A question of means and ends.

[Marquis]

If Nazi scientists had made a significant discovery from experimenting on concentration camp inmates, would it be wrong to use that knowledge to help people now?

Should evidence found in an unwarranted search be used to convict criminals?

What about that new game where they recreate the JFK shooting. Is it wrong to play that?

 

[graceanne]

How about a 'depends on the circumstances'. Cause each case is different, and would need to be taken individually.

 

[dolf]

honey, sometimes it depends....

the jfk game...well that's just sick money making and belittling a real murder.

the nazi scientits...had they found something that would help people then in a way...hmm...if it was my relative that was killed i would find it comforting that so long after they were still saving lives...

illegal search...well if the police search illegally and display a lack of respect for the law in doing so then how can we trust them not to plant evidence. if searching illegally is rewarded then why would they ever bother going through the proper channels?

i think there is no black and white here...
xx

 

[Marquis]

Well, we don't live in a binary world, so obviously I'm trying to simplify the issue. This is one of those things where you're probably better off just picking the first one that comes to mind and explaining your position.

In any case, I do have something specific in mind, I just need you all to provide me with sound bytes I can twist and use against you when I bring it up. Please don't let my motive dissuade you from participating.

 

[dolf]

lmao! you're priceless
xx

 

[Marquis]

Oh come on, this is total hatred.

26 views and I'm the only one who voted.

Humor me people.

 

[caela]

Alright I voted for answer B and I admit it. You can't change the past you can only learn from it, if part of that learning mean that some good can come out of something evil then that's wonderful. Blatant opprotunism such as the JFK game however should be discouraged and is just reprehensible (sp), how does it's maker sleep at night?

 

[Sir_Winston54]

If Nazi scientists had made a significant discovery from experimenting on concentration camp inmates, would it be wrong to use that knowledge to help people now?

No, it would not be wrong to use that knowledge to help people. As dolf said, it would be some comfort that those who suffered were still aiding others. IMNSHO, however, it most definitely would be wrong, however, to give honor, of any kind, to those "scientists."

Should evidence found in an unwarranted search be used to convict criminals?

(This opinion is based on my knowledge of U.S. law and may not apply in other countries.)
Unwarranted search? Yes. Illegal search? No. Not every search conducted without a warrant is illegal. Some searches that are illegal, according to current US rules, shouldn't be, and their fruits should be permitted to be used.

What about that new game where they recreate the JFK shooting. Is it wrong to play that?

I only know what little I've read about this game. However, based on being a teen at the time of JFK's death, and remembering the deep, heartfelt grief we felt, I believe that making a game of an event that touched and hurt so many of us so deeply is crass, uncouth, and morally reprehensible.

 

[Marquis]

As a sidenote, I believe the JFK game is ostensibly marketed to people interested in using it as a simulator tool to show just how incredible the single shooter theory is. Granted, the majority of people buying it are probably sadists (hey, does this make the game bdsm?) looking to get an assasination thrill, but there's probably a decent amount of people who are both.

Hell, I liked all the other parts of Clockwork Orange too.

 

[Marquis]

I want to mention that the above post was written in response to caela's thread and wasn't meant to belittle the tragedy of the JFK murder.

 

[s'lara]

Lots of discoveries are and have been found while not in the pursuit of wholesome furtherance of good. Bet you if Merck (or any large pharm. co.) found the cure for cancer, the blood flowing would be copious for sure. So, yes, if the discovery of a beneficial medical treatment, for a previously untreatable ailment, was discovered during the testing in Nazi camps, why let the birthplace of the treatment chokehold helping others? Turn it on its ear and make the treatment an exemplar of the old adage "evil serves its purpose, even if we cannot see it at first." Or something like that. i suck at sayings.

As for evidence found during an unwarranted search ... well, we're restricted by the law and whether or not the evidence found is damning, what we're talking about is a contravention of those laws and the dominoe effect would be rough. i am kind of on the fence. i think the answer to this one would certainly change given the circumstances -- e.g., i would say yes if it proved that John Doe was the long sought after serial rapist/murderer and i would likely say no if it violated the civil rights of an innocent person. The bottom line is we're all expected to be persecuted and protected by those laws no matter who or what we are.

The game? *shrugs* It takes an event that has significant emotional and historical importance in our country (the U.S.) and uses it for entertainment. The controversy factor alone guarantees that i would be turned off enough not to play it.

So, we are You going with this?

lara

 

[Marquis]

Poet Robert Lowell asked the profound question, "Yet, why not tell what happened?"

I go with option 2 across the board.

I would read every note the Nazi doctor wrote down. I'd even let his name be associated with any breakthrough. But his name would also be associated with the brutal atrocities it took to get there. In my rather brief time on this planet so far, I have found that it's almost always better to err on the side of more truth than less.

I follow the same policy with unwarranted searches. It's silly for known evidence to be inadmissable over minor technicalities. Perhaps punishments for conducting searches without a warrant could be stricter as a deterrent, but pretending no one sees the elephant in the living room seems dumb to me.

As for the game. No sense in me lying, hell I'd play it. I doubt there was any anti-Kennedy sentiment in the making of the game, just an idea to capitalize on a famous historical event. And you know what honestly, what's so fucking wrong with that? Civil War reenactments are very popular, and many more tears were shed during the Civil War than when JFK got shot. I guess that's not the best comparison in the world, but there are games that try to simulate World War 2 battles, and you know its only a matter of time before we get hit with 9-11 media. There will be multiple Pearl Harbor type movies about 9-11, there will be games and there will be fanfiction until it all slips into mythology and antiquity like everything else anyone ever thinks is important.

 

[Netzach]

It is tasteful to let at least 70 years lapse before making something into a simulated adrenaline rush, generally.

I vote B.

 

[vogueboy]

Re: Re: A question of means and ends.

No, it would not be wrong to use that knowledge to help people. As dolf said, it would be some comfort that those who suffered were still aiding others. IMNSHO, however, it most definitely would be wrong, however, to give honor, of any kind, to those "scientists."

Mmm, Why destroy history? Even if we omit one name we are already manipulating the events that has already happened.

What are we gaining? what version of History will our children learn?

The one that has happened? or the candy-coated one? because our current moral beliefs are too politically correct?

Yes, some of the expriements the Nazi scientists performed did yield benefits. And so did some of the experiments the Japanese scientists did at the same time in their concentration camps.

We all know the names of the scientists who built the A-bomb. We all know what happens when one is dropped on a city and what happens afterwards.

Did it yield benefits to mankind? Sure, It's powering my laptop right now. We Honoured and Recognized the names of those scientists. Is there a difference? They killed millions of people.

(Remember, scientists around the world were working for their countries' military at that time.)

Was the cost of Human lives too great a price to pay for our comfort?

Each side believed that they were the Ones benefitting Human Kind.

Unfortunately, only the Winners write their own version of history.

O

 

[m wisdom]

I voted before i read the first post, and now I cant change my vote .

Here is my take on your questions
If Nazi scientists had made a significant discovery from experimenting on concentration camp inmates, would it be wrong to use that knowledge to help people now?
The discovery should be used.

Should evidence found in an unwarranted search be used to convict criminals?
Yes, this is how it works in Sweden (I think). All evidence found can be used to convict criminals, but the police that makes an unwarranted or illegal search will be convicted of that. Meaning you could do it once if you don't mind losing your job and doing some time.

What about that new game where they recreate the JFK shooting. Is it wrong to play that?
Haven't heard anything about this game so I can't really say. But if people want to play or do something and they don't bother anybody else I usually have no problem with it.

 

[bridgeburner]

If Nazi scientists had made a significant discovery from experimenting on concentration camp inmates, would it be wrong to use that knowledge to help people now?

I only wish they HAD made some significant discovery to help weigh the karmic scale. If anything good can be brought out of suffering and evil I think it should be.

Should evidence found in an unwarranted search be used to convict criminals?

No. Unwarranted searches are illegal. Accidental discovery of incriminating evidence is fine, but an unwarranted search is harassment and violates the law. Does it mean that some criminals will go free? Yes, but what is more important is that it means that innocent citizens will not be subjected to unreasonable searches and seizures a right we are guaranteed by the Constitution.

What about that new game where they recreate the JFK shooting. Is it wrong to play that?

I don't think so. It might be a bit crass, but on the other hand it very well may have been the intent of the designers to provoke further study of alternate theories to the one we were handed by our government and it's never a bad idea to question the party line.


-B

 

[FungiUg]

I voted for B.

I've actually pondered this question myself, largely because I feel a great deal of negative activity in my own past contributed towards my dominance as an adult. So the morality of my own actions has had me ponder them.

In the case of the Nazi death camps where they did a great deal of medical experimentation on inmates... I have two thoughts around this.

Firstly, no matter the outcome, I can't agree with the morality of what happened. No society should be able to kill unwilling people for medical experimentation. Not even criminals should be treated thusly. A society which can do that dehumanises itself -- even if it is in a good cause, the damage it does to the society is irreperable. The means CREATE the end.

Secondly, after the unwilling horror that those people went through, the LEAST we can do is honour that by creating something positive from it. I don't see that as condoning what happened. Rather, it is acknowledging that it was wrong, and doing our best to make something RIGHT from it. We honour them by using what we learned from them to SAVE lives.

If we could change what happened, that would be different. But we cannot. Nor can we ignore what happened. So instead, by utilising the ill-gotten knowledge, we challenge ourselves to remember where it came from and to ensure it never happens again.

Military technology is less of a grey area for me. For example, the work of Von Braun and the German rocketry -- well yes, the use to which those rockets were put was criminal. However, I also believe that applies equally to Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I have no issues around using the skills and techniques that came out of the German research on rocketry: this is stuff everyone was working on anyway, it just happens that the Germans were a little more advanced.

Anyway... my thoughts on the issue.

 

[dolf]

i'm wondering what you've done that you're trying to justify here......can you tell i'm a mom, lol!
xx

 

[Marquis]

I hope the food for thought I passed out earlier will soften the blow of what I'm about to say, but if not; fuck it, I keeps it real.

Rape is something a lot of Litsters fantasize about, but I feel like whenever we discuss it any erotic potential is soon squashed by a bevy of political correctness; like a girl that will let you fuck her in the ass but makes you wear a condom.

So can I help it if the non-con stories on Lit bore the shit out of me?

I've got fucking jerking off to do, and stories about blonde bimbos that turn into nymphos after they get some black cock stuffed in them do not do the trick. Nor does the excessive gore of the more juvenile tales or the whimsical journies of some comic book painslut. I want to jerk off to a rape story that isn't affected or unbelievable. I want to hear true stories of real rapes in all their gritty details.

While I would probably jerk off to any media depicting true rape if I could find it, I am self-aware enough to realize my brain, as reptilian as Rosco might describe it, would eventually start oozing the guilt serum.

So what I want is for real women who have been raped to tell me about their experience(s), with the full knowledge that they will be doing so for purposes of my titilation. Masochists that I've cybered with in the past have offered their true (enough) stories to me, so I know this is something that is not uncommon no matter how any of you may choose to posture yourselves in this public forum.

I know I'm not the only one who wants this, so if any volunteers care to post their stories right in the thread I'm sure it will be appreciated. This board loses some of its anonymity with its growing culture and factions, so I understand if you want to just keep it between me and you. My PM box is always open.

 

[dolf]

ahh, i see

as long as the "victim" is aware of your interest and is happy with that then there is nothing wrong with that.
it might even be theraputic to her to change the way she has been looking at it...

having talked to a few men with rape urges i've come to realise that having urges doesn't make you a bad person, nobody can help what turns them on, it's how you cope with these urges that matters. if you are finding a safe outlet that involves consent then that's great
xx

 

[Marquis]

ahh, i see

as long as the "victim" is aware of your interest and is happy with that then there is nothing wrong with that.
it might even be theraputic to her to change the way she has been looking at it...

having talked to a few men with rape urges i've come to realise that having urges doesn't make you a bad person, nobody can help what turns them on, it's how you cope with these urges that matters. if you are finding a safe outlet that involves consent then that's great
xx

I take back everything I ever said about you (except for the stuff about you being really hot).

 

[Netzach]

Cool. And you have huevos to be open about it instead of doing some creepy ewwy "under the guise of therapy" bullshit that 90% of the guys out there would lay on people.

I don't really care if it strengthens the grassy knoll theory or cures cancer, getting off and having some catharsis is a good enough reason. Sticks, stones.

 

[FungiUg]

Fantasising about it and DOING it are two entirely different things. And don't believe anyone that tells you differently.

I think carthartic fantasising is better than trying to lie to yourself and repress what you feel. That way has all sorts of dangerous issues.

 

[Marquis]

Wow, I see much has changed since my old days on Lit; when I was lambasted in my original rape thread, my max hardcore thread and even my "i fantasize about fucking my horny students" thread that was erased by the censors.

This is too bad, I rather like being the villain. Maybe the av of me and my AK-47 softened my image.

 

[s'lara]

i say rock if it's straight up on the intention. Also reptilian as all heck. If face to face, hypnosis would likely help enhance the recollection process so that the emotions and pain could be reenacted realistically without the numbing down of time and therapy.