A Rant about Feedback

[polynices]

I think I'm only in this, polynices, because of your characterization of someone commenting on your punctuation style distracting their read as an idiot. They may be an idiot for the way the tell you, but they aren't an idiot for being distracted ...
If a comment irritates me this much, especially when I think it's ill informed rather than voice a legitimate--to me--perspective, I just ignore it or delete it (which is a nice feature here) and move on.

1. I think we're getting fairly close to agreement, actually. I accept that the commenter can't be called an idiot merely for being distracted by my use of ' instead of " , but I think, as you say, that he was an idiot because of the way he told me about it - because of his rudeness and so on. In fact, that's what I meant originally and it was my central point - that he and some others make this kind of comment non-constructively. That is, their intention isn't really to 'help the writer to improve' but to score a cheap, malicious point.

2. On deletion of comments: If you remember, my original post (at the start of the thread) said I'd finally begun, albeit reluctantly, to delete objectionable comments - so you're preaching to the (newly) converted there. (I also said, by the way, that I welcomed and was grateful for the vast majority of comments I've had over the last two years or so. Most commenters are not malicious. The malicious group I'm talking about is still just a small minority, however irritating they may be.)

3. On the issue of selecting styles for specific audiences, I fully accept that a commercial author who is trying to sell his/her work in a given market, e.g. North America, ought to conform to local expections. That's why British authors' books usually have their spelling adjusted for US editions, and vice-versa. There's no argument. If I were lucky enough to have a US edition of a book published, of course I'd accept editorial changes of that kind. However, as I think Epmd607 said, the vast majority of people who post stories on Literotica aren't doing it with any kind of commercial intention, so the case is different. And, as I said earlier, stories posted on Literotica are free gifts. I think that changes things drastically. We're not writing for the market. We're writing for ourselves in the hope that somebody out there will enjoy what we wrote. I think most readers recognise that. I'm merely criticizing the few that don't.

4. On the issue of the 'snobby' English - I agree. There's a tendency for people to claim priority over the language - to say 'Our version is right and yours is wrong.' It's raised its head on this thread a couple of times, unfortunately. I'm not in that camp. Another poster pointed out that a lot of expressions in American English are derived from seventeenth century English, and that it's the British who've changed since, not the Americans. That's absolutely true. But of course, it doesn't make either version of the language better or worse. They're just different, as somebody pointed out much earlier on this thread. Priority is irrelevant. All languages change constantly. I'm critical of people on either side of the language divide who are needlessly intolerant. Claims of superiority from either side are simply idiotic.

5. A final point about the need to write to an audience's expectations: This is a slightly off-topic thought, and it's tentative. Isn't one of the central problems of so-called 'creative writing' that the author has to balance the need to meet audience expectations against a requirement for originality? Publishers, of course, are always looking for a sure thing - hence the number of clone books published after a new idea is an unexpected hit. But they also want originality, even though they see it as risky, because readers don't actually want to buy the same old thing repeatedly. There's a tension betwen conformity and novelty - and that I think, is why any kind of imaginative writing is so difficult.

Anyway, that was just a thought. It doesn't have a direct impact on what we've been discussing here.

Cheers,

- polynices

 

[York]

I think if you look back, the original poster never accused the anonymous critics of being idiots, just rude. I believe it was York who introduced the term 'idiot'.

You believe incorrectly, old boy.

I have to say though, I agree completely with Polynices and largely disagree with sr71plt (at least on Poly's original point). Yes, you have to write to please the readers, but the idea that double quotation marks would spoil someone's enjoyment of a story is just weird. Also, sr71plt's point about writing for a market here and doing in the correct style is invalid, as we're not presenting it to one country, but all countries. Maybe we should have an American English part of the site and a British English section, and have all the British English authors' efforts "translated" for those unwilling or unable to cope with something slightly different.

I have to agree with someone's point about the Brits sometimes coming across as snotty, I'm sure I do it at times (and I apologise for it if I do). I must confess I get frustrated that it's easy for us to accept American English, but it often doesn't seem to be the other way round.

I've learned something new though, I didn't realise that double quotation marks were American convention and single British. Double makes more sense to me as the singles just look like an apostrophe.

 

[Tarakin]

In Germany we use the " for speech and the ' for thoughts. We also start speeches with a lowered " btw, so a sentence in German looks like this:

„Hello, do we know each other?" he said, adding in thought: ,I wouldn't mind getting to know you much better'.

If you send this to Lit it gets rejected btw, I always have to change the „ to " before I do that.

 

[Bianca_Sommerland]

You know, it's funny but I just realized now that if I hadn't changed my spell check from Canadian, to North American, I would have had some problems with spelling too! I changed it because most of my submissions were going to the US and I didn't want something so obscure to be a reason for rejections.

I've also had to go through work and remove the 'ey' from my characters speach (unless they were actually Canadian). I suppose when it come down to it, your own motivations are what's important. If you are writing for yourself and your fans then the critics don't matter. If you're hear to learn about ways to improve then you take what you can use and toss the rest.

Whatever you decide a good rant is sometimes helpful when you find something eating at you. So rant away and then get back to work. I find it feels good to press on despite the negative remarks. Good luck!

 

[Teloz]

You believe incorrectly, old boy.

I have to say though, I agree completely with Polynices and largely disagree with sr71plt (at least on Poly's original point). Yes, you have to write to please the readers, but the idea that double quotation marks would spoil someone's enjoyment of a story is just weird. Also, sr71plt's point about writing for a market here and doing in the correct style is invalid, as we're not presenting it to one country, but all countries. Maybe we should have an American English part of the site and a British English section, and have all the British English authors' efforts "translated" for those unwilling or unable to cope with something slightly different.

I have to agree with someone's point about the Brits sometimes coming across as snotty, I'm sure I do it at times (and I apologise for it if I do). I must confess I get frustrated that it's easy for us to accept American English, but it often doesn't seem to be the other way round.

I've learned something new though, I didn't realise that double quotation marks were American convention and single British. Double makes more sense to me as the singles just look like an apostrophe.

I do apologise old chap, we can't all be perfect, wot?

I'll second that completely.

Single quotes are one less key press, when you type as well as I do, that matters!

 

[driphoney]

1. I think we're getting fairly close to agreement, actually. I accept that the commenter can't be called an idiot merely for being distracted by my use of ' instead of " , but I think, as you say, that he was an idiot because of the way he told me about it - because of his rudeness and so on.

2.(I also said, by the way, that I welcomed and was grateful for the vast majority of comments I've had over the last two years or so. Most commenters are not malicious. The malicious group I'm talking about is still just a small minority, however irritating they may be.)

3. On the issue of selecting styles for specific audiences, I fully accept that a commercial author who is trying to sell his/her work in a given market, e.g. North America, ought to conform to local expections. That's why British authors' books usually have their spelling adjusted for US editions, and vice-versa. And, as I said earlier, stories posted on Literotica are free gifts. I think that changes things drastically. We're not writing for the market. We're writing for ourselves in the hope that somebody out there will enjoy what we wrote. I think most readers recognise that. I'm merely criticizing the few that don't.

4. On the issue of the 'snobby' English - I agree. There's a tendency for people to claim priority over the language - to say 'Our version is right and yours is wrong.' It's raised its head on this thread a couple of times, unfortunately. I'm not in that camp. Another poster pointed out that a lot of expressions in American English are derived from seventeenth century English, and that it's the British who've changed since, not the Americans. That's absolutely true. But of course, it doesn't make either version of the language better or worse. They're just different, as somebody pointed out much earlier on this thread. Priority is irrelevant. All languages change constantly. I'm critical of people on either side of the language divide who are needlessly intolerant. Claims of superiority from either side are simply idiotic.

5. A final point about the need to write to an audience's expectations: This is a slightly off-topic thought, and it's tentative. Isn't one of the central problems of so-called 'creative writing' that the author has to balance the need to meet audience expectations against a requirement for originality? Publishers, of course, are always looking for a sure thing - hence the number of clone books published after a new idea is an unexpected hit. But they also want originality, even though they see it as risky, because readers don't actually want to buy the same old thing repeatedly. There's a tension betwen conformity and novelty - and that I think, is why any kind of imaginative writing is so difficult. [Edited just for space issues -- dh]

I think all your thoughts were excellent.

I would like to point out ('cause I'm crazy) in regards to your point number three, that it is specifically that very reason--Americans who read British works have them converted--and the fact that most US-ers don't make it out of America, other than a two week package deal to Mexico, that they don't know there is a difference in spelling and grammar. So, amateur British writers can be upset all day long when their stories are posted on Lit, an American based web-site, with I'm betting a majority (by sheer population numbers) of American readers, and they generate occasionally undeserved and insulting feedback, but it's not going to fix the problem. Getting upset at fellow writers, who are American, when they try to explain it, doesn't help either. I'm very sorry my British acquaintances feel slighted.

I love the international flavor of this web-site, and truly enjoy the mingling of cultures. I love chatting with Brits and laughing over differences in our not-so-common language. And don't worry, even American writers (moi!) get hammered occasionally for going outside accepted norms. Oh, that was your last point. Yeah, I feel ya on that one.

Anyway, nice points and very well laid out. They might have been 'just a thought', but they culminated in being one great one!

 

[Teloz]

I think all your thoughts were excellent.

I would like to point out ('cause I'm crazy) in regards to your point number three, that it is specifically that very reason--Americans who read British works have them converted--and the fact that most US-ers don't make it out of America, other than a two week package deal to Mexico, that they don't know there is a difference in spelling and grammar. So, amateur British writers can be upset all day long when their stories are posted on Lit, an American based web-site, with I'm betting a majority (by sheer population numbers) of American readers, and they generate occasionally undeserved and insulting feedback, but it's not going to fix the problem. Getting upset at fellow writers, who are American, when they try to explain it, doesn't help either. I'm very sorry my British acquaintances feel slighted.

I love the international flavor of this web-site, and truly enjoy the mingling of cultures. I love chatting with Brits and laughing over differences in our not-so-common language. And don't worry, even American writers (moi!) get hammered occasionally for going outside accepted norms. Oh, that was your last point. Yeah, I feel ya on that one.

Anyway, nice points and very well laid out. They might have been 'just a thought', but they culminated in being one great one!

I don't think any of us Brits said we felt slighted, I think the ire was generated by the idea that we should write "American" or not bother! I don't think it was directed at the people who post on here either, if it was I apologise unreservedly. If we Brits can accommodate Americanisms and double quotes, why can't Americans do the opposite? Surely if someone has the wit to connect to this site they are intelligent enough to cope with the vagaries of English spelling, grammar and punctuation? If they aren't then I put the header at the top of my story to let them know what they would be facing.

Whilst the servers may well be based in the US (they could just as well be in Hong Kong) and the site is administered by American citizens, this site is definitely not American. All of human life is here, certainly from English speaking countries and from a lot of countries who aren't, it is, like it or not, a global community. The same would be true if it were based in England and administered by English citizens, the main 'population' of the site would probably still be Americans, as you say, sheer force of numbers.

I write because I love to write, I may never get any little red Hs, I might get battered by 1-bombers who hate my Englishness, at the end of the day the question is, do I give a shit?

 

[Tx Tall Tales]

Write long enough and you'll get them all. Every reason in the world why your story sucks. 99.9% may love it, but that last bastard is the vocal one.

They'll write comments about your grammar. Your knowledge of history. Your inability to spell. Your mother.

And they always have suggestions. Especially "Is xxx going to get pregnant?" and "you should get her mother involved".

Now I just laugh, and wallow in the love. I suggest you do the same.

I do get occasionally pissed off when I see someone light up a writer who obviously has English as a second language. You'll see some odd sentence construction and a reader will bitch that the story's unreadable. I love these stories; so often they are windows into vastly different cultures and the little weirdnesses that I see in the story I just soak in.

Try writing in anything other than your native language before tossing those stones about, you damn heathens!

(Obviously not directed toward any of the loving and open-minded forum members here!)

 

[Elianna]

Sometimes feedback is a place for venting, hmmm...just like this. Obviously you've found a few readers with some "issues." Not surprising in a place like this. You're not alone.

I've also had people tell me that my characters are NOT doing what they are supposed to, because everyone should act like perfect ladies and gentlemen and have hot sex with no plot. Sheesh! That would be like the AH without all the "spicy" people... B-O-R-I-N-G

Negative feedback is just par for the course. You get it - even if you're nice on the bulletin board (most of the time) and write relatively harmless stories.

As for the ' vs. " I don't care. All reads the same to me.

I suppose people might only be coming to the site to find a story to whack off to, so they might get more confused than with the lack of blood flow to the brain. Therefore, you may want to notify those who can't both read and...er, use their hands at the same time effectively, that they may want to hold off if they're unfamiliar with British writing conventions.

Sorry a few people irked you, but honestly, those were not the meanest comments I've ever read.

Dare you to post on Loving Wives.

 

[polynices]

Sometimes feedback is a place for venting, hmmm...just like this. Obviously you've found a few readers with some "issues." Not surprising in a place like this. You're not alone. ...

I suppose people might only be coming to the site to find a story to whack off to, so they might get more confused than with the lack of blood flow to the brain. ...

Sorry a few people irked you, but honestly, those were not the meanest comments I've ever read.

Dare you to post on Loving Wives.

1. Yes, this is something I've ignored throughout. Thanks for pointing it out.

The stories are about sex, after all, and the main intention - on my part anyway - is to arouse people sexually. So it isn't surprising that some people hit moments of intense frustration when they're searching desperately for the exact story that will finally get them off, and then the story 'misses' for them. Sex is, obviously, linked to aggression for most of us in some way - well, for men at least, I think. (I'm much less sure about women, though I believe there is a connection.) Testosterone* isn't very fair-minded, so I suppose it isn't surprising that a minority release their frustration/rage by attacking the authors who've disappointed them.

(I think bronzeage touched on this point earlier - that for some people only the most specific fetish objects will do the trick. - He mentioned ducks on the ends of diaper pins, I think.)

I still don't think all that excuses malicious comments in any way, but it probably explains a lot of them.

2. I also accept that the comments I've had aren't as mean as they might have been. I said at the beginning of this discussion that I've actually been pretty lucky with the comments I've received overall - for which grace, much thanks. I do read the Feedback Portal from time to time, though, and I'm often horrified - and angered - by the unfair attacks on authors I see there. (And, yes, 'Loving Wives' seems to provoke most of it, of course. And, no, I don't think I'll be posting anything there. I'm going to wimp out on that one!)

[*I've just skimmed the start of the Testosterone entry on Wikipedia, by the way, and they say this:

'The stereotype of testosterone as the driver of lust and aggression in men is dismissed by researchers in the field as an over-simplification'.

So my reference to testosterone may well be inexact. Nevertheless, sexual frustration can often express itself as aggression, in my view. In fact, I think that's obvious.]

- polynices

 

[Epmd607]

1. Yes, this is something I've ignored throughout. Thanks for pointing it out.

The stories are about sex, after all, and the main intention - on my part anyway - is to arouse people sexually. So it isn't surprising that some people hit moments of intense frustration when they're searching desperately for the exact story that will finally get them off, and then the story 'misses' for them. Sex is, obviously, linked to aggression for most of us in some way - well, for men at least, I think. (I'm much less sure about women, though I believe there is a connection.) Testosterone* isn't very fair-minded, so I suppose it isn't surprising that a minority release their frustration/rage by attacking the authors who've disappointed them.

(I think bronzeage touched on this point earlier - that for some people only the most specific fetish objects will do the trick. - He mentioned ducks on the ends of diaper pins, I think.)

I still don't think all that excuses malicious comments in any way, but it probably explains a lot of them.

2. I also accept that the comments I've had aren't as mean as they might have been. I said at the beginning of this discussion that I've actually been pretty lucky with the comments I've received overall - for which grace, much thanks. I do read the Feedback Portal from time to time, though, and I'm often horrified - and angered - by the unfair attacks on authors I see there. (And, yes, 'Loving Wives' seems to provoke most of it, of course. And, no, I don't think I'll be posting anything there. I'm going to wimp out on that one!)

[*I've just skimmed the start of the Testosterone entry on Wikipedia, by the way, and they say this:

'The stereotype of testosterone as the driver of lust and aggression in men is dismissed by researchers in the field as an over-simplification'.

So my reference to testosterone may well be inexact. Nevertheless, sexual frustration can often express itself as aggression, in my view. In fact, I think that's obvious.]

- polynices

You know, now you're probably going to get a lot more criticism when you post a story because people will remember you were "ranting" about the feedback. Maybe more people will read your stories, but you'll def. get more negative feedback if people see this thread.

Wikipedia has stats on who visits this site from what country. There's an amazing amount of non-English countries represented as percentage of visitors. I'm sure the statistics are pretty accurate, they probably come from the site owners.

Edit: "Literotica, though a United States based web site, only receives 47% of its web traffic from the United States. According to alexa.com, other countries with the greatest impact on web traffic are: India: 10%, Germany: 6.8%, the United Kingdom: 5.8%, and Canada: 3.2%."

UK is number four? I guess the Indians would have preference over style before the British.

 

[polynices]

You know, now you're probably going to get a lot more criticism when you post a story because people will remember you were "ranting" about the feedback. Maybe more people will read your stories, but you'll def. get more negative feedback if people see this thread.

Morning, Epmd607,

1. You may well be right, though I haven't seen any effect so far. But, in a way, I think that danger justifies this public discussion. I believe - though I can't prove it, of course - that some malicious commenters intend to intimidate the authors they've got their knives into. I think that's all the more reason for pointing out what's going on when it happens.

There's a further ramification here. If I really do get a whole torrent of malice poured over me, I'll probably just stop posting stories here - or, perhaps, post under another alias. I'd guess other authors have adopted one or other of those solutions. Malicious and intimidating feedback is stupid because it's ultimately counter-productive. it stops some people from posting the stories that readers come here to read. I'd guess that some good authors have given up on Literotica for exactly that reason.

2. The statistics you've posted are interesting - and surprising, for me at least.

Cheers,

- polynices

 

[polynices]

Wikipedia has stats on who visits this site from what country. There's an amazing amount of non-English countries represented as percentage of visitors. I'm sure the statistics are pretty accurate, they probably come from the site owners.

Edit: "Literotica, though a United States based web site, only receives 47% of its web traffic from the United States. According to alexa.com, other countries with the greatest impact on web traffic are: India: 10%, Germany: 6.8%, the United Kingdom: 5.8%, and Canada: 3.2%."

Would those figures include the non-English language parts of Literotica, perhaps? - E.g. German Literotica, Roumanian Literotica, and so on?

I'd guess the Indian traffic* into Literotica would mainly be for English language stories, though. And there are certainly a lot more Indians in the world than there are British people.

*NOTE (a couple of hours later): I've just done a quick search and I find that there's a Hindi section of Literotica. Some of the stories seem to be in English, but a lot are in Hindi or Tamil or other Indian languages. So that may account for the relatively high proportion of traffic from India.

- polynices

 

[lance gt]

The interesting thing to point out here, is if you go back to the home page of Lit. and see the language choices, represented in national flags, they use the Union Jack for english. Would that not mean all stories written in english, should be of that language use. If there was an American flag, it would denote that stories were written in that format. I'm sure the other nationalities aren't bitching about trivial differences in the way their stories are printed. As a Canadian, I write in both formats of spelling and drop 'u' from words like colour, neighbour or favourite, or spellings like center or centre. To me, it depends if the story is written as if it were set in America or elsewhere. I write to please a reader for the content and not for purism of spelling and punctuation.

 

[Epmd607]

The interesting thing to point out here, is if you go back to the home page of Lit. and see the language choices, represented in national flags, they use the Union Jack for english. Would that not mean all stories written in english, should be of that language use. If there was an American flag, it would denote that stories were written in that format. I'm sure the other nationalities aren't bitching about trivial differences in the way their stories are printed. As a Canadian, I write in both formats of spelling and drop 'u' from words like colour, neighbour or favourite, or spellings like center or centre. To me, it depends if the story is written as if it were set in America or elsewhere. I write to please a reader for the content and not for purism of spelling and punctuation.

I can't believe that enough people lose their sh*t over British/American spellings or punctuation that something would have to be done. Someone complaining about stuff like that at the end of your story is a pure idiot. I have to look up words like 'Stroppy' when I read stories, I don't send the author a message telling them they're an elite british prick.

 

[Teloz]

I can't believe that enough people lose their sh*t over British/American spellings or punctuation that something would have to be done. Someone complaining about stuff like that at the end of your story is a pure idiot. I have to look up words like 'Stroppy' when I read stories, I don't send the author a message telling them they're an elite British prick.

Exactly! We all write in our system of choice. It doesn't bother me if dialogue is denoted in single quotes, double quotes, <...> or elephant's footprints, if I am interested in the story, I'll read it and go with the flow. If others click away from my story because it's punctuated or spelled a little differently, then as far as I'm concerned that's their loss, why read it then bitch about it?

I've been seriously thinking of posting a story to Loving Wives just for the hell of it!

 

[Alex De Kok]

One point I don't think I've seen made on this thread (I skimmed over a lot of them, to be honest). Pick a couple of novels off a shelf, one published in the US, by a US publisher, and one published in the UK, by a UK publisher. I'll lay odds that the US novel will have " on the dialog(u)e, and the UK novel will have '. Familiarity will probably make the unconscious decision for the writers here. That said, I use " all of the time, my personal preference, and have to make a conscious change to ' for the UK.

I did have a comment on my 2009 Nude Day entry commenting that the story contained several spelling errors that distracted the reader, and that s/he thought it showed sloppiness in not using a spell checker. I merely added a comment myself to the effect that I am English and used English English spellings. I didn't add that I had used a spell checker, just not an American one!

Alex

 

[lance gt]

Exactly! We all write in our system of choice. It doesn't bother me if dialogue is denoted in single quotes, double quotes, <...> or elephant's footprints, if I am interested in the story, I'll read it and go with the flow. If others click away from my story because it's punctuated or spelled a little differently, then as far as I'm concerned that's their loss, why read it then bitch about it?

I've been seriously thinking of posting a story to Loving Wives just for the hell of it!

That's what I do Teloz. I write mediocre crap for them and enjoy watching the feedback come in. It doesn't matter how well you write the story as far as plot is concerned, they just want to think of themselves as writers too when they post comments. I love my trolls and tell them so. My stories get over 100 comments on them and I have a daily laugh reading them. It's great fodder for threads in here discussing them.

 

[sr71plt]

I can't believe that enough people lose their sh*t over British/American spellings or punctuation that something would have to be done. Someone complaining about stuff like that at the end of your story is a pure idiot. I have to look up words like 'Stroppy' when I read stories, I don't send the author a message telling them they're an elite british prick.

Good luck in telling readers what they can and can't think and post about the stories they read here.

 

[Tarakin]

Would those figures include the non-English language parts of Literotica, perhaps? - E.g. German Literotica, Roumanian Literotica, and so on?

I'd guess the Indian traffic* into Literotica would mainly be for English language stories, though. And there are certainly a lot more Indians in the world than there are British people.

*NOTE (a couple of hours later): I've just done a quick search and I find that there's a Hindi section of Literotica. Some of the stories seem to be in English, but a lot are in Hindi or Tamil or other Indian languages. So that may account for the relatively high proportion of traffic from India.

- polynices

I can assure you that the German part of Lit is rarely visited, so I guess most Germans are here for the English stories.

 

[polynices]

I can assure you that the German part of Lit is rarely visited, so I guess most Germans are here for the English stories.

That's interesting.

Thanks for the earlier information, by the way, about punctuating speech and thought in German. It certainly would be useful if English had a specific way to indicate thoughts, to distinguish them from spoken words.

Cheers,

- polynices

 

[Teloz]

That's interesting.

Thanks for the earlier information, by the way, about punctuating speech and thought in German. It certainly would be useful if English had a specific way to indicate thoughts, to distinguish them from spoken words.

Cheers,

- polynices

I treat thoughts like any other dialogue, but italicise them. I don't know if that helps.

 

[Kitty_Schrödinger]

In Germany we use the " for speech and the ' for thoughts. We also start speeches with a lowered " btw, so a sentence in German looks like this:

„Hello, do we know each other?" he said, adding in thought: ,I wouldn't mind getting to know you much better'.

If you send this to Lit it gets rejected btw, I always have to change the „ to " before I do that.

It's the same in Poland.

 

[Epmd607]

I can assure you that the German part of Lit is rarely visited, so I guess most Germans are here for the English stories.

I don't know about the other versions of lit, but I've read stories here in English by Indians. I think if I was literate in some modern language I'd probably read their porno stories too.

 

[Teloz]

I don't know about the other versions of lit, but I've read stories here in English by Indians. I think if I was literate in some modern language I'd probably read their porno stories too.

Me too!