A Request

[sr71plt]

Just a few comments, because I don't want to assess a story until theres' a complete story; this is just chapter one. Also it looks like it's getting lots of comments already, some of it becoming contradictory. (So, why comment at all? Because I was asked directly to comment).

It would open fine for me if all the bad day stuff was integrated better into what followed and was given meaning to have been used for an opening (echoing what someone else posted, I think). I much prefer the "working into it" opening you provided than the one Moore suggested, though. Trying for an "everything" opening is seen as much too busy and premature overload in literature being written in this century. The prevalent technique now is to start in action and a bit of confusion and bring the reader along with you in a buildup of the background when/as/if necessary.

Blake's party comments were much too jarring for me. If there was foreshadowing of that attitude, I missed it, so when it came it was like whiplash for me. I'd want to think "oh, yeah, I was given a hint he's a bit off kilter earlier." Maybe on the basis of the entire story I'd understand better how he worked this way.

There is some wordiness and repetition in it, yes. An example is the concrete driveway. When you first said the driveway was concrete, my thought was, "I'm either going to watch for why it's important that it's concrete"--which means you've lost some of my attention--"or this is extraneous information that can be tossed." Then you later talk about her heels clicking on the concrete of the driveway. It's OK there, then--and the earlier reference is just extraneous; toss it and anything like that.

I agree (sort of) with the complaint about "litany of protagonist's looks by mirror" and thus disagree with you on that. That is both a worn out technique and a lazy one. The reader should discern for her/himself whatever needs to be known about the protagonist's looks and personality from showing elements and the conversations of other characters around and about them. The mirror trick is just lazy writing, unless a clever take can be employed with it. What I disagree with on Dream_Operator's version of the complaint is that you don't just "fuckin' tell them." You show them.

 

[PennLady]

Just a few comments, because I don't want to assess a story until theres' a complete story; this is just chapter one. Also it looks like it's getting lots of comments already, some of it becoming contradictory. (So, why comment at all? Because I was asked directly to comment).

It's a four-chapter story, and the links for chapters 2-4 are up if you look on page 2 of chapter 1. I believe it's complete, according to SecondCircle. I haven't had a chance to read more yet myself though.

 

[moore4087]

sr71plt: I'm not a writer by trade but my wife is a book editor... Her comment when reading this chapter was funny to me. Exasperation point - WHEN will men ever get it through thier thick skulls women don't swoon over crazy people... we run away and lock our doors! (regarding Blake's introduction).
Secondly she pointed out that Jenna doesn't have anybody as a confidant??? ALL women have the "best buddy" syndrome with other women - even if they are a pain - to drink wine and shop with... My wife's opinion was the writer should try writing the story from a males perspective - which I told her it's too late!

as a side note... your comment about the "everything approach" makes me curious. I agree with the same distractions as you spoke of (concrete driveway) but I didn't understand the point of Jenna walking to her mailbox in heels if she was bothered by being ogled by construction workers, then what does she think 3 young movers are going to do and why would THAT be exciting or acceptable to her at her home rather than at her work?
Thats why I like more of the Grisham-esque writing style. I prefer the backstory to begin with, then full paragraphs later explaining what/why/how taking away from the storyline...but to each thier own. (26K posts - who am I to dispute THAT!)

 

[PennLady]

Secondly she pointed out that Jenna doesn't have anybody as a confidant??? ALL women have the "best buddy" syndrome with other women - even if they are a pain - to drink wine and shop with... My wife's opinion was the writer should try writing the story from a males perspective - which I told her it's too late!

Speaking as a woman, not every woman does have a confidant or good friend. I'm not sure I do. I do have friends, but I don't know who I'd turn to if I needed to discuss something important and for some reason my husband was unavailable, or if I simply needed to talk to someone else. I'm also one of those women who has had as many or more male friends than female. And in the story, Jenna does have a friend, Kelly, but Jenna decides she wants to be alone.

I do agree that women don't find the crazy aspect of guys too appealing. Yes, the thing to do is walk away and lock the door.

You have to be careful with saying "all women" or "all men" anything, because it just doesn't apply.

 

[SecondCircle]

Just a few comments, because I don't want to assess a story until theres' a complete story; this is just chapter one. Also it looks like it's getting lots of comments already, some of it becoming contradictory. (So, why comment at all? Because I was asked directly to comment).

It would open fine for me if all the bad day stuff was integrated better into what followed and was given meaning to have been used for an opening (echoing what someone else posted, I think). I much prefer the "working into it" opening you provided than the one Moore suggested, though. Trying for an "everything" opening is seen as much too busy and premature overload in literature being written in this century. The prevalent technique now is to start in action and a bit of confusion and bring the reader along with you in a buildup of the background when/as/if necessary.

Blake's party comments were much too jarring for me. If there was foreshadowing of that attitude, I missed it, so when it came it was like whiplash for me. I'd want to think "oh, yeah, I was given a hint he's a bit off kilter earlier." Maybe on the basis of the entire story I'd understand better how he worked this way.

There is some wordiness and repetition in it, yes. An example is the concrete driveway. When you first said the driveway was concrete, my thought was, "I'm either going to watch for why it's important that it's concrete"--which means you've lost some of my attention--"or this is extraneous information that can be tossed." Then you later talk about her heels clicking on the concrete of the driveway. It's OK there, then--and the earlier reference is just extraneous; toss it and anything like that.

I agree (sort of) with the complaint about "litany of protagonist's looks by mirror" and thus disagree with you on that. That is both a worn out technique and a lazy one. The reader should discern for her/himself whatever needs to be known about the protagonist's looks and personality from showing elements and the conversations of other characters around and about them. The mirror trick is just lazy writing, unless a clever take can be employed with it. What I disagree with on Dream_Operator's version of the complaint is that you don't just "fuckin' tell them." You show them.

As expected, very valid advice. I'll have to watch for the unnecessary stuff, as well as the rambling that tends to bleed into my stories and cause them to be repetitive. Yeah the other three chapters are up. I should have posted the links, but it is a complete story. Hopefully, some of what everyone said will work out in the later chapters. Appreciate the advice. You've been extremely helpful.

 

[SecondCircle]

As for some of the other stuff, Pilot and Penn pretty much hit stuff nail on head. I've received pretty darn good advice and feedback from everyone, and I appreciate you all taking the time.

http://www.literotica.com/s/the-watcher-ch-02-3

http://www.literotica.com/s/the-watcher-ch-03

http://www.literotica.com/s/the-watcher-ch-04

There are the other links. Look forward to hearing more

 

[Dream_Operator]

Hmm. Quite a bit of animosity there. You're a spirited one I see. You make very good points about everything. Maybe I owe you an explanation.

Apologies for being blunt. When I look at my own writing, I am brutally honest about what works and what doesn't. I tend to do the same when looking at other writer's pieces. I didn't mean it to be an attack against you or your story.

The fact that you considered the points I raised, whether you agreed with them or not, is the whole point of the exercise.

Regarding the meat and bones: when you include a lot of non-essential material, the reader begins to wonder what is important and what is not. It all gets lost in the mix.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Florence King observed that Southern women generally prefer their men "a little bit crazy, a little bit dangerous, and a little bit religious," and I think she's right with respect to Southern men.

 

[PennLady]

Started reading Ch 2 and have to say, I'm not buying the conversation between Jenna and Kelly at all. It doesn't sound terribly natural, and Kelly seems kind of dense.

J: I think my neighbor is stalking me, peering in my windows.

K: Is he cute?

J: Yes, but he might be watching me; it's uncomfortable.

K: But he's cute!

No concern? That'd be my first reaction.

Also -- forgot to ask this regarding ch 1, but doesn't Jenna have curtains/blinds or whatever on her bedroom window?

 

[sr71plt]

Thats why I like more of the Grisham-esque writing style. I prefer the backstory to begin with, then full paragraphs later explaining what/why/how taking away from the storyline...but to each thier own. (26K posts - who am I to dispute THAT!)

Grisham doesn't start with background. He starts with absorbing action. His first book (I think) starts with a kid taking a hose out of an exhaust pipe where a guy is trying to snuff himself in a car. There's no background there at all. It hooks the reader on an action scene from out of the blue. Grisham is exactly a model of the opening approach being taken in this century.

On the heels on the driveway, I wasn't commenting on the use of heels I was commenting on when/if the driveway needed to be identified as concrete.

 

[sr71plt]

Apologies for being blunt.

I didn't see animosity in your critique. I saw straightforward discussion.

 

[sr71plt]

It's a four-chapter story, and the links for chapters 2-4 are up if you look on page 2 of chapter 1. I believe it's complete, according to SecondCircle. I haven't had a chance to read more yet myself though.

My personal point is that I'm not going to read the four chapters, so any comments I give (and I gave what I did because I was directly asked to comment) can only be fleeting and partial--and, when the whole thing is considered--may not be to the point.

What I said about Blake might be something that doesn't hold water. He suddenly was creepy and out of a character being established to me. If I'd read more and in detail I might have seen where that was done purposely and that I'm supposed to react to him that way in this work.

 

[Dream_Operator]

Grisham doesn't start with background. He starts with absorbing action. His first book (I think) starts with a kid taking a hose out of an exhaust pipe where a guy is trying to snuff himself in a car. There's no background there at all. It hooks the reader on an action scene from out of the blue. Grisham is exactly a model of the opening approach being taken in this century.

There's an excellent book I read called Hooked by Les Edgerton, that discusses modern openings, inciting incidents, overcoming obstacles, resolution, etc. It's the only book on writing, that I have read, that was worth reading.

There is a section at the end where he asks a number of questions to a group of literary agents. Such as:

What are the biggest mistakes beginning writers make?
What makes a strong opening?
etc.

I only write as a hobby, but I still found that information useful.

 

[SecondCircle]

Even if the poster was (or wasn't, granted) showing animosity, I definitely ain't saying that's a bad thing. I enjoy it when people are straight up and blunt. It shows me that something I did impacted them enough to point it out. Please don't mistake any rebuttal I might give as dispute. By sort of explaining what I was getting at or trying to do, it helps me and anyone else walk through would I was thinking, that we might discuss it and change something or figure out what worked and didn't, or what didn't exactly come across right.

They get it pilot, I asked you to look it over. Because I know you'll be thorough and helpful, like many others. And as someone who doesn't read horror, I'm interested in seeing its impact on you.

But that's the one thing I haven't seen touched. I'm amateur, obviously, and there are many flaws in my work. But in this particular work (EH) did the story resonate with anyone? Did it give anyone the creeps or make them hot and bothered by some parts? On any level? That's really what I'm trying to test. The mood, the direction, and the theme I guess. Sure I could have left out "concrete" but did anyone meet Danny? Or Ethan?

I suppose while I'm on the ramble, I might make another request. A humble one. If you find the time, read this at nighttime, when the world sleeps. Read it with the lights off. Ya know, right before you bed down. I just wanna see (as I've mentioned to another) if this new erotica chip I have syncs with the horror mainframe I have.

Thanks for all the help again. You guys don't have to come here and entertain my attempts, but you do it anyway. Awesome.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm not easily horrified. I've been around the block (and world) a couple of times. So, no, what I read of what you wrote didn't send me scurrying under the bed. Something I was reading, where I could control the pace of reception, would have a lot of difficulty doing that.

 

[PennLady]

I haven't read the whole thing, but I have to say so far that nothing was particularly scary, and part of that was because it was kind of telegraphed that Blake and his brothers were something "else." So there wasn't much suspense on that point.

 

[SecondCircle]

I must say I haven't read the first chapter since it was edited and posted. I generally try to read a bit of the feedback and get a feel for what worked and what didn't, and then go back over it. I've went over the areas we've discussed to see what I might have been thinking, that I might say it here. That's kinda how I learn. I'd like to cover what I was trying to do, and if anyone has suggestions on how I could have gotten it across better, please let me know.

Reading over the opening, I was drawn back to the bit about the oil change. Seemingly, there's no reason to include that, but the sentence that stuck out to me the most was the one that said "Jason would have remembered to change it" or something to that effect. I was trying to illustrate that Jenna is constantly reminded of her ex husband.

The mirror trick was a bit of the same. Pilot is right to point out that while it's a creative way to describe a character and show what they look like, its a path that is well trampled. But I wasn't merely using it as a way to describe the character. Jenna wasn't just looking at her outer self, but her inner self. She was looking for what went wrong, why her husband had found her so lacking as to cheat.

With both of these instances, I was attempting to show that without her husband, she is vulnerable and alone. If her husband had been there, none of the events in the story would have happened.

JamesB kinda hit that in his short synopsis. This is just what I was going for. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I could have achieved this differently?

 

[moore4087]

Second Circle: Just my $.02 - From my standpoint most guys who cheat are looking for the thrill of the chase, because its gone and the bills and kids and so on, now dominate their lives. Males generally have short term and selective memories...

Also most divorced/seperated women I know are not victims. They're hurt and angry over the betrayal, but most that I've known eliminated everything that would remind them of the prior partner, and several retaliated with "revenge with the best friend" trysts... That doesnt strike me as vulnerable, but again its your story and world. For the most part it's a good read.

Penn Lady: You are correct, the use of "all" is a poor way to portray a viewpoint as by saying many. I just related my wife's beliefs... Now she is no wilting flower but several times she confides in her friends over coffee or shopping or whenever... <smile> Usually because I'm an "clumsy brute oaf with no feelings". Thanks for the feedback.

Dream Operator: Thanks for the tip about Hooked. I'll look it up and get it. anything that doesn't kill me makes me better

Sr71plt: I remember the Grisham book your talking about. Perhaps a better example would be The Runaway Jury - it opens with the courtroom scene and protagonist's appearance, then its all backstory for the next three chapters so you understand who the inner circle players are and why its they are in the courtroom. I didnt mean to imply everything goes into the first two sentences, but key points are introduced that need fleshing out in later chapters. (my wife constantly is reading scripts submitted and so many are hacked/slashed and ultimately rejected because they don't connect the dots that the reader can follow)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

On a general note: We live in a time when a significant chunk of the population demands that every aspect and event of life be reduced to enjoyable, tasty morsels that require no chewing or even digestion.

Editors demand bread-crumb logic trails for the dolts yet ignore the element of mystery other readers want.

Why is Homer Simpson the editors target audience?

 

[LadyVer]

On a general note: We live in a time when a significant chunk of the population demands that every aspect and event of life be reduced to enjoyable, tasty morsels that require no chewing or even digestion.

Editors demand bread-crumb logic trails for the dolts yet ignore the element of mystery other readers want.

Why is Homer Simpson the editors target audience?

Every writer and editor is different. Personally, I don't know any editors whose target audience is Homer. It's usually the author, on Lit anyway.

 

[CarolinaPeach]

Thanks for the input. I'm sure the tapping at the window will be understood with what is to come, no pun intended.

I didn't realize I did it but you're right about the repetition of the content in the paragraphs. I'm sure many know by now I ramble and it shows in my stories. The best I can remember, I do start to use a little internal thought and feeling from Jenna in the later chapters. More things begin to happen so maybe it gets better. I appreciate you pointing it out, you've been really helpful. It's something I'll try to watch for future projects.

EH is not my thing, but I read part of the first chapter. Her masturbation is INCREDIBLE. I found the interruption of it disgusting, but that is probably why I have never read an EH story. But man that was HOT.

I would agree with the general trend of critique... the intro is lengthy without a strong hook, and a bit wordy. A failing I am known to have. Due to my editor's critique, I just removed two pages of intro. It was painful, but it had to be done.

JAMESBJOHNSON said this in my thread: "Every story should be an answer to some life conflict or question. The answer rides in the wagon. The rest of it is constructing the team that pulls the wagon, and building the road the wagon travels."

He said it really well. I have kept that in mind in further writing. Also, my editor has instructed me to ask WHY? Why is something there? This has led to some serious pruning and condensing that will make the story better. (At least I hope it will.)

You write very well. Just condense and prune a bit, is my advice. The basic bones are there.

 

[SecondCircle]

EH is not my thing, but I read part of the first chapter. Her masturbation is INCREDIBLE. I found the interruption of it disgusting, but that is probably why I have never read an EH story. But man that was HOT.

I would agree with the general trend of critique... the intro is lengthy without a strong hook, and a bit wordy. A failing I am known to have. Due to my editor's critique, I just removed two pages of intro. It was painful, but it had to be done.

JAMESBJOHNSON said this in my thread: "Every story should be an answer to some life conflict or question. The answer rides in the wagon. The rest of it is constructing the team that pulls the wagon, and building the road the wagon travels."

He said it really well. I have kept that in mind in further writing. Also, my editor has instructed me to ask WHY? Why is something there? This has led to some serious pruning and condensing that will make the story better. (At least I hope it will.)

You write very well. Just condense and prune a bit, is my advice. The basic bones are there.

Thank you for the feedback Peach. If you liked the first chapter, there's more of that to come in the series.

Ah yes my rambling and drawn out sections of story. It is a weak spot of mine, and your editor is very wise to have you asking "why". It's something I have to work on as well. If it doesn't need to be told, don't include it. My problem is I tell too much around what needs to be told or "ramble". So you're spot on with that.

Don't worry about being disgusted or what have you. As the series progresses, it only gets... stranger, I guess. EH isn't for everyone, though I do try to rope in a fan base to a "darker" version of the category. Hope you stick around.

In any case, thanks for the feedback. It all helps in the end. Looking forward to more stories from you.

 

[CarolinaPeach]

Haha, I just checked... I reduced 1422 words to 436 with my editor's help.

 

[sr71plt]

I just reread the "scary" scene of the first chapter. It got too bogged down in description (which, in the end, didn't give me a good image of the monster anyway) for me for it to be scary. Scary for me may include build up of tension, but it would require a quick shock or two (or three, in succession). Much harder to do in writing than on the screen, because the reader has his/her own separate control on the pace of the read. Nothing here shocked me because I was trying too hard to get control over all of the description.

 

[SecondCircle]

I just reread the "scary" scene of the first chapter. It got too bogged down in description (which, in the end, didn't give me a good image of the monster anyway) for me for it to be scary. Scary for me may include build up of tension, but it would require a quick shock or two (or three, in succession). Much harder to do in writing than on the screen, because the reader has his/her own separate control on the pace of the read. Nothing here shocked me because I was trying too hard to get control over all of the description.

I can definitely see what you mean. It is harder to write scares than to show them. This was merely a dream of Jenna's, and you weren't wrong to be shocked or necessarily scared at this point in the story. In fact your assessment about the pacing is entirely true.

Instead of shocks or instant scares, (which are near impossible in writing) I'm trying to hone in on an overall atmosphere. Sort of something that gives you the creeps or eerie thoughts after stepping away from the story. The chapters that follow continue to build on this (I hope) and though vivid description is included, its my intent to create an air of tension and sort of horrific awe.

I'm not badgering anyone to read the whole series, but chapter one is barely scratching the surface.

So your take on the story at this point is pretty well accurate. Thanks again for the feedback.