A Request

[SecondCircle]

So many have heard me blabbing about dabbling in the EH category and trying to hone my skills therein. I've made another attempt at a story, and I was hoping you guys could give me so feedback on how it turned out. I have skin like a rhinoceros so lay it on me if you want. It only helps me in the end.

Now, I realize I'm asking quite a bit, its a 4 part series. But just let me know what you guys think and if it works as both erotica and horror.

http://www.literotica.com/s/the-watcher-ch-01

Here's the first link. Hope you like it. Thanks.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I wanna read it again anuther time. I think its me. A collection of Poppy Z.Brite horror stories arrived today, and they aint doing anything for me. So I suspect my insensitivity to horror fare is mostly me today.

I mean, I got no gripes with your writing. So don't get the wrong idea.

 

[slyc_willie]

I've only read the first chapter so far, so my comments are limited to that.

I liked the descriptions of the characters. I got the idea that Jenna is self-conscious and insecure. Jason left her, and she feels undesireable. Now, there's a sexy new neighbor who may or may not have given her the kind of attention she craves.

It's a good, plausible setup. There's some interesting description, like the tapping at the window and the other noises. It makes me wonder why the peeping tom would want to draw attention to the fact that he's watching her. What does he have in mind?

My criticism, however, is that the story is practically nothing but narrative. Yes, I understand that you're setting the scene, and there's very little interaction between characters. But paragraph A describes this, and paragraph B describes that . . . and on it goes until paragraph Z.

Just my critique, but I would suggest breaking it up with some internal dialogue, at least. Something, anything, to disrupt the monotony.

 

[LadyVer]

I fell asleep yesterday while reviewing a sci fi story. It was in the middle of the story where there were consecutive pages of sex scenes that had very little dialogue. The writer is a good writer, but when there isn't much dialogue and there's a lot of repetition, the reader may very well nod off instead of wack off. (I was reviewing only to decide if I would edit. I did mention to the author I took an ad hoc nap and why. Anyway, I decided to accept the editing project.)

 

[sr71plt]

Anyway, I decided to accept the editing project.)

Good. You probably need the sleep.

 

[LadyVer]

Good. You probably need the sleep.

I also told the author that the story was his, not mine, and that whatever revisions he would or wouldn't make were his call. Besides, I'm not a professional editor nor a sci fi expert.

 

[SecondCircle]

I've only read the first chapter so far, so my comments are limited to that.

I liked the descriptions of the characters. I got the idea that Jenna is self-conscious and insecure. Jason left her, and she feels undesireable. Now, there's a sexy new neighbor who may or may not have given her the kind of attention she craves.

It's a good, plausible setup. There's some interesting description, like the tapping at the window and the other noises. It makes me wonder why the peeping tom would want to draw attention to the fact that he's watching her. What does he have in mind?

My criticism, however, is that the story is practically nothing but narrative. Yes, I understand that you're setting the scene, and there's very little interaction between characters. But paragraph A describes this, and paragraph B describes that . . . and on it goes until paragraph Z.

Just my critique, but I would suggest breaking it up with some internal dialogue, at least. Something, anything, to disrupt the monotony.

Thanks for the input. I'm sure the tapping at the window will be understood with what is to come, no pun intended.

I didn't realize I did it but you're right about the repetition of the content in the paragraphs. I'm sure many know by now I ramble and it shows in my stories. The best I can remember, I do start to use a little internal thought and feeling from Jenna in the later chapters. More things begin to happen so maybe it gets better. I appreciate you pointing it out, you've been really helpful. It's something I'll try to watch for future projects.

 

[PennLady]

I just read this and I have to agree about the "telling" and the repetition. Just in the first paragraph, this sentence bothered me: She hadn't changed the oil in quite some time, and it was something she had neglected to do several times. It's clunky as well. If she has neglected to do it, than 'several times' is unnecessary. You could even combine things: "Jenna groaned when she saw the oil light flashing on the dash, reminding her of how forgetful she'd been lately."

I also noticed a tendency for you to state something, then backtrack to explain it, and I think you'd be better off just to state it out from the beginning. The second graph starts with the author telling us Jenna is remembering her day, and then we get three paragraphs about it. You could shorten it to one, probably. Again, as an example:

"Jenna was relieved to be almost home. Her day had started off badly when she spilled coffee on her nicest outfit and had to change. It went on from there: she'd nearly had an accident, was ogled by the construction crew working next door to her office, had to work through lunch, and fought off more advances from her boss -- her married boss. Home had never looked so good."

A couple of details about the setting got me as well. She's in this cookie-cutter-ish development, with little space between houses (sounds like my parents' place, actually ) - yet she has a "long driveway". How? Small lots don't lend themselves to long driveways, unless perhaps the driveway is shared by a few houses. Also, I haven't seen a concrete driveway in ages, and not in a development like this. They're always blacktop or asphalt or whatever.

I was also curious, because I don't think you said, if the houses are one- or two-story. Again, most places I see are two stories, but perhaps not. I do think a second-story bedroom might add a little suspense -- how did the hand get up to the second floor? Just a thought.

After Jenna looks in the mirror, you again go to the backtrack mode. It's rather passive, and I think you'd be better off just stating how Jenna passed the time. (Minor note: I've never seen "Jenna" as a nickname for Jennifer. Why can't her name just be Jenna?) Do we really need to know about her status with Kelly? All we really need to know is that she wanted to be alone.

Her thoughts in bed are fine. I can certainly understand not concentrating, things like that, and I think it fits in well with the day she had. But then it frays -- she stares "longingly" at her own legs? And I can also buy that she wants to look nice, or even sexy; the way you look affects the way you feel, I can definitely go with that, but I'm not sure about the way you describe it. What is 'moderately provocative,' after all?

These are my initial thoughts (and plenty of them, right? you must be thinking). I'll stop there, although I know that's only about half the story. If you'd like more thoughts, I'm sure I can find some.

Good luck.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

As a general observation from the FWIW Department, I wish writers offered tutorial posts to explain how to do one thing or another they do well. In the history of Earth I don't believe its ever been done.

 

[sr71plt]

For the most part I don't think writers are all that objective or knowledgeable about what they themselves do well. Might be an idea for their appreciative readers to note that about a writer's individual technique (like that you do gritty well).

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I read your story again.

Someone needs to write a tutorial for how to scare the crap outta readers, I don't know how and most EH writers don't, either. Plenty do it once and never do it again.

You got some of what I call the 'opening band' phenomena. Like opening bands the initial writing has nuthin much to do with what follows it, its a time killer till the good stuff comes out to perform.

Jenna's conflict is her attachment to Jason colliding with her libido. And the conflict is colored by her efforts to save 'face.' In the end a monster gets her off against her will. Good resolution.

I'd go with an opening band that stages Jenna's libido crisis. That is, she's irascible cuz she aint getting any, and she vents with her boss, jerks who cut her off, and guys who eye-ball fuck her. Maybe go with her masturbating while she imagines Jason, then toss in the peeping tom to scare her, followed by the lights going off, monster mash, etc.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

For the most part I don't think writers are all that objective or knowledgeable about what they themselves do well. Might be an idea for their appreciative readers to note that about a writer's individual technique (like that you do gritty well).

What is GRITTY? Showering with LAVA?

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, lord. Can't even take a compliment. Don't be stupid. You know what gritty means in literature.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Oh, lord. Can't even take a compliment. Don't be stupid. You know what gritty means in literature.

Actually I don't know. I looked up the word. RESOLUTE? HARDY? BRAVE?

RESOLUTE IN THE FACE OF CONSTANT RIDICULE AND CONTEMPT? Do I got the flavor right?

 

[SecondCircle]

By all means, PennLady, continue with your assessments. Your feedback is always helpful, and you are able to point out things that most overlook. I wouldn't care if you analyzed the entire series like this. It can't hurt anything.

As for the arrangement of the neighborhood and the concrete driveway, I'm looking at it now. The houses are pretty close together, (perhaps not as close as one might think) and they are all set pretty far from the road. Long narrow lots, and you are correct that most of the houses have black top driveways, but there's concrete here or there. Perhaps "cookie cutter" wasn't the best description, even if the houses look similar. Now that I think of it, that phrase sorta points to the developments that sprung up around the 50's out in California and Arizona.

The stating and explaining is something I often can't shake. Explaining her work day that way just sounds rushed to me, though I agree it saves the reader some grief. From her POV, but in the third person, the two blended too much and came off as "tell not show" instead of her own line of thinking. So that's true, I just have to find better ways to write a person's line of thought.

Met a chick named Jenna at my friend's house a while back. I just pulled it out and used it, but I do remember that particular girl hated being called Jennifer, and everyone just called her Jenna, not Jen or anything else. Not sure why, but I never really thought about it till you said that.

The other stuff can be subjective I guess, but it's all in the way it comes across, so I've gotta be mindful of that. That's the whole idea I think. How the reader perceives everything.

The suggestion of the "hand on the second story window" bit, that's pretty awesome, but it wouldn't fit in the later chapters. There becomes some confusion over who exactly it is at the window, and that would be too much of a tip off to Jenna.

You make me laugh at my own words. Out of context, moderately provocative sounds like the dumbest thing I've ever written, but I know what I was trying to get at. A skirt comes to mind, not a mini skirt or leather skirt, just a skirt. They do enough to catch the eye and tempt the imagination, but aren't so revealing that they are inappropriate.

As I said, probe the other chapters if you wish. You can only enlighten me, and as I've said before I respond only to discuss the story and tell you what I had meant writing it, not to debate you.

We... we're "long post" people, huh?

 

[SecondCircle]

I read your story again.

Someone needs to write a tutorial for how to scare the crap outta readers, I don't know how and most EH writers don't, either. Plenty do it once and never do it again.

You got some of what I call the 'opening band' phenomena. Like opening bands the initial writing has nuthin much to do with what follows it, its a time killer till the good stuff comes out to perform.

Jenna's conflict is her attachment to Jason colliding with her libido. And the conflict is colored by her efforts to save 'face.' In the end a monster gets her off against her will. Good resolution.

I'd go with an opening band that stages Jenna's libido crisis. That is, she's irascible cuz she aint getting any, and she vents with her boss, jerks who cut her off, and guys who eye-ball fuck her. Maybe go with her masturbating while she imagines Jason, then toss in the peeping tom to scare her, followed by the lights going off, monster mash, etc.

Ha! Pretty nice breakdown. If there's one thing I like about you, you're down to business and right to the point.

As for your tutorial, I'm not sure it'd work, because everyone scares differently, and we're all scared of different stuff. Just wanted to see if I'm scratching anyone's surface.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Ha! Pretty nice breakdown. If there's one thing I like about you, you're down to business and right to the point.

As for your tutorial, I'm not sure it'd work, because everyone scares differently, and we're all scared of different stuff. Just wanted to see if I'm scratching anyone's surface.

Its amazing how much pussy you can get simply asking for it politely.

Youre right about the scary stuff. What scares the crap outta one is nuthin to another.

FWIW your story has the essential ingredients and simply requires lining its ducks up in the right order.

 

[SecondCircle]

I read your story again.

Someone needs to write a tutorial for how to scare the crap outta readers, I don't know how and most EH writers don't, either. Plenty do it once and never do it again.

You got some of what I call the 'opening band' phenomena. Like opening bands the initial writing has nuthin much to do with what follows it, its a time killer till the good stuff comes out to perform.

Jenna's conflict is her attachment to Jason colliding with her libido. And the conflict is colored by her efforts to save 'face.' In the end a monster gets her off against her will. Good resolution.

I'd go with an opening band that stages Jenna's libido crisis. That is, she's irascible cuz she aint getting any, and she vents with her boss, jerks who cut her off, and guys who eye-ball fuck her. Maybe go with her masturbating while she imagines Jason, then toss in the peeping tom to scare her, followed by the lights going off, monster mash, etc.

On the other hand, I might add, your accurate account of the "opening band" syndrome could be true for just about anything.

Everything has a main point to it, or a climax, or central conflict. I'm just not sure we'd get there without all the monotonous details that precede that point.

I guess a lot could have been left out about Jenna, but I wanted her, more than anything, to be human. I wanted her to have that scar of betrayal, and the feeling of inferiority where her love life is concerned. I wanted her to be that "shy girl next door type" that seems stereotypical of the characters here at lit. You know the type, shy lady turns to sex vixen. But honestly, though she was reserved and timid, deep down I wanted her to BE wanted.

I wanted her mad at things we would logical get mad at, or let herself go the way she did with Blake. It's one reason I included Kelly. Peer pressure, maybe. Perhaps Kelly is twins with the inner animal that Jenna wants to let loose. Secretly, maybe she does want to be just like Kelly. Maybe she should screw the guy or at least hit on him. Maybe I should have illuminated that more.

Dammit I ramble yet again. Sometimes its hard to breath in my head with all the whirling of characters and plotlines. Its one reason my stories turn out the way they do.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

On the other hand, I might add, your accurate account of the "opening band" syndrome could be true for just about anything.

Everything has a main point to it, or a climax, or central conflict. I'm just not sure we'd get there without all the monotonous details that precede that point.

I guess a lot could have been left out about Jenna, but I wanted her, more than anything, to be human. I wanted her to have that scar of betrayal, and the feeling of inferiority where her love life is concerned. I wanted her to be that "shy girl next door type" that seems stereotypical of the characters here at lit. You know the type, shy lady turns to sex vixen. But honestly, though she was reserved and timid, deep down I wanted her to BE wanted.

I wanted her mad at things we would logical get mad at, or let herself go the way she did with Blake. It's one reason I included Kelly. Peer pressure, maybe. Perhaps Kelly is twins with the inner animal that Jenna wants to let loose. Secretly, maybe she does want to be just like Kelly. Maybe she should screw the guy or at least hit on him. Maybe I should have illuminated that more.

Dammit I ramble yet again. Sometimes its hard to breath in my head with all the whirling of characters and plotlines. Its one reason my stories turn out the way they do.

Think of THE WIZARD OF OZ and its monochrome intro back in Kansas. Its the opening band but essential to what happens in Oz. The story would suffer without it.

 

[lovecraft68]

As a general observation from the FWIW Department, I wish writers offered tutorial posts to explain how to do one thing or another they do well. In the history of Earth I don't believe its ever been done.

The problem is a lot of writers are instinctual and even if they're told what they do well by fans it can't be explained.

Also even if it can be explained it cannot be bottled. You do write with an edge. That edge I wager is from life experience. Some well to do Oxford kid is not going to come across with that edge, its not within their life experience.

I've been told I nail dark and melancholy. I would have no clue how to explain it and if I could only a certain type of person could use that information.

Whether they admit or realize it many writers write from within.

I feel a I have a good eye for "posers" people trying to convey dark/edgy with no clue.

Caped Capons I think you call them.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The problem is a lot of writers are instinctual and even if they're told what they do well by fans it can't be explained.

Also even if it can be explained it cannot be bottled. You do write with an edge. That edge I wager is from life experience. Some well to do Oxford kid is not going to come across with that edge, its not within their life experience.

I've been told I nail dark and melancholy. I would have no clue how to explain it and if I could only a certain type of person could use that information.

Whether they admit or realize it many writers write from within.

I feel a I have a good eye for "posers" people trying to convey dark/edgy with no clue.

Caped Capons I think you call them.

I'd forgotten Caped Capons!

My parents were collateral players in organized crime, and some of their associates looked like evil trouble about to erupt. So I grew up exposed to all the violence and people who work in the industry. It wasn't romantic at all. Like I'd sit at the dining room table doing homework while the parents discussed murder like it was the Easter parade they were planning. I went with my old man to see his old ex-con buddies, recruiting help for whatever. I usta think my old man was a genius cuz he knew so much about car tags.

Youre right, tho, plenty of people think I make shit up. I just submitted a tale about Floridas prison camps of the 1870s. I researched the shit out of it to get all the details right. But readers will think its too bizarre for truth.

 

[Dream_Operator]

Here's my thoughts:

1) I didn't understand the opening. You go on and on about her having a bad day, but this doesn't lead to anything that advances the plot, or hooks the reader.

2) The story is called The Watcher, the MC get "watched" by the construction crew, her boss, and finally by her neighbor, who ends their brief conversation by saying, "I'll be watching you."

Geez, wonder what's going to happen next? Not very subtle or clever. It would have been more interesting and suspenseful if she thought she was being watched (at least at first), but wasn't sure.

3) A lot of what you have written isn't relevant to the story. Who cares what kind of closet she has? Or that she forgot to change the oil? Why is it important?

4) I found the writing repetitive. You use the word "she" over three hundred times -- often starting three or more consecutive sentences with it. You need to vary your sentence structure and eliminate some of the unnecessary crap. I thought the pace dragged and quickly began skimming ahead.

5) I hate it when characters consider themselves in the mirror. To quote the brilliant Christopher Moore -- "You wanna tell me what she looks like, just fucking tell me what she looks like."

6) One last thing that struck me as odd. The writing seems to be in American English (based on your spelling of favorite and neighbor), but you describe the distance between the houses in meters, which an American would never do.

 

[LadyVer]

I'd forgotten Caped Capons!

My parents were collateral players in organized crime, and some of their associates looked like evil trouble about to erupt. So I grew up exposed to all the violence and people who work in the industry. It wasn't romantic at all. Like I'd sit at the dining room table doing homework while the parents discussed murder like it was the Easter parade they were planning. I went with my old man to see his old ex-con buddies, recruiting help for whatever. I usta think my old man was a genius cuz he knew so much about car tags.

Youre right, tho, plenty of people think I make shit up. I just submitted a tale about Floridas prison camps of the 1870s. I researched the shit out of it to get all the details right. But readers will think its too bizarre for truth.

Interesting. This explains a few things.

 

[SecondCircle]

Here's my thoughts:

1) I didn't understand the opening. You go on and on about her having a bad day, but this doesn't lead to anything that advances the plot, or hooks the reader.

2) The story is called The Watcher, the MC get "watched" by the construction crew, her boss, and finally by her neighbor, who ends their brief conversation by saying, "I'll be watching you."

Geez, wonder what's going to happen next? Not very subtle or clever. It would have been more interesting and suspenseful if she thought she was being watched (at least at first), but wasn't sure.

3) A lot of what you have written isn't relevant to the story. Who cares what kind of closet she has? Or that she forgot to change the oil? Why is it important?

4) I found the writing repetitive. You use the word "she" over three hundred times -- often starting three or more consecutive sentences with it. You need to vary your sentence structure and eliminate some of the unnecessary crap. I thought the pace dragged and quickly began skimming ahead.

5) I hate it when characters consider themselves in the mirror. To quote the brilliant Christopher Moore -- "You wanna tell me what she looks like, just fucking tell me what she looks like."

6) One last thing that struck me as odd. The writing seems to be in American English (based on your spelling of favorite and neighbor), but you describe the distance between the houses in meters, which an American would never do.

Hmm. Quite a bit of animosity there. You're a spirited one I see. You make very good points about everything. Maybe I owe you an explanation.

All that stuff in the opening was me trying to make her relatable on some level. Everyone has had shitty days like that, and I was hoping people would identify with her in a way.

The watcher? Of course. It all ties together. But if you read the following chapters, it isn't exactly what one would think. It ain't all black and white.

I suppose the descriptions of her closet aren't needed. But if we started slashing away at meat like that, we'll be left with bones. Sure some stuff is irrelevant to the overall tale. But some of it is character building and making the world seem real and alive, rather than have stick figure characters in a rushed sexual encounter without the hustle and bustle of real life problems and emotions.

I'm not sure what I could do for the "she's". I tried to ensure that I didnt start every sentence that way, and the compound sentences I'm fond of were something I tried to arrange differently each time. I'm not sure how to refer to her other than her name, she, her, etc.

You're advice about the mirror I cannot agree with. Thanks for the tip and all, but simply telling how a character looks goes against about every single thing I've ever heard and read about describing someone. You have to find ways to creatively describe someone rather than just stating their qualities.

Yes american civilians use yards rather than meters. But not american military. We usually used metric. Not sure why that matters entirely.

Sorry for the rebuttal and all, and I do appreciate the feedback. Just wanted to explain what I was thinking. Its my job as a writer to convey the events in a way that is understandable and enjoyable. Hopefully none of this robbed the experience of that.

 

[moore4087]

To Second Circle: mine is not a complaint but an opinion and a suggestion. Dream Operator is crude but right IMHO. I am a rookie when it comes to this genre, but some things are universal. Your first paragraph should be backstory (Long ago in a Galaxy far far away...) To introduce the main character doing something isnt bad but wouldn't a point in time start work better?

"Jenna Jones fled her job in the city where she worked as a graphic artist. Her Friday had started badly at home, spilling coffee on her grey pantsuit as she rushed not to be late, alas nothing she tried wearing worked, forcing her to change the whole ensemble and she arrived late to work once again. The entire day was no better and by 4pm she was stressed out and ready to scream.
Jenna lived 20 minutes away from work and she was already daydreaming as westbound traffic crawled along the highway home. The angry red light told her her oil had to be changed, it was something that Jason, her now ex-boyfriend would have taken care of for her. Him taking care of her "needs" is what she wanted now, but it was his choice to leave - he was gone and she was alone for the first time in a while."

I deliberately changed some of the facts of your story but do you think it opens a little better, allowing the who,what why,where & when and how aspects to begin your story? You now have a purpose to the closet (clothes) to her attitude (grumpy,unhappy) and I havent even started the "hook" of the Watcher title yet.

I agree that the story flows from the writer and their world, yet the descriptions are usually our dreams, not our limitations. I had to learn the hard way because I'm a hard head - create the universe, create the situation, create the outcome THEN create your character! The inner circle needs to be believeable, warts and all, the antagonist must be competitive with the protagonist for the goal to be reality based (a glance is admiration, a stare is invasive) and keeping it steady throughout is the foe of all writers IMHO.

I hope you find this helpful and worthy advice. if not at least I feel better having gotten it out of my system