have to be. Let's not forget that not all bad things committed by people are caused by forces beyond their control. People can be lazy without being ill. People can be gluttonous without being ill. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, right?

And I will point out one thing about how so many think it's so "easy." You can stop smoking by simply not picking up another cigarette. Or stop drinking by not ingesting alcoholic stuff. You can chuck your Xbox and not play games. But you can't NOT EAT.

The fact that you refuse to cut her any slack on this, even if it's just because you feel someone should take the other side, is ... disappointing. Disheartening. Something like that. There is more to eating than just eating.

And I have to say that even the sympathy you're telling us she gets may be misplaced, or misdirected. It's fine to be a shoulder to cry on, but at some point you may have to hear that you need to do more. If she's not hearing that, it's adding to the problem as well.

I do not "refuse to cut her any slack" Penn. I am simply saying that I don't believe the husband should be vilified for bailing out of a marriage that has turned bad almost before the ink of the certificate has dried. They have no kids, they are in their mid-twenties... it's a good time to shake hands and agree that it wasn't meant to be, if that's what he wants.

 

[PennLady]

It's about broken promises and reasonable expectations. People change over time and that's natural. But if you do a 180 right after the marriage, that's not fair to your new spouse. That's what you would call a bait'n switch scam if it happened on eBay.

But a 180 should be cause for concern, whether it's mental or physical or both. Eighty pounds in three years? That's an average of gaining over 25 lbs per year. To me, that simply doesn't sound normal and it seems like that should be investigated, together.

Of course. And you're right - I don't know what has been going on in their relationship. Maybe she did have a breakdown or something. But the way it was laid out in the family rumor-mill is that they are separated because she got fat and stopped caring about her appearance.

The rumor mill may in fact be basically accurate, but also incomplete. It's not getting at the why, which I think is so important. People generally don't make massive, opposite changes in their behaviors, at least not without some kind of, I don't know, trigger.

Yes, it could be that she just started eating. But honestly, does it not strike you as odd that a person would do that? Male or female? In either direction, I mean. If someone is suddenly obsessed with getting slim when it's not something they cared about before, wouldn't you at least want to know why?

I do not "refuse to cut her any slack" Penn. I am simply saying that I don't believe the husband should be vilified for bailing out of a marriage that has turned bad almost before the ink of the certificate has dried. They have no kids, they are in their mid-twenties... it's a good time to shake hands and agree that it wasn't meant to be, if that's what he wants.

I'm not saying he should be vilified. I never have. I'm just saying, as I have been all along, that I hope he was concerned for his wife's physical and mental health before he bailed. If he has done what he can, and she is not meeting him halfway at least, then I think he's within his rights to get out. If he bailed strictly on appearance, without trying to get to the bottom of it, then she's better off without him.

I know I don't know them, and you don't know them well, and we're all just speculating in both the general sense and this specific case. But what sticks with me is that this is apparently a major and out-of-character change for the wife, but so many people just want to go with "overeating = lazy" without considering other factors that may be at play.

Like I said, take it in the other direction. Suppose she lost a lot of weight in a short period of time. Not by going to the gym, or exercising, or whatever, at least not that you know; she just kept getting thinner. Your first reaction would probably be to wonder if she has any number of physical problems, ranging from anorexia to cancer. You probably wouldn't say, well, she's too lazy to eat, she knows how to eat to put on weight, and she should keep doing that to keep up her end of the deal.

But because she's gained weight, the default assumption is that she's simply lazy and overeats. When it could be more than that.

I can't tell if you're willing to consider something like that, since you've been playing devil's advocate for most of the thread, by your own admission.

I think all of this discussion shows, too, that your original yes/no poll is tough because there are too many "ifs" in the situation.