A question regarding punishment

[Lizzie_Borden]

And what might you think you can achieve through punishment that you cannot achieve through communication (other than the dom's sadistic pleasure)?

And this point has been discussed previously.

Some people need punishment as an end point to whatever has happened. Some submissives or slaves need it to feel the physical pain to accompany the emotional pain they're feeling, so that they can feel absolved, and stop beating themselves up about it. Some dominants need it so that they can work out their frustration and anger. It's not sadistic, and they don't get any pleasure from it.

And punishment never takes the place of communication, as it seems you keep implying. It's a separate thing.

 

[welkin]

That's true, she doesn't have to. She can always leave him.

If no contact wasn't a hard limit beforehand, he has the right to use it as a punishment. If after use, kim decides that's a hard limit and says so, and her dom uses it as punishment again, then she'd have cause to do something about it.

But for now, I honestly don't see what the fuss is.

If cutting is a hard limit for me and I happened not to have made it clear earlier, I'd say so and try to get away as the dom approaches me with a knife. I'm not going to wait to be cut and then go, hmm, that wasn't right, let's not do that again.

And this point has been discussed previously.

Some people need punishment as an end point to whatever has happened. Some submissives or slaves need it to feel the physical pain to accompany the emotional pain they're feeling, so that they can feel absolved, and stop beating themselves up about it. Some dominants need it so that they can work out their frustration and anger. It's not sadistic, and they don't get any pleasure from it.

And punishment never takes the place of communication, as it seems you keep implying. It's a separate thing.

precisely. Since Kim didn't request or enjoy this punishment, in this case I think the bolded text applies. Punishment won't improve kim's understanding -- her error was already explained and she did feel contrite, it only helps the dom to let out his anger and frustration. If a dom can punish a sub just because he's angry with no other productive effect, that to me is one slippery slope to abuse.

Eta: yes punishment isn't meant to be enjoyed, by enjoy above I mean at least somehow find peace and accept it, not anxiety.

 

[ecstaticsub]

If cutting is a hard limit for me and I happened not to have made it clear earlier, I'd say so and try to get away as the dom approaches me with a knife. I'm not going to wait to be cut and then go, hmm, that wasn't right, let's not do that again.


precisely. Since Kim didn't request or enjoy this punishment, in this case I think the bolded text applies. Punishment won't improve kim's understanding -- her error was already explained and she did feel contrite, it only helps the dom to let out his anger and frustration. If a dom can punish a sub just because he's angry with no other productive effect, that to me is one slippery slope to abuse.

Eta: yes punishment isn't meant to be enjoyed, by enjoy above I mean at least somehow find peace and accept it, not anxiety.

I do believe from kim's last post that she did accept it and learned from it. A little anxiety is still not a big deal.

I have punished my children sometimes by putting them into time out in their rooms. I have separated them from me not to punish them with my silence or to not allow them to communicate with me but because I am angry, they are angry and no good, productive communication can happen when both people, or even one is angry.

This will not lead to abuse. This will prevent it.

I look at forced no communication between a dom and sub the same way. A period of silence is a way for both to calm down and see things clearly.

If her dom took a belt and beat her while angry until she lay bleeding and broken on the floor then that would be abouse (in most relationships) but a cooling off period is very very far from abuse.

There was a comment you made about brats earlier in this discussion. If kim was a brat then her dominant would know that and the situation would have been handled differently I am sure.

I get why some subs are brats and why some doms might prefer brats, and I don't look down on them. But I don't think they are the majority. I also think they go by almost totally different rules submissives who value obedience go by.

 

[kimuk]

Good Heavens my dilema did cause some debate didnt it!

 

[Stella_Omega]

Good Heavens my dilema did cause some debate didnt it!

Well, sure!

I plan to keep on reading the thread, because it's amazingly illuminating, especially for someone like me who just doesn't do things this way.

 

[kimuk]

So what did i learn.

i learnt lots of things that have already been said.

I'm no BDSM purist. I have no ideals. For me its like opeing an epic novel. I'm just struggeling through the first chapters. i dont know if I'll ever get to the conclusion.

Our relationship has always been consensual. He ask me to do things or about things and I react immediatly , sometimes saying no. But it's like he plants a seed, the germinates, it starts to grow, it flourishes. i often then go back and then say "you know that thing we talked about , I've changed me mind". And we talk some more and come to a consensual medium. Most of the time I feel he's always with me , like he's holding my hand. So when he withdrew himeself it felt like he'd let go of me. Left me floundering and it was the first thing he had done which i had not consented to.

So, as said here , I have learnt that real punishment has to be just that , real. That I didnt have to like it, but it serves its purpose. That in a LDR there are few options for "real punishment " and it had to be something that he had total control over. And efffective.

i've learnt that he cares enough about me to want to protect me. And his instruction was for my protection as well as his. Which I ignored. I did confess to my actions and I supose I anticiapted some play punishment which i could just do and get it over with. I didnt quite turn out like that.

I learnt I did try to "get my own back" by starting this thread. Some have said it was manipulation. For me I wanted him to witness my pain. SO maybe yes manipulation. He has read it . He laughed when he was called a sadist. ( never in a million years) and was appaled when someone said "dump him". But he didnt see it as manipulation , he said he didnt enjoy seeing me in pain.

He has also said let the thread die now. So I wont post here again . But will let you all get on with the discussion . i will however keep reading what everyone posts.

But for us the subject is closed , behind us and we will move forwards for it.

 

[ecstaticsub]

kimuk -- thanks for coming back to update us. I wish you all the best in your journey forward.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

If cutting is a hard limit for me and I happened not to have made it clear earlier, I'd say so and try to get away as the dom approaches me with a knife. I'm not going to wait to be cut and then go, hmm, that wasn't right, let's not do that again.


precisely. Since Kim didn't request or enjoy this punishment, in this case I think the bolded text applies. Punishment won't improve kim's understanding -- her error was already explained and she did feel contrite, it only helps the dom to let out his anger and frustration. If a dom can punish a sub just because he's angry with no other productive effect, that to me is one slippery slope to abuse.

Eta: yes punishment isn't meant to be enjoyed, by enjoy above I mean at least somehow find peace and accept it, not anxiety.

Well, I could just be different in that I think letting those emotions out, even via punishment, is healthy. I don't see punishment to express anger as abuse, I think abuse comes when those feelings are disregarded and bottled up, and they leach out afterwards, sometimes in passive agressive ways, sometimes just violently. It's better to deal with it from both sides and then get past it.

And punishment doesn't *have* to always be about the submissive learning either. They don't have to request it, or enjojy it. The dominant has equal and valid feelings that need to be addressed. I think a lot of people forget that. Why should they *have* to say 'oh, you're sorry? That's cool. Let's not worry and move on,' just because the other party is done with it?

Yes, I know that a dominant has a duty of care to the submissive. But they also have it to themselves.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

So what did i learn.

i learnt lots of things that have already been said.

I'm no BDSM purist. I have no ideals. For me its like opeing an epic novel. I'm just struggeling through the first chapters. i dont know if I'll ever get to the conclusion.

Our relationship has always been consensual. He ask me to do things or about things and I react immediatly , sometimes saying no. But it's like he plants a seed, the germinates, it starts to grow, it flourishes. i often then go back and then say "you know that thing we talked about , I've changed me mind". And we talk some more and come to a consensual medium. Most of the time I feel he's always with me , like he's holding my hand. So when he withdrew himeself it felt like he'd let go of me. Left me floundering and it was the first thing he had done which i had not consented to.

So, as said here , I have learnt that real punishment has to be just that , real. That I didnt have to like it, but it serves its purpose. That in a LDR there are few options for "real punishment " and it had to be something that he had total control over. And efffective.

i've learnt that he cares enough about me to want to protect me. And his instruction was for my protection as well as his. Which I ignored. I did confess to my actions and I supose I anticiapted some play punishment which i could just do and get it over with. I didnt quite turn out like that.

I learnt I did try to "get my own back" by starting this thread. Some have said it was manipulation. For me I wanted him to witness my pain. SO maybe yes manipulation. He has read it . He laughed when he was called a sadist. ( never in a million years) and was appaled when someone said "dump him". But he didnt see it as manipulation , he said he didnt enjoy seeing me in pain.

He has also said let the thread die now. So I wont post here again . But will let you all get on with the discussion . i will however keep reading what everyone posts.

But for us the subject is closed , behind us and we will move forwards for it.

It honestly sounds like what you did could have put you both in jeopardy, and thus could have affected your relationship, and that his punishing you was to drive that point home.

Because you probably scared him. He wants this relationship to continue. He doesn't want to lose you.

 

[the captians wench]

kimuk, I want to make sure you understand that I didn't mean that I thought you should drop him, I only ment that if that was done to me I would leave because that kind of punishment does not work for me. I never ment to infer that you should leave him. I'm not sure if you ment me, but I wanted to clarify.

I have a lot of abandonment issues. Jounar and I do go periods with out speaking to each other because of life obligations, but he has never told me that because I did xyz he wasn't going to speak to me for x days. He knows that I would not be able to get over that, so it's not done. Hell I get all kinds of weepy when he has given me a 10 minute time out and he watched the whole time.

I have dropped relationships because they used non contact as a form of punishment. I did it because that was best for me. And I more often than not waited for the second time they had done it. The first time I would state again (because like I said I'm upfront right away that I'm not okay with this) that non contact as a form of punishment is a hard limit for me, and if it is not respected, then that person is not being respectful of me, and theirfore not worthy of me.

That's my hard limit, my deal breaker. I can understand a lot, but using absence to punish me, I just can't. Every one has their own deal breaker.

I also want to say that what ever reason you had for starting the thread, I think it's a good topic for discussion, and I hope it doesn't fade away quickly. Having been in a LDR for nearing 6 years, I've held my bias against people that used non com as a punishment. It's always good to have a look at the other side of things.

 

[butterfly_flip]

But for us the subject is closed , behind us and we will move forwards for it.

To my mind, that is the most significant aspect of the discussion. You've both moved on, found a way back to each other, and it has no doubt strengthened your bond

 

[kimuk]

To my mind, that is the most significant aspect of the discussion. You've both moved on, found a way back to each other, and it has no doubt strengthened your bond

To be honest it made me wary for a long time. I was careful what I said so I didnt upset him. Sometimes even when I cross the line now I worry that I could evoke the same thing again. I dont want a relationship based on fear of the consequences. If I do somethign wrong tell me , dont remove yourself from me for as long as you feel like. I hope I have made him understand how hard it was for me and how it made me feel.

Something happened a few weeks ago and I thouhgt, Ok this is it I've crossed the line. I fully expected the same treatment. So I opted out first. I reduced contact , I told him I was considering hanging up my collar for good. For me it was a case of jump before your pushed. Opt out before the same thing happens again.

Thankfully I have a patient Dom who understands his scatty sub and just takes a step back lets me breath and then gently eases me back to my "normal" self.

I dont believe this type of punishment does any good at all and I think if I was faced with it again there would be no coming back.

Its a form of rejection and I dont handel that well, I need to feel wanted and needed. To me this doesent say I'm punishing you, it says I really dont care enough about you to talk this through or work it out.

 

[the captians wench]

I don't think your reaction was "scatty" at all kim.

I did a simular thing with Jounar at one point. We kept having the same fight over and over, our only fight at the time, and finally I said "you know what, I can't keep doing this. Maybe it's time to call it a day"

We were "apart" for a month or so. We still talked, infact I think he worked a bit harder to try to catch me every day, and eventually we worked through it (mostly because he realized he was being stupid).

There's only been one other time when I said "I think I need to pull out of this" with anyone, and it was also to protect myself. Some times it's what we need to do. Some times it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

Now I'm not saying use it as you're own form of punishment, but some times it is nessisary to remind a person what you will and will not tollerate.

 

[kimuk]

I think I learn more as time goes by what I can and canot tolerate.

Sometimes its just emotional self preservation

 

[yourhardlimits]

I'm game for all kinds of creative punishments when it comes to bdsm and power relationships.

Except for shunning.

I just can't see any positive side to it. It's not something I would ever employ with a sub. It's too detrimental to bonding and to the trust relationship being built.

My feeling is that abandonment (to name it bluntly) should be the one thing a Dom/Domme doesn't do while punishing a sub.

 

[AllTorment]

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