A question of style (US)

[NotWise]

Actually, it's different. Quotation marks go INSIDE the semicolon.

Example:

That's her way of saying, "Thank you."

BUT

That's her way of saying, "Thank you"; she has an entirely different way of saying, "Piss off."

Does that make sense to you? If I think of the semicolon as a stand-in for a conjunction then it makes sense because the conjunction would go outside the quotes, but that case would require a comma inside the quotes, which is omitted when the semicolon is substituted.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Does that make sense to you? If I think of the semicolon as a stand-in for a conjunction then it makes sense because the conjunction would go outside the quotes, but that case would require a comma inside the quotes, which is omitted when the semicolon is substituted.

Since they're independent clauses, i think the more closely related alternate punctuation option would be:

That's her way of saying, "Thank you." She has an entirely different way of saying, "Piss off."

 

[NotWise]

Since they're independent clauses, i think the more closely related alternate punctuation option would be:

That's her way of saying, "Thank you." She has an entirely different way of saying, "Piss off."

That works, but the difference is a matter of preference. Sometimes I might want the short sentences. Other times I want the semicolon to smooth the flow.

I'd remove the commas before "Thank you." and "Piss off." They belong there if she's being quoted, but here the quotation marks enclose literals.

 

[SimonDoom]

Does that make sense to you? If I think of the semicolon as a stand-in for a conjunction then it makes sense because the conjunction would go outside the quotes, but that case would require a comma inside the quotes, which is omitted when the semicolon is substituted.

It doesn't matter whether it makes sense. This is the US convention. CMOS section 6.10.

Example given in the 17th edition (2017):

I was invited to recite the lyrics to "Sympathy for the Devil"; instead I read from the op-ed page of the New York Times.

In contrast to:

I was invited to recite the lyrics to "Sympathy for the Devil."

The comma version:

I was invited to recite the lyrics to "Sympathy for the Devil," and I did so with glee.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Think your way works,

Grace scowled at Zelda and said, “That’s her way of saying ‘thank you.’”

But, I'd do it this way,
Grace scowled at Zelda and said, “That’s her way of saying, thank you.”

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

That works, but the difference is a matter of preference. Sometimes I might want the short sentences. Other times I want the semicolon to smooth the flow.

I'd remove the commas before "Thank you." and "Piss off." They belong there if she's being quoted, but here the quotation marks enclose literals.

Semicolon vs period would depend on how closely associated the independent clauses are. in this case, I feel the semi colon is the better choice.

 

[SimonDoom]

That works, but the difference is a matter of preference. Sometimes I might want the short sentences. Other times I want the semicolon to smooth the flow.

I'd remove the commas before "Thank you." and "Piss off." They belong there if she's being quoted, but here the quotation marks enclose literals.

Standard American is to use the comma to set the quote off from the tag, whether the tag comes before or after the quoted text.

Example given in CMOS 6.10:

Which of Shakespeare's characters said, "All the world's a stage"?

So it's

"Hello," I said.

OR

I said, "Hello."

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Standard American is to use the comma to set the quote off from the tag, whether the tag comes before or after the quoted text.

Example given in CMOS 6.10:

Which of Shakespeare's characters said, "All the world's a stage"?

So it's

"Hello," I said.

OR

I said, "Hello."

Kind of annoying that it's
"Hello," I said

and not

I said ",Hello.", isn't it?

Or would that be

I said ",Hello.," isn't it???

 

[SimonDoom]

Kind of annoying that it's
"Hello," I said

and not

I said ",Hello.", isn't it?

Or would that be

I said ",Hello.," isn't it???

"Annoying" has nothing to do with it!

 

[SimonDoom]

Here are some examples of the use of quotes and other punctuation with dialogue that I believe are all consistent with standard American style:

I hate "The Taming of the Shrew."

I said, "I hate 'The Taming of the Shrew.'"

He said he liked "The Taming of the Shrew."

I hate "The Taming of the Shrew," but I hate "Hamlet" even more.

I hate "The Taming of the Shrew"; I hate "Hamlet" even more.

I hate everything about "The Taming of the Shrew": its silly plot, its characters, and its poetry.

Do you hate "The Taming of the Shrew?"

"Do you hate 'The Taming of the Shrew'?" he asked. (CMOS 6.70 confirms this one)

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

"Annoying" has nothing to do with it!

Ah, when sarcasm misses...

 

[NotWise]

It doesn't matter whether it makes sense. This is the US convention. CMOS section 6.10.

I understand that rules is rules, but I self-edit, and it would be great if the rules were consistent and easily remembered.

But you know what they say about attorneys: any attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client. The same thing could be said about writers. Any writer who edits for himself has a fool for a client.

 

[SimonDoom]

Ah, when sarcasm misses...

I'm not THAT clueless.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I'm not THAT clueless.

Not trying to imply that at all. I just thought this level of depth we have all gone into over the positioning of a period within nested quotes was approaching, well, I'm not sure what exactly, but it was close...

 

[lovecraft68]

On the note of KeithD, there was a pattern he had of answering these

Asked directly he'd cite the CMOS

When asked why HE didn't follow a rule the answer was always CMOS is for nonfiction and "Fiction doesn't have to follow the rules"

My answer might be seen as snarky or just not caring, but how many people reading free stories on an erotica site are going to be put off by things like this and start citing the 'rules' in their comments.

People suck the fun out of storytelling.

 

[Britva415]

I don't know where the habit of using quotes for emphasis came from

According to this, it came from just being wrong:

 

[SinclairGroupLLP]

KeithD's greatest contribution to me personally as an author was turning me on to the Chicago Manual of Style, which is the closest thing there is to a definitive reference guide to style in American fiction. I always have the 17th edition in hard copy sitting 2 feet away from me when I write at my desk. I use it often when questions like these come up.

According to CMOS (17th) section 6.11, the correct answer to this is that the period should lie inside the closing single quote mark AND closing double quote mark. The "correct" answer is the first one, not the second one, although many will think the second answer makes more sense.

CMOS gives this example as a correct way to do it on p. 368:

"Admit it," she said. "You haven't read 'The Simple Art of Murder.'"

This example seems pretty clearly analogous to the example NotWise gave in the opening post. It may not seem intuitively right, but it is standard American style.

This is my read as well, although I'm an atheist when it comes to style guides. I guess I'd consider myself a recovering Bluebook user, but that's a reference probably only Simon will get, lol.

As for the semi-colon discussion, I recall someone in my formative years telling me there is almost no situation where using a semi-colon makes sense, so I avoid them like the plague. I have no idea whether this is actually true, but I've found in my writing that I can usually get away with a new sentence in most situations where I might be tempted to use a semi-colon, and it usually works out for the best.

Who knows, the whole 'never use a semi-colon' thing could be just as fake as when my teachers told me I needed to learn math the hard way because I wouldn't always have access to a calculator when I was older, and that has turned out to be complete horseshit.

 

[MrPixel]

Actually, it's different. Quotation marks go INSIDE the semicolon.

Example:

That's her way of saying, "Thank you."

BUT

That's her way of saying, "Thank you"; she has an entirely different way of saying, "Piss off."

And MrP goes running down the hall, screaming, "No! No! No! It can't be that inconsistent! Oh gawd."

 

[SimonDoom]

Not trying to imply that at all. I just thought this level of depth we have all gone into over the positioning of a period within nested quotes was approaching, well, I'm not sure what exactly, but it was close...

Absurdity? Obsession? Pedantry? You can say it. I won't be offended.

 

[SimonDoom]

And MrP goes running down the hall, screaming, "No! No! No! It can't be that inconsistent! Oh gawd."

Mr. Doom runs after him, waving the Chicago Manual of Style over his head, crying out, "Wait, wait, there's more!"

 

[SimonDoom]

On the note of KeithD, there was a pattern he had of answering these

Asked directly he'd cite the CMOS

When asked why HE didn't follow a rule the answer was always CMOS is for nonfiction and "Fiction doesn't have to follow the rules"

My answer might be seen as snarky or just not caring, but how many people reading free stories on an erotica site are going to be put off by things like this and start citing the 'rules' in their comments.

People suck the fun out of storytelling.

No, that's incorrect. He was always clear that CMOS WAS for fiction, and he was an advocate for its use. He frequently said Strunk & White wasn't for fiction, that it was for student essays, which he was right about.

You are free to ignore conversations like these as arrant pedantry, and you are correct that it's unlikely you'll draw any critical comments for it. But for some of us, the grammar IS part of the fun.

It's worth noting that all of this incredibly fussy commentary has been brought up in a thread that specifically invited fussy commentary. We're not raining on somebody's ungrammatical parade.

Which gives me the idea, I need to write a grammar fetish story. That could be fun. Fun for some.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Absurdity? Obsession? Pedantry? You can say it. I won't be offended.

We're all running side by side, my friend.

 

[XerXesXu]

Interesting. Nothing's being said except by the one person, yet inverted commas are being treated as quotation marks. Are the inverted commas there for emphasis? Punctuate as if you'd signified emphasis some other way - or simply leave them out if you feel what is said is clear without the emphasis.

 

[lovecraft68]

No, that's incorrect. He was always clear that CMOS WAS for fiction, and he was an advocate for its use. He frequently said Strunk & White wasn't for fiction, that it was for student essays, which he was right about.

You are free to ignore conversations like these as arrant pedantry, and you are correct that it's unlikely you'll draw any critical comments for it. But for some of us, the grammar IS part of the fun.

It's worth noting that all of this incredibly fussy commentary has been brought up in a thread that specifically invited fussy commentary. We're not raining on somebody's ungrammatical parade.

Which gives me the idea, I need to write a grammar fetish story. That could be fun. Fun for some.

No, Keith, usually in defense of himself, would state a lot of rules don't apply the same way as they would in non fiction.

Look at realistic dialogue, as in slang, "I got nothin'" is not grammatically correct but its how a lot of people speak. Listen to random conversations when you're out, people butcher the language.

This forum is about discussing writing, and this fits that, but it fits one side of it, the technical side.

I can't see how sweating over every punctuation mark is 'fun' especially when some of these threads people seem frustrated over not knowing what they 'should do"

What you should do is tell your story as best as you can.

I quit school in 10th grade and have a GED, I have never taken a writing course and I'd rather read through the Overstreet Price guide than some style book or self help editing book.

You say this matters, okay, it matters to you and some others.

I say it doesn't, and I'm not the only one that feels that way.

I've been successful here-or what passes for success I should say-but have sold over 150k e-books since 2011.

I'll take my way, and the only reason I bring these things up is so people who do share my thoughts on the matter don't feel as if they have to listen to you experts.

They can if they want, but I'd rather move on to my next chapter or idea then spend an hours worrying about the countless rules for a punctuation mark.

 

[SimonDoom]

No, Keith, usually in defense of himself, would state a lot of rules don't apply the same way as they would in non fiction.

He DID say that some rules applicable to nonfiction are not applicable to fiction (I think we ALL say that), but he wasn't referring to CMOS when he said that. He and I sometimes went back and forth on the usefulness of Strunk and White, because he said it wasn't relevant to fiction and I said that, even so, it's useful for a novice writer because it's so short and easy to learn, and it quickly distills the basics much better than almost any other grammar/style guide I can think of. It's less than one-tenth the length of CMOS, for example.

I'll take my way, and the only reason I bring these things up is so people who do share my thoughts on the matter don't feel as if they have to listen to you experts.

They can if they want, but I'd rather move on to my next chapter or idea then spend an hours worrying about the countless rules for a punctuation mark.

You are perfectly free to do this, of course, but those of us who enjoy talking about points of grammar are free to do it our way, too, and this was, after all, a thread begun with a picky question about the placement of punctuation relative to quotation marks.