A Quandary...

[riverofshudder]

Have you (by you I mean anyone who reads this who has dealt with this issue) ever had a D/s (BDSM based) relationship evolve into a "real" (as in deeper than just BDSM) relationship? If so how did you both deal with it? Beyond the obvious, did it change your BDSM? Was your relationship stronger because of the foundation in BDM?

It's been an odd few weeks for me (for many reasons) and am curious as to people's experiences with this here. Or just plain advice? I've had many subs over the years but none of them have ever evolved past a D/s level. There has always been feelings there, respect maybe even a form of love...but never anything remotely near the territory my sub and I are going into now.

I've read alot about realtionships starting as BF/GF moving into a D/s thing but rarely the otherway around. Thus my curiosity.

 

[catalina_francisco]

For me, a D/s relationship is a real relationship, seriously.

Catalina

 

[*curious*]

I'm with Catalina- I can't comprehend D/s without it being a "real relationship". I'm confused by the question...

 

[riverofshudder]

I've had a "real" realtionship with someone for years. She is my best friend, my partner, my lover....she has let me indulge my BDSM tastes openly for the past 8 years (she does not enjoy BDSM). So my subs have always been seperate from my "real" relationship (not the best term I know but it will have to do in this case, vanilla isn't quite right). However my current sub and I have grown very close, closer than any other sub I have ever had. For that matter proably closer than any GF I've ever had, minus my current relationship. We have shared 4 VERY dramatic events the past month or so, outside of both our control abnd our realtionship (i.e. a car accident, a parent's death, a friends rape and some health issues). All of that has drawn us very close together. Well beyond the bounds of what we started with as strictly a D/s. There is also some tension in my "real" realtionship, not based around this issue (something that has been lingering for a while) and I think I let myself get close to myself. I like how I feel with her and I like how she makes me feel. I've discussed this all my my "real" relationship and she is fine with it (yes I know our realtionship is VERY not typical, I'm not looking for judgement here, so if that is all you have to offer please don't), albeit a bit shocked as I am. All three of us had dinner together last night and layed it all out. It's a very odd time. I'm not the type to be unsure of things but I am here.

Also I'm not looking to leave one for the other, the three of us mostly rulled that our last night (it's not what any of us want). However we are being open and honest about our feelings, mainly my sub and I.

 

[FurryFury]

Okay so you are on "uncharted" territory for you and your SO. I leave out your D/s partner because she may or may not be used to "more" in a relationship than "just" D/s and I have no way of knowing if she is or not at this point.

The good news IMO is that you are being open and all involved are able to communicate about the situation. Keep that up and I feel things will work out just fine one way or another.

I don't have any answers for you.

Good luck to the three of you.

Fury

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

River,

I would have to be honest and say I am struggling with your appraisal of having a D/s relationship anywhere near true optimum until recently. D/s relationships by the level of truth and clarity alone can not rule out awareness and support of the dramatic events you speak of.

Seems you have previously defined your own spin on things and that was excluding your submissives from your life out of set hours and context. In which case your experience of D/s has been very limited .

What wonderful yet treacherous waters you tread now. The happiness of three people reliant upon well made choices. You have 'let' your submissive grow into areas of your life that appear to have been the previous territory of 'miss real'. Did 'miss real' ever agree to that or was she just happy for you to take the 'dark stuff' else where.

So you all three are considering polyamory ? Some people live this way with great Joy and dignity . You have alot more than a post in Lit to consider. I really wish you well River.

@}-}rebecca-----

PS ( added in edit )
Was just wondering then perhaps you had objectified previous submissives to fit into the part of your life that permits for expression of D/s within a box . That to you, full D/s took place because in the context it met your needs. Your 'needs' including very specific limits. That the limitation of interaction with your submissives set by you and agreed to by them did not permit cross over into causing you conflict in your 'real life'. Then life, time and experience throws you a few spin balls. Your submissive becomes less objectified as she meets your newer set of out of your immediate control issues . Huh.....your seriously loving this woman's ability past the previous 'box' now. You soooooooooo better tread carefully though with full honesty. I am a little daunted with giving my fuller comments at this stage until you have had opportunity of reply River.

 

[riverofshudder]

My background as a Dom. goes back much farther than my current relationship with my "real", 5 years prior actually. I started as a sub to a Mistress, that is where I learned alot about the BDSM world and also learned that I am not a sub. I'm still in touch with here (she was my GF for a while) and I see her as my mentor of sorts. After that I had a few D/s relationships that were also BF/GF. I dove very deep into all the mental aspects that I could with these lovers and whatnot. When I met my current "real" I knew she had no interest in BDSM, in fact at the time I was VERY burned out on the whole "lifestyle" and took a break you could say. When the urges to reopen the BDSM part of my life resurfaced a few years later my "real" and I discussed it and I began to take subs. That was 6 years ago and 7 years into my journey with BDSM (it's been 13 years now I've been in this world). I suppose those subs I took in the past few years were very sectioned off in my head and life. I started as simple (what I define, I don't want to get into this again) Top/bottom play, slap and tickle type stuff which only reawakened my need to go deeper into the mental aspects. Without the mental connection to me it's just play and that no longer interests me. So I began, with my "real's" blessing to go deeper mentally with a few subs. Maybe given my real relationship I still closed off a part of my emotions and mind and I probably did seclude that part of me to the three subs I had. However I layed it all out with them. i never hid the fact that I had another and we could only go so deep. It worked and it worked well. Say what you will but it was what it was and it served it's purpose, for both us in the given D/s relationships.

Then I met my current sub. We started very much the same way as the 3 others prior to her. However, even before the drama we have mutually experienced recently, we started getting closer and closer. We just have that vibe between us and have an amazing connection. If we had met as both as single people (she is single) then I have no doubt she would be my GF right now and we would be pretty serious right now. All that being said we are very serious right now, both in the vanilla aspects and the BDSM ones. Like I mentioned my "real" and I have been having issues as of late, totally unrelated to this (think...ticking clock, idea of a family...etc etc and both of us being on VERY different pages). So maybe as an escape I've allowed my current sub deeper into me than I had planned or expected. Point is I neither regret it nor would change it. I've been very honest with her, she with me and both of us with my "real".

So there you go. My history in a few lines. Wasn't really planning on laying that all out but again I want to be clear....

My original question was aimed at the idea of meeting a D or s at first and THEN having said relationship turn more "real" (however you define that) and people's experiences with that. As opposed to a "real" relationship moving into BDSM.....

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hmmm, so what it sounds like your saying is BDSM got a bit much for you so you jumped knowlingly and willingly in the vanilla pool and entered a committed relationship which you term as your 'real' relationship. Then you decided maybe you could do with a sub or two and somehow got the approval of your 'real' as long as play was all it was and she was your only 'real'. Now you have found a sub you actually think could be more and surprise surprise you decide your 'real' relationship is in difficulty, but of course totally not related to your choices. nehaviour, or actions...oh no no that would be dishonest and less than nice....so your thinking perhaps you could trade the old one in for the new one but you really want someone here to tell you that, give you permission so to speak, so you can claim no 'real' responsibility for your actions, but get your flaky (yes, my oppinion I realise) way anyhow?!! Me thinks perhaps if you had previously learned so much about this lifestyle you brush up on some of the aspects like trust, honesty, responsibility, appropriate boundaries, and being 'real'. Sorry to be so blunt, but you really do not do it for me and if I were the sub, I would be running for the hills, not jumpoing on your bandwagon.

Catalina

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Hmmm, so what it sounds like your saying is BDSM got a bit much for you so you jumped knowlingly and willingly in the vanilla pool and entered a committed relationship which you term as your 'real' relationship. Then you decided maybe you could do with a sub or two and somehow got the approval of your 'real' as long as play was all it was and she was your only 'real'. Now you have found a sub you actually think could be more and surprise surprise you decide your 'real' relationship is in difficulty, but of course totally not related to your choices. nehaviour, or actions...oh no no that would be dishonest and less than nice....so your thinking perhaps you could trade the old one in for the new one but you really want someone here to tell you that, give you permission so to speak, so you can claim no 'real' responsibility for your actions, but get your flaky (yes, my oppinion I realise) way anyhow?!! Me thinks perhaps if you had previously learned so much about this lifestyle you brush up on some of the aspects like trust, honesty, responsibility, appropriate boundaries, and being 'real'. Sorry to be so blunt, but you really do not do it for me and if I were the sub, I would be running for the hills, not jumpoing on your bandwagon.

Catalina

can I just say I think I luv you? No 'real'ly....

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Sorry to be so blunt ...

Here, let me make it easier for you ...

[the Sheriff has said he'll cut out Robin Hood's heart with a spoon]
Guy of Gisborne: Why a spoon, cousin? Why not an axe?
Sheriff of Nottingham: Because it's DULL, you twit. It'll hurt more.

 

[cati]

...snickers..

 

[catalina_francisco]

can I just say I think I luv you? No 'real'ly....

LOL, well you're rather nice yourself!!

Catalina

 

[Private_Label]

My original question was aimed at the idea of meeting a D or s at first and THEN having said relationship turn more "real" (however you define that) and people's experiences with that. As opposed to a "real" relationship moving into BDSM.....

Personally, I'm looking for a two in one deal, romantic relationship and D/s with the same person. However...

I have to give you credit for talking to your SO about your needs and not just going behind her back. I have to give you SO credit for allowing you to continue your exploration. However I think you need to take a step back for a minute, and take the D/s out of the picture for a moment...

Let me reframe/rephrase the situation, if I may.

You have an SO who doesn't like a hobby of yours (call it Antique cars, for example). Your SO knows that this is an important thing to you, she doesn't like it, but she sees no rational reason to not let you go look at them and drive them.

You go to car shows, and meet a woman there who shares your interest in Antique cars. Your SO is Ok with you and your new friend carpooling to all the shows, even ones that are out of state. People being the social animals they are, you talk and something clicks in the friendship. It's great when it happens in any friendship that becomes close, be it one that you might take in a romantic direction or one that is just a close friendship.

Now add in friction with your SO. Do you see where I am going with this?

Now let me ask you another question...

If you had not met this Sub, would there be the same amount of friction with your SO? Sometimes people grow in different areas, over the years their goals and dreams change. Without the Sub, is this a deal breaker for either of you? Is your SO willing to stay with you with or without children? Are you willing to stay with your SO if the children issue is a deal breaker for her? Would you be happy to give her what she wants/needs and be able to happily live with that decision? Children are not the same as buying a house together. Even if you break up with your SO later, the children will still be a responsibility you both share. If the friction is there, and would be there WITHOUT the Sub, I think you know the answer to that dilemma. Don't you?

 

[Netzach]

Hmmm, so what it sounds like your saying is BDSM got a bit much for you so you jumped knowlingly and willingly in the vanilla pool and entered a committed relationship which you term as your 'real' relationship. Then you decided maybe you could do with a sub or two and somehow got the approval of your 'real' as long as play was all it was and she was your only 'real'. Now you have found a sub you actually think could be more and surprise surprise you decide your 'real' relationship is in difficulty, but of course totally not related to your choices. nehaviour, or actions...oh no no that would be dishonest and less than nice....so your thinking perhaps you could trade the old one in for the new one but you really want someone here to tell you that, give you permission so to speak, so you can claim no 'real' responsibility for your actions, but get your flaky (yes, my oppinion I realise) way anyhow?!! Me thinks perhaps if you had previously learned so much about this lifestyle you brush up on some of the aspects like trust, honesty, responsibility, appropriate boundaries, and being 'real'. Sorry to be so blunt, but you really do not do it for me and if I were the sub, I would be running for the hills, not jumpoing on your bandwagon.

Catalina

Uh it sounds like he's been doing this with disclosure to everyone. I suppose if anyone runs into any difficulty whatsoever in a poly relationship they should just shut the fuck up about it or get hit with the morality police stick???? Or are poly situations subject to rules that other kinds of relationships are not?

Frankly I find this kind of extra scrutiny and the conclusions here kind of repulsive. I'm glad everyone's so brilliantly figured out.

Yes I've had M/s relationships change flavor and scope with more emotional intimacy. I'd be happy to discuss it in PM.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Uh it sounds like he's been doing this with disclosure to everyone. I suppose if anyone runs into any difficulty whatsoever in a poly relationship they should just shut the fuck up about it or get hit with the morality police stick???? Or are poly situations subject to rules that other kinds of relationships are not?

Frankly I find this kind of extra scrutiny and the conclusions here kind of repulsive. I'm glad everyone's so brilliantly figured out.

Yes I've had M/s relationships change flavor and scope with more emotional intimacy. I'd be happy to discuss it in PM.

Since when have I had that reaction Netz, or ever said I had it all figured out..actually I am usually fairly open about the fact I am far from perfect, but I do have and voice opinions and perceptions just as you do on occasion. The conclusions I came too were from his own words which were nothing to do with a consensual situation but more so one of convenience for him but dressed up as something else, and openly admitting there was more info being shared between him and his new sub, than with the 'real' partner which to me is not poly as most understand it or disclosing fairly with a partner who willingly allowed him this freedom within guidelines he agreed to, but now rewards with secrecy....and I was not alone in this perception. Like many, he wants his cake and eat it too, but only in the flavours he likes and when he likes and how he likes with no responsibility to anyone else.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

It sounds to me like the vanilla rel. has been well aware of any additional explorations - how is this somehow "nonconsensual?"

Additionally, it's very rare that people all sit down and have a dinner to hash things out when someone's going totally behind someone's back. You're creating victimhood for someone who's aware of a situation and willing to put up with it. Yeah you don't like it. You don't have to.

It's great to have agreed to guidelines in a relationship involving third parties, as shocking as this may seem sometimes unpredictable situations arise. I guess the better thing to do would be to ditch the sub because things are getting hot and heavy and try to be vanilla for the sake of the other partner? Or ditch the other partner even if she seems to want to make a go of it?

But sitting down to try and hash things out like adults is the cowardly way out?

 

[catalina_francisco]

It sounds to me like the vanilla rel. has been well aware of any additional explorations - how is this somehow "nonconsensual?"

Additionally, it's very rare that people all sit down and have a dinner to hash things out when someone's going totally behind someone's back. You're creating victimhood for someone who's aware of a situation and willing to put up with it. Yeah you don't like it. You don't have to.

It's great to have agreed to guidelines in a relationship involving third parties, as shocking as this may seem sometimes unpredictable situations arise. I guess the better thing to do would be to ditch the sub because things are getting hot and heavy and try to be vanilla for the sake of the other partner? Or ditch the other partner even if she seems to want to make a go of it?

But sitting down to try and hash things out like adults is the cowardly way out?

Noncosensual in that the long term partner does not know everything and he has admitted going outside the previous agreement. Reread the posts and you will read how he says he is not sharing everything with the 'real', but is with the sub..then of course the hint that he has only become disatisfied with the long term partner only since changing his feelings for his sub, but hints all that is the long term partners fault. My understanding of poly and relationships in general, but particularly in this lifestyle is there are guidelines and limits set up and anything going outside that is discussed fully and resolved, not changed by one on a whim...I don't see that here, I see more an opportunist who is being deceptive. Where does trust come in with someone who is so prone to doing what they want regardless of what was agreed?

Think what you like, but for myself, I have firm boundaries in life and if I commit to someone I commit, not just up and decide somewhere along the track to change step outside the agreed terms and make excuses while blaming the person who has kept to the terms and been generous. I have never had a problem vanilla or D/s in keeping my eyes from wandering where they are not supposed to. I guess I just find life easier to have firm boundaries than to drift with the tide...it has strengthened with age and wisdom, and I don't regret it. I can be flexible, but there is a difference between flexible and flaky based on the moment, and there are some things flexible just does not work with. If there is any victim in this scenario, it is the long term partner who is being given selective information despite her never stopping him from doing what he wanted.

Catalina

 

[SirFace]

River, I'm on your side in this. Ive been in similar situations (without the BDSM angle). You've been way more honest with yourself and your partners than I was. It seems you've pushed some buttons based on some the responses here. Your question seems to revolve around how the BDSM angle works into whats happening in your life and that I cant help you with.

Heres some stupid little things I use to help me when I am clueless what to do. They can be dissected to death but they are mostly true.



Lifes short

Be Happy

You are not responsible for someones elses happiness. You are responsible for making yourself happy. If you're not happy, you're not going to be very useful to anyone else. This does not give you a pass at being a bad person.

Things change




If this sounds like I'm giving advice its not. And everyone has their own list of core beliefs.

Good luck

 

[JMohegan]

Personally, I'm looking for a two in one deal, romantic relationship and D/s with the same person.

I share your predilection. However, given the flak on the thread I'll make a few observations.

Many people are involved in D/s relationships with someone other than a primary partner. The obvious example involves cheating spouses, but many others deliberately separate some aspects of their personal life from D/s relationships for the simple reason that they enjoy serving or being served without emotional attachments.

Though sensitive to the concerns of their D/s partner in a crisis, these people never get introduced to the partner's parents or leaned on in an emergency or wined & dined on New Year's Eve or punched in as ICE in their partner's cell phone. They neither expect nor want these things as part of their D/s experiences.

Frankly, I've noticed that many of these non-primary partnerships last longer than those with deep emotional expectations.

As far as advice goes, I'd say to the OP that Private Label's post 13 is well worth a careful read.

 

[the captians wench]

Noncosensual in that the long term partner does not know everything and he has admitted going outside the previous agreement. Reread the posts and you will read how he says he is not sharing everything with the 'real', but is with the sub..then of course the hint that he has only become disatisfied with the long term partner only since changing his feelings for his sub, but hints all that is the long term partners fault. My understanding of poly and relationships in general, but particularly in this lifestyle is there are guidelines and limits set up and anything going outside that is discussed fully and resolved, not changed by one on a whim...I don't see that here, I see more an opportunist who is being deceptive. Where does trust come in with someone who is so prone to doing what they want regardless of what was agreed?

Think what you like, but for myself, I have firm boundaries in life and if I commit to someone I commit, not just up and decide somewhere along the track to change step outside the agreed terms and make excuses while blaming the person who has kept to the terms and been generous. I have never had a problem vanilla or D/s in keeping my eyes from wandering where they are not supposed to. I guess I just find life easier to have firm boundaries than to drift with the tide...it has strengthened with age and wisdom, and I don't regret it. I can be flexible, but there is a difference between flexible and flaky based on the moment, and there are some things flexible just does not work with. If there is any victim in this scenario, it is the long term partner who is being given selective information despite her never stopping him from doing what he wanted.

Catalina

Maybe I'm reading this differently, but it was my understanding that he was sharing more with the new sub that he has in the past, but didn't say that he didn't share these same feelings and events with his real. I do agree that this new connection with the sub could directly relate to the problems in the real relationship, but it is just as likely that the problems in the real relationship are helping this new connection to be formed as it is that the new connection is the cause of the problems in the real. Personally I never read at all that he was being selective in what he disclosed to the real partner.

River, I had a simular experience that wasn't related to BDSM at all, and I was actuall in the position of your "real". I'd be happy to share with you in pm. For now all I'll say is never close off the line of comunication. Even if you don't think she'll be happy with what you have to share, it needs to be shared and in a non confrontaional way. Best of luck

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

When the 'issue' with River is resolved Thread wise. Could someone please get back to me and explain how

• a relationship evolves past a D/s relationship and if so into what
• what the apparent ' bounds/inherent limitations'' to a relationship that is strictly D/s are
• one particpates in a D/s relationship and excludes 'romance'
• one serves or enjoys being served because D/s relationships have no emotional attachments or deep emotional expectations

There are perhaps a few dozen or so questions I have in relation to each of the listed above for my own personal clarification. Though I'll be grateful for the core answers to date.

Many Thanks

@}-}rebecca----

 

[Netzach]

[*] one particpates in a D/s relationship and excludes 'romance'

Very simple. I expect obedience and service and I'm not "in love" with the slave. How he feels about me is his responsibility and frankly his issue - as my property it's not my problem, if "falling in love with me" makes him miore obedient, fine. If it makes him less obedient there is a problem. Harsh, but accurate.

[*] one serves or enjoys being served because D/s relationships have no emotional attachments or deep emotional expectations


That's not something to be assumed from point 1. I love my cats very much and I'd do absurd things for their safety and happiness, but I'm not romantically involved with my cats.

 

[shy slave]

When the 'issue' with River is resolved Thread wise. Could someone please get back to me and explain how

• a relationship evolves past a D/s relationship and if so into what
• what the apparent ' bounds/inherent limitations'' to a relationship that is strictly D/s are
• one particpates in a D/s relationship and excludes 'romance'
• one serves or enjoys being served because D/s relationships have no emotional attachments or deep emotional expectations

There are perhaps a few dozen or so questions I have in relation to each of the listed above for my own personal clarification. Though I'll be grateful for the core answers to date.

Many Thanks

@}-}rebecca----

I am also curious about some of these questions.

I know people can have a BDSM relationship without an emotional attachment and some also call it a D/s relationship.
But I can't imagine allowing someone to use me if I think they have no emotional attachment to me at all.
For a start I would not feel I could completly trust them

I haven't always been madly in love with the person I have experienced BDSM with.
My first r/l experience was with a very nice man. We had 'set-in-stone' bounderies about the emotional attachment. Neither of us wanted that at that time. He wanted to help me experience new things and I wanted that to find out if I would like the reality of my thoughts.
However we did like each other and respect each other.
He was a private person, did not and does not attend munches and keeps his BDSM side far away from his every day life. His life is complete, he does not want a full time relationship (at least he didn't then).
Had we met at a different time in our lives we may have had a different relationship.
He was sweet, calm, in control and sadistic. More happened to me in the two short sessions I was with him than has ever happened since. I have a great deal of respect for him and he allowed me to find who i really was, then allow me to find the right person to suit my needs.
He was very clear, this was exploring BDSM not D/s; D/s is about two people exploring a deeper and more meaningful relationship

His understanding and explanation of things has coloured my view of what I now believe (in a positive way),
D/s is different from BDSM.
D/s is the relationship, BDSM describes the activities that are a part of that relationship.

 

[the captians wench]

When the 'issue' with River is resolved Thread wise. Could someone please get back to me and explain how

• a relationship evolves past a D/s relationship and if so into what
• what the apparent ' bounds/inherent limitations'' to a relationship that is strictly D/s are
• one particpates in a D/s relationship and excludes 'romance'
• one serves or enjoys being served because D/s relationships have no emotional attachments or deep emotional expectations

There are perhaps a few dozen or so questions I have in relation to each of the listed above for my own personal clarification. Though I'll be grateful for the core answers to date.

Many Thanks

@}-}rebecca----

I have friends that I carry on certain a certian D/s relationship with. We both know that there is no romatic involement. I care for them dearly as I do all of my friends, but there isn't any love there beyond a frendship level. We scene, we cuddle, we share our day, our week, talk about everything and anything. I've served in cooking, cleaning, sewing and even bathing these friends. For me it fills a void that Master simply can't at this time. He's aware of my relationship with my friends, and has suported it thru our entire relationship. I don't like the term River used "slap and tickle" but for the most part I guess that would be correct. We hang out, talk, maybe eat, then my ass gets turned lovely shades of red, purple, and black, and we watch tv, talk maybe cuddle maybe shower. On occation that leads to a very comfy sleeping arangement full of cuddles and the random pinch of a nipple. I guess the strangest part is how comfortable it all feels. It doesn't feel odd at all, it just feels natural, and nothing has ever been forced. *shrug* but that's me

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

[*] one particpates in a D/s relationship and excludes 'romance'

Very simple. I expect obedience and service and I'm not "in love" with the slave. How he feels about me is his responsibility and frankly his issue - as my property it's not my problem, if "falling in love with me" makes him more obedient, fine. If it makes him less obedient there is a problem. Harsh, but accurate.

Netz , thank you for your views I have considered them and can see your point. 'Romance' is not a word I would have chosen first off to express what I am trying to say here but it was used in posts above so I included it.

I do think the Dominant is in part responsible with how his submissive/slave feels about them. Obedience and service are ongoing within reason irrespect of the current temprement of either Dominant or submissive. If a submissive's conduct is less than obedient then I would put that down to issues of respect ( both of selfrespect and lack of it and also for the Dominant they serve) . I personally don't consider lack of obedience as an 'option' or as something that can or should be enhanced by degrees of charm exhibited by a Dominant.

Perhaps this boils down in some ways once again to words and the meanings we individually attribute to them ? I am a submissive , not a bottom. If I knowingly chose to bottom for a Top/Dominant the context you have expressed Netz above to me would be appropriate.

[*] one serves or enjoys being served because D/s relationships have no emotional attachments or deep emotional expectations
That's not something to be assumed from point 1. I love my cats very much and I'd do absurd things for their safety and happiness, but I'm not romantically involved with my cats.

Serving for the sheer sake of enjoying it is something I do for family , friends and occasionally strangers. That is if you take the word serve at its base level and don't extend it into BDSM pursuits which in these scenarios would be inappropriate. Much the same as you have qualified about your care for your cats Netz. I really enjoy making people happy, more so the point when I have little to nothing to gain from the 'transaction' than seeing another human being feel validated, cared for and valued. These pursuits of service are not random , fingers crossed and hope for the best outcomes. I invest as much emotional and intellectual time as is appropriate for each given situation whether it be a simple act that serves best or something far more intricate. Now if I site taking the same actions tweak them by emotional involvement to the extent I am 'owned' by my Dominant , multiply that by a hundred and we are still not hitting the mark for the peace that flows back to me. Its simply for me a very difficult thing to express here in words. There is love involved its real I not only express it but I feel it. As I said just before , for me it comes as a form of completion, a peace that I know I never find anywhere else.