A question for my fellow editors.

[michchick98]

I've posted this in the AH as well.

==

Okay, I've searched through the forums here and can't find a definitive answer to this.

I'm editing a story for someone and I've been telling him that when addressing someone directly by their title, the title as well as the name is capitalized. But, when just referring to them as their title, the title is not capitalized.

Here are examples to show what I mean:

"Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Governor Jennifer Granholm," the announcer said.

In that instance, it's proper to capitalize governor, correct?

But if it were more like this:

The announcer waited for the crowd to calm down before he introduced the governor.

Would 'governor' be capitalized?

I just don't want to tell the author the wrong thing and have him look silly for making the changes when he was correct in the first place.

Here's a very small snippet of his story:

Princess GoldenFlower, with two of her maids, followed the eunuch. They went into a territory very few had ventured. They were within the emperor’s private sanctuary.

I changed this so 'eunuch' and 'emperor' weren't capitalized.

Also, here's another I am confused about:

As she kneeled down, waiting in front of his highness' big wooden chair, her heart started to pound.

He had 'his highness' capitalized, was I wrong to change it?

One more:

She was so deep in thought that she didn’t feel his presence until the eunuch spoke. “Please bow in the presence of His Highness.”

Again, I changed it so 'eunuch' was not capitalized, but the eunuch was speaking to the princess and referring to the emperor as 'his highness' so should it (his highness) be capitalized?

Yes, confusing I know, but I want to get this right for the author I am editing.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

I've posted this in the AH as well.

==

Okay, I've searched through the forums here and can't find a definitive answer to this.

I'm editing a story for someone and I've been telling him that when addressing someone directly by their title, the title as well as the name is capitalized. But, when just referring to them as their title, the title is not capitalized.

Here are examples to show what I mean:

"Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Governor Jennifer Granholm," the announcer said.

In that instance, it's proper to capitalize governor, correct?

But if it were more like this:

The announcer waited for the crowd to calm down before he introduced the governor.

Would 'governor' be capitalized?

I just don't want to tell the author the wrong thing and have him look silly for making the changes when he was correct in the first place.

Here's a very small snippet of his story:

Princess GoldenFlower, with two of her maids, followed the eunuch. They went into a territory very few had ventured. They were within the emperor’s private sanctuary.

I changed this so 'eunuch' and 'emperor' weren't capitalized.

Also, here's another I am confused about:

As she kneeled down, waiting in front of his highness' big wooden chair, her heart started to pound.

He had 'his highness' capitalized, was I wrong to change it?

One more:

She was so deep in thought that she didn’t feel his presence until the eunuch spoke. “Please bow in the presence of His Highness.”

Again, I changed it so 'eunuch' was not capitalized, but the eunuch was speaking to the princess and referring to the emperor as 'his highness' so should it (his highness) be capitalized?

Yes, confusing I know, but I want to get this right for the author I am editing.

You are correct to the best of my knowledge. Only pronouns are capitalized. In this case <Title Name> but if only the title, lowercase.

 

[michchick98]

You are correct to the best of my knowledge. Only pronouns are capitalized. In this case <Title Name> but if only the title, lowercase.

As I said in the AH, I thought it was correct, but I wanted to make I was telling the author correct information.

 

[meg1]

A title is capitalized when used in place of the name. Even "father" and "mother" are capitalized when used in place of the actual name.

My mom gave me a book.
I asked Mom about getting a new car for my birthday.

The president will give a speech later today.
Do you want a soda Mr. President?

My doctor prescribed Cipro for my infection.
Yes, Doctor, your patient has arrived.

The judge ruled again the plaintiff.
Please, Judge, let me have a five minute break.

 

[michchick98]

A title is capitalized when used in place of the name. Even "father" and "mother" are capitalized when used in place of the actual name.

My mom gave me a book.
I asked Mom about getting a new car for my birthday.

The president will give a speech later today.
Do you want a soda Mr. President?

My doctor prescribed Cipro for my infection.
Yes, Doctor, your patient has arrived.

The judge ruled again the plaintiff.
Please, Judge, let me have a five minute break.

That's essentially how I've explained it to the author whom I'm editing. Although it can be confusing, I think he's getting the concept after a few chapters, I've had to make less changes.

Thanks, Meg for your reply!

 

[meg1]

I've posted this in the AH as well.

==

Okay, I've searched through the forums here and can't find a definitive answer to this.

I'm editing a story for someone and I've been telling him that when addressing someone directly by their title, the title as well as the name is capitalized. But, when just referring to them as their title, the title is not capitalized.

Here are examples to show what I mean:

"Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Governor Jennifer Granholm," the announcer said.

In that instance, it's proper to capitalize governor, correct? yes

But if it were more like this:

The announcer waited for the crowd to calm down before he introduced the governor.

Would 'governor' be capitalized? no

I just don't want to tell the author the wrong thing and have him look silly for making the changes when he was correct in the first place.

Here's a very small snippet of his story:

Princess GoldenFlower, with two of her maids, followed the eunuch. They went into a territory very few had ventured. They were within the emperor’s private sanctuary.

I changed this so 'eunuch' and 'emperor' weren't capitalized. correct

Also, here's another I am confused about:

As she kneeled down, waiting in front of his highness' big wooden chair, her heart started to pound.

He had 'his highness' capitalized, was I wrong to change it? I would leave it capitalized...they are using is as a name: As she kneeled down, waiting in front of John's big wooden chair....

One more:

She was so deep in thought that she didn’t feel his presence until the eunuch spoke. “Please bow in the presence of His Highness.”

Again, I changed it so 'eunuch' was not capitalized, but the eunuch was speaking to the princess and referring to the emperor as 'his highness' so should it (his highness) be capitalized? eunuch-no His Highness-yes

Yes, confusing I know, but I want to get this right for the author I am editing.

I replied within.....if you can substitue a name in there, then it's capitalized, if not then it's lower case. The only word in there that I would have given leeway on is "the emperor". If the author pushes on that one, I would let him have it.

 

[meg1]

That's essentially how I've explained it to the author whom I'm editing. Although it can be confusing, I think he's getting the concept after a few chapters, I've had to make less changes.

Thanks, Meg for your reply!

No sweat....that took me forever to grasp, but now that I have, it seems to be sticking.

 

[michchick98]

I replied within.....if you can substitue a name in there, then it's capitalized, if not then it's lower case. The only word in there that I would have given leeway on is "the emperor". If the author pushes on that one, I would let him have it.

No, he's not pushing it, he's basically letting me edit where I see fit. However, in this instance the emperor in the story is not named, but referred to as the emperor throughout the chapter.

I changed all instances of 'The Emperor' to lowercase. I don't think it'll cause too much of a problem for him, honestly.

I've seen titles used without names as lower case and capitalized in stories on here as well as in books I've read so I always wondered what was the correct way.

Too bad I didn't pay better attention in school! But of course, that was a really, really, really long time ago!

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

I think UK English has a slightly different take on the capitalisation of nouns.

We tend to capitalise slightly more often than US English. For example in:
"Oh God," she exclaimed, we would always put a capital G.

I have annotated below where we differ from your usages.

The announcer waited for the crowd to calm down before he introduced the governor.

Would 'governor' be capitalized? UK English would capitalise any title where it refers to an individual, as in this instance where everyone knows that the introduction is to a particular governor whom they have come to hear.


Princess GoldenFlower, with two of her maids, followed the eunuch. They went into a territory very few had ventured. They were within the emperor’s private sanctuary.

I changed this so 'eunuch' and 'emperor' weren't capitalized. UK English would capitalise Emperor on the basis that there is only one emperor in the country. If the sentence read:
An emperor's private sanctuary is a place where few ever venture.
then the indefinite article would mean that no capital letter is necessary; however, substituting "The" for "An" would imply that the capital letter returns on "Emperor".


Also, here's another I am confused about:

As she kneeled down, waiting in front of his highness' big wooden chair, her heart started to pound.

He had 'his highness' capitalized, was I wrong to change it? UK English would capitalise, since the identity of the title holder is clear.

As to "eunuch", I do not capitalise that usually, any more than I would capitalise "carpenter" or "waiter", but in the Kobekistan novels I do capitalise Chief Eunuch because it is a title, just as you would capitalise Justice of the Supreme Court, or even District Attorney.

I find in these complex and exotic cases it helps a lot to think about what you would do in more mundane circumstances. if you transmute:
As she knelt down, waiting in front of his highness' big wooden chair, her heart started to pound.
to
As she stood, waiting in front of the Principal's big wooden desk, her heart started to pound.
then it becomes clear that your author was right to capitalise.

 

[emap]

I have a question, related so don't yell at me snoopy.

I don't get it why are you capitalizing his in His Highness? I mean his is not a title, it is not standing in for a name, it is simply refering to a person by sex, his, Highness would be capitalized just as has been said, but I don't get the His Highness bit. His is not part of the title, it is not leading the sentence, so why is it capitalized?

Case in point, 'Introducing his Majesty the King.' His is not capitalized there, so why is it capitalized for highness?

 

[michchick98]

I think UK English has a slightly different take on the capitalisation of nouns.

We tend to capitalise slightly more often than US English. For example in:
"Oh God," she exclaimed, we would always put a capital G.

When I edit, if anyone uses the phrase 'Oh God' and God is not capitalized, I correct it because that's the way I would do it. It's my belief that in this case, God is a proper name.

However, if using a sentence such as this:

The man had god-like powers

I would not capitalize god. The English language (U.S. or U.K.) is so damn confusing!

As to "eunuch", I do not capitalise that usually, any more than I would capitalise "carpenter" or "waiter", but in the Kobekistan novels I do capitalise Chief Eunuch because it is a title, just as you would capitalise Justice of the Supreme Court, or even District Attorney.

I wouldn't capitalize chief eunuch, justice of the Supreme Court or district attorney simply because it doesn't preceed a name. (Yes, I capitalized Supreme Court because that's a proper name as far as I'm concerned...just like God.)

So if it were Chief Eunuch Lang, Justice Thurgood Marshall of the Supreme Court or District Attorney William Smith (just using some of the names as an example) then yes I would capitalize them.

But if it were just being referred to any of those titles, I wouldn't. That's what I told the author, with the exception of 'His Highness', but I told him I'd leave that up to him to decide if he wanted to capitalize it or not.

I find in these complex and exotic cases it helps a lot to think about what you would do in more mundane circumstances. if you transmute:
As she knelt down, waiting in front of his highness' big wooden chair, her heart started to pound.
to
As she stood, waiting in front of the Principal's big wooden desk, her heart started to pound.
then it becomes clear that your author was right to capitalise.

Now, if I were using the second sentence, I wouldn't capitalize principal unless I used a name:

As she stood, waiting in front of Principal Smith's big wooden desk, her heart started to pound.


I would guess it depends on the editor and author which way would be best to use the capitalization of titles. As I said, I've read titles both ways in stories published here as well as in books.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

... I don't get it why are you capitalizing his in His Highness? I mean his is not a title, ...

Actually in the UK royalty it is a style, rather than a title, but styles are also capitalised.

There was much dispute as to whether the late Diana, Princess of Wales should lose the style Her Royal Highness after the divorce and whether it should be restored posthumously. For some of this argument see http://www.baronage.co.uk/diana/di-arms1.html which makes the capitalisation clear, if nothing else.

Note particularly the capitalisation of The Princess of Wales, the distinction between that and Princess of Wales, and the capitalisation of Sovereign when referring to the head of state in the UK (whether a king or a queen).

In this context http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1997/09/09/ndi09.html is also of interest, especially for its lack of capitalisation of Earl.

Footnote The appellation "people's princess" was applied to her after her death by the then Prime Minister, whose name escaped me almost as soon as he was elected.

 

[emap]

Ah, silly thing style.

I suppose it's a good thing I'm an american, I'm not supposed to have style so I don't have to follow it either.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Ah, silly thing style.

I suppose it's a good thing I'm an american, I'm not supposed to have style so I don't have to follow it either.

Being from a military background, I camoflouge. When I'm not sure about capitilization I just rework the sentence and make the questionable word the first word, which is always capitilized - devious, I know, but a truthful admission.

Hey, better be sneaky than flat-out wrong!

LOL!

 

[delicate_yielding]

When I'm not sure about capitilization I just rework the sentence and make the questionable word the first word, which is always capitilized

LOL

I did that all the time in high school and college!

Same deal with awkward-looking punctuation, like question marks followed by periods.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

Ah, silly thing style.

I suppose it's a good thing I'm an american, I'm not supposed to have style so I don't have to follow it either.

Oh dear. Every American has a style. You abolished all the nice, esoteric styles when you abolished titles, but every US Citizen is Mr., Mrs., Master, Miss, or Ms., (even Mr. President) and the style is always capitalised.

Edited to add: I am not sure whether Reverend, Monsignor, Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, Rabbi, Ayatollah, Imperial Wizard, Jedi Master, etc. are formally (i.e. in legal documents) used in the USA as styles for various ranks in the assorted organised religions, but if they are then they would be capitalised when used as styles.

 

[emap]

Actually, that isn't a style so much as a title, which of course is always capitalized.

Which seems odd to me, puritans were heavy into the controlling every aspect of everyone, but they decided to do away with titles having power by giving everyone a title. So from the instant your born to your death, you are a titled person here. Of course we are also big into using a job title, before or after the name, it depends and it's very weird.

Medical doctors are usually Doctor John Smith say, though they do go with John Smith MD on occassion. President is always before the name, congressman is always before the name, supreme court judges are either.

When you go into regular jobs, it depends as well, police officers are before the name, CEO is after, lawyer is after, coach is before. Secretary is after, though librarian is generally before. Actor or actress is either, though director tends to be before.

Some jobs they don't get listed before or after the name, bartender, waitress trash collector. Cook is listed after the name, chef and manager are both listed before the name.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

Actually, that isn't a style so much as a title, which of course is always capitalized.

Which seems odd to me, puritans were heavy into the controlling every aspect of everyone, but they decided to do away with titles having power by giving everyone a title. ...

Dictionary definitions:

Title: An appellation attached to an individual or family in virtue of rank, office, attainment, etc.; esp. an appellation of honour pertaining to a person of high rank.

Style: The recognized or correct designation for a person or thing.

What the Puritans did was abolish the monarchy, and hence they lost all titles, since there was no monarch to bestow them, leaving only styles. The only styles among the Puritans were Brother and Sister, since they thought even Mr. and Mrs. were too formal. Ever since then the American people have been sneaking titles back into everyday life by using terms such as Doctor, Professor, Hamptons Homespun Princess, and the like.

 

[Kiele]

I think you can capitalize 'the Emperor' if you're using it as a title. Like a bad guy in a Bond film might be called 'the Doctor.'