a question

[KillerMuffin]

Yes they are CD. They are currently redesigning the submarine to have separate berthing areas for men and women. Once that's accomplished, well, onto the subs women go. So says his honorable moronic Super Admiral Jay Johnson.

Tell him to stay out of the Brit military. According to the StudMuffin, whose rare pleasure it was to serve with some Brits in the Gulf, "Them are some crazy motherfuckers!"

I won't relate the story that accompanies this. It's just plain vile.

 

[Closet Desire]

I should have said...

...my son's American. Believe it or not he chose to live here when his mom and I divorced (she and I get on well). The judo training is better here! If he joins the Brits he has to give up US citizenship. I know he likes English girls but I don't think he's ready to give up his passport!

In fact, he was born in Hampton Virginia at the Air Force base there. How much more American can you get! hee hee

God bless Americia...(ad naseum!) Actually I don't know the rest of the words.

 

[Closet Desire]

Oh...

...by the way. Which Admiral was it who loosened up uniform regs and allowed men to grow beards? I know I managed to stay one step ahead of having to shave my beard with promotions when he was replaced. Zumwalt wasn't it? I don't know if the women are still allowed to wear beards!

 

[KillerMuffin]

Yuppers, Zumwalt did it, or was it the guy who shot himself? Or was he the MCPON? I forget. Anyway the Admirable Jay Johnson hopped his lil ass into the Naval quartermaster's chair and made shaving a mando thing again. Mustaches can be okay if they don't look stupid.

The estimate is that women will be on subs by the next submaking go-round. We have the Seawolf class now, 2 of em and when we get around to making more, there should be some females aboard. The joke 150 sailors go down and 75 couples come up just won't be as funny anymore.

The only bastion left will be SEALs.

 

[Closet Desire]

Ah...

...that's what I thought. Well, just as well. If I had shaved my beard they would have kicked me out for being too ugly. I shaved it once in March 1980 for the launching of the Vinson. My boss, Rickover, was supposed to show up and I wanted to look good for him (he hated beards). The mean little SOB never showed up. Took three months for it to grow back. I mean damn...that Admiral had some nerve. (Cool guy though...needed a wheelbarrow to carry his balls).

 

[brazenblaze]

1. IMHO remove gender norming and work hard at making it natural for women to exist alongside men in any given corps and you can put them anywhere. I have reservations about the sexual issues (not gender) when the two are thrown together and teh psychological effects of one or other gender putting out/not putting out when the other wants/doesn't want it. But I believe these can be overcome if the unit is created properly.

Seems that most responses are in general agreement, but hung up on some specifics. Perhaps if the common ground could be agreed, some forward movement could be made on the real issues.

Thank you. Just what I've been trying to say, but you have said it much better than I have.

The "skeletons" are very nice in appearance. I was at Fort Meade two years ago when they started testing them, and the Army Times has published many articles on them. The big problem they are finding with them is the weight, same as with the replacement for the M16a1 rifle. The suits weigh between 35-50lbs depending upon the attachments and have been found to cause a dehydration risk. The last I heard the idea was shelved until they could reduce the weight and install a cooling system that wouldn't contribute to the weight problem.

Everyone here seems to agree on women in combat, just not on the details of how and why, let me bring up another Military issue that has been pissing me off lately.

The changing over to the black beret for all soldiers in the Army.
Personally, I think it is one f***ed up idea. That beret belongs to the Rangers and carries a tradition. The thought of seeing a fat male or female wearing it makes me cringe.

 

[Closet Desire]

I'm speechless...

I know...that's a rare thing for me!

I was permanently marred when the started changing all of Zumwalt's changes and made me wear a "dixie cup" hat. It would have been fine when I was four, but I felt really silly at 26 wearing one!

Sorry, I was a squid so I'm not qualified to comment on beret's. It's not like that Prince song about a red beret is it...somehow I think she looked hot...rather than not.

Oh...almost forgot...that's cool about the suits. I'd love to see one. This article mentioned something about motors that work like muscles rather than rotating. I must be getting old...can't even visualize stuff like this. No wonder there are men my age reading comics.

[Edited by Closet Desire on 01-15-2001 at 11:10 AM]

 

[Guest]

 

[Ian1]

[BThe changing over to the black beret for all soldiers in the Army.
Personally, I think it is one f***ed up idea. That beret belongs to the Rangers and carries a tradition. The thought of seeing a fat male or female wearing it makes me cringe. [/B]

I don't even want to start on that stupid ass idea. Whatever fucked up POAG (Personel Other than A Grunt)ass officer thought that one up should be out of a job. It is so very disrespectful, not only to the Rangers, but also to those other elite units with berets (airborne truck drivers and fuel handlers excluded). And I can speak for all Infantryen when I say that it is the most ridiculas thing I have ever heard and should NOT happen.

However, there is one thing that I am kicking myself for forgetting to mention. Sometimes an Infantry unit will stay in the woods for a rather extended period of time. Sometimes more than a month. The hygine issue becomes a problem when you start thinking about putting a woman in such a position. It could be a nasty situation indeed.

 

[Matthew D]

Ian

Damn Man,
I had forgotten about that...that is a damn good point. I do remember the "funky" smell that came off some of the guys in my section after a 30+ field problem and we ended up with only one "shower" not that you could really call it that. Well, thanks for reminding me about that! I think that Blaze was agreeing with us on the whole beret thing...

 

[Closet Desire]

women used to live...

...in caves too! Seriously, I didn't know this until I started studying the lives of women in Victorian England, but the idea of hygiene being more of an issue for women didn't start until then, perhaps as a way of further isolating women from a man's world (that's just what my books say...it isn't my specialty). Before that, women were in the thick of things, tended the farms, lived in squalor, and usually outlived the men. Maybe it requires a mental readjustment rather than a logistics one. Go figure.

I think one of the morale building things for special groups in the military is about something that sets them apart from the others. I think it's important. For us nucs we were said to live in Disneyland and I guess that honour enough, but those people who have really attained the distinction of their role really deserve that special distinction.

 

[Ian1]

Both of you seem to be missing the point. I am talking about the menstral cycle, and how that could be a large problem in the employment of a unit that has been in the woods for a bit.

 

[Closet Desire]

No insulted intended...

I knew what you were talking about, but women have been menstruating for...well...forever. Bears shit in the woods...so do men. Women fart (yes...a little known fact!). The human body was designed to survive.

Seriously, this was one thing I was referring to about Victorian England. Menstrual blood was a big mystery at the time and perceived as a "weakness" in women. Clerics and doctors used it as a way of justifying certain things in the treatment of women.

If you're thinking about having to dispose of tampons and sanitary napkins there is another option that many women are now using which is a cervical cap similar to a diaphram. It's fitted over the opening to the cervix and can hold up to 24 hours of flow after which it's emptied (2-3 ounces max), cleaned in water, and reinserted. Not really a very big deal. Even PMS can be dealt with, but I won't get into that since you didn't raise it.

How do I know all this? (blush) My wife and I own a psychology practice for women so I'm afraid I've learned more than I ever wanted to know. And, my wife uses one of these clever little gadgets.

I think part of this is getting over some of the things that people never talk about and talking about them openly. It's no big deal...it's just the business of living.

 

[Closet Desire]

Tossed this around...

...with CD-able who also suggested that women engaged in active combat or other stressful field activies may stop menstruating altogether. It's a natural response to stress and a way for a woman in ages past (way past) to not get pregnant during times when it is a liability. It would be interesting to know if any women on here serving in high stress military roles have experienced this?

 

[KillerMuffin]

TMI, I know, but in Bootcamp I experienced a little 4 hour long "period" two weeks early then didn't have a period for another 8 months, and that was just the little Navy boyscout boot.

Honeys, women go to the field. They went to the gulf. They've been out there during the ol' period before. There are ways to deal with that, and they do deal with that. Toss all the icky stuff up that you want, but the fact remains that my opinion is that if the woman can meet the physical requirements, then the woman should be allowed to do the job. At least they don't get erections, buy whores, and pick up syphyllis.

As for the black beret? What is wrong with the BDU cap as it is??? Zoomies wear it? Big whoop. The black beret has stood for a Ranger for a long time. Like BB, it would make me sick to see some fat ass poag wearing it. They just flat didn't earn it, and the Ranger Selection Course is a bitch.

Did you know that most guys roll those stupid dixie cups to look like condoms? Why do they do that? I think Chiefs and O's should have to wear 'em too.

 

[HSWriter]

You see, if I were fighting in a war (which I probably wouldn't because it's just not my thing), and there was a women on the other side who was in the midst of her period, I would sure as hell run the other way. She would be more dangerous than any man there...

 

[Closet Desire]

We rolled them...

...to keep them straight. Well...some guys might have been fantasizing they were a condom! It preserved the lines of them so that when you unrolled them they looked right. Thank heavens when we were at sea...which was most of the time...we didn't wear hats.

As for women...there you have it from an expert! Thanks KillerMuffin! How's it go "You've come a long way baby?" Yeay...women have been there, done that, and survived.

 

[brazenblaze]

Good point CD, I didn't have a period at all in basic and rarely when we were in Saudi. Funny, that is one thing I've never thought about in regards to combat and deployments. Guess most of us women just take it in stride, and of course take a couple of boxes of wet-ones with us. LOL

KM...love that POAG comment, haven't heard that one used in awhile. (the kinder gentler Army...YUCK)

 

[KillerMuffin]

This thread makes me think, we have a segment of our public serving population that's pretty much stuck in Urban Combat mode 24/7. There are women on the force, and they partner up with men. How do male police officers handle integrating with their female partners? How do they handle it when they are in the middle of dangerous situations where lives depend on the partners preformance? Do they even notice gender at these times?

 

[Cheyenne]

If you're thinking about having to dispose of tampons and sanitary napkins there is another option that many women are now using which is a cervical cap similar to a diaphram. It's fitted over the opening to the cervix and can hold up to 24 hours of flow after which it's emptied (2-3 ounces max), cleaned in water, and reinserted. Not really a very big deal.

http://www.keeper.com/

I love it. It isn't exactly a "cervical cap" but that's the correct concept. And you don't need to be in combat to use something this practical!

 

[Closet Desire]

Yeah...that's the name

...I couldn't remember what it was called. I read the instructions to it one day while I was...errrr...ummm...on the loo. What can I say...it's the second library and I was desparate.

CD-able saw an article about it in a magazine, ordered it, and has been pleased as punch with it.

I'm really fascinated about women's periods stopping during intense training or combat duty. I've understood this is similar to women who stop menstruating because of intense training for sports although I think that one is due not only to the stress but to body fat dropping below a certain level. The body senses that it isn't a "good time" and shuts down reproduction. I've never heard of adverse effects to it, but it's gotta push hormones around and have some effect. Clever, but I suppose it shouldn't be too surprising. It's neat to hear from women what their experience has been.

Thanks all for speaking up...