A place to discuss the craft of writing: tricks, philosophies, styles

[SkyBubble]

Editing as I go is something that I used to do, but it didn't work out for me because I would never finish anything.

Kurt Vonnegut said there are two types of writers. He called them bashers and swoopers. I'm more of the swooper inclination.

Bashers, Vonnegut said, write a paragraph or two, then edit it until they're satisfied, then do the same with the next paragraph, and so on.

Swoopers, OTOH, try to get the whole thing down while it's flowing, then go back and make their edits.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Isn't htat pretty much what every story on the site boils down to?

Not at all. That's a surprising comment from someone who registered on the site in 2006. Surely you've found stories with more depth than that?

 

[FrancesScott]

Not at all. That's a surprising comment from someone who registered on the site in 2006. Surely you've found stories with more depth than that?

I thought that too, but I’m trying to behave better around folk.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I thought that too, but I’m trying to behave better around folk.

That was my second attempt, being more polite.

 

[SkyBubble]

Academics (not all, but many. Most, perhaps) have a horrible tendency not to let sentences end, ever.

One of the longest sentences I have read is the first paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. Yes, the first paragraph is just one long sentence. And Jefferson was considered an excellent writer.

 

[SkyBubble]

Last week I wrote a story, Tammy, Jessica, Yuliya (4.7k words, rated 4.72 in Lesbian). It took less than twelve hours, from getting the idea to submitting the story for publication. I enjoyed writing it, and it's getting plenty of votes and views. Several very positive comments as well.

But for the first time I've lost pretty much all interest in it. Normally, I love all my stories. I love to reread them, for the sex and the emotion and the clever banter. I'm probably my own biggest fan.

This one? It might as well be someone else's story. I don't feel any connection to the narrator, even though I channelled quite a bit of my own past into her feelings. The sex? I reread the story this afternoon, and nothing.

After two years of writing, and dozens of stories - and Writing Exercise snippets as well - it's an odd feeling.

I've had stories I wrote, was finished with, had no need to revisit, and some time later (months, years) something said "write more about her."

 

[SkyBubble]

This is a solid point. I've had my work described as both "sparse" and "simplistic," and I've taken that as a compliment.

Details are, as Simon points out, important. But I've seen far too many authors front load details early in a story that would would be better served waiting for the right moment to reveal.

Its that thing most of have picked up on at some point, the difference between the description / info dump paragraph...

The woman walked into the office. Her name was Becky. She had red hair and wore a yellow dress. She carried an iced coffee. She was a secretary for a law firm. She was late for work.

... and incorporating the details into the story:

As Becky walked into the office, she glanced at the clock nervously. She was late as usual, but hopefully her bosses hadn't noticed. Nor notice the stain on her yellow dress from the iced coffee she'd spilled on the train ride in.

Brushing her red hair back from her face with frustration, she took a seat at her desk and answered the phone which had been ringing endlessly. "Barlow And Sons Lawfirm, how may I direct your call?"

I've been accused of not describing my characters enough, especially when I have written several stories about them. (Dorothy, Carla in my Homecoming series, Belinda, etc.)

 

[8letters]

I'm working on a story where the three main characters end up in a MFF throuple. A lot of the MFF throuple stories I read, the two women both want his big dick, and that's enough for them to live happily ever after. This is my second MFF throuple story, and like my first, the women divvy up all the domestic responsibilities, with one woman a stay-at-home mom and the other woman having a job. What other things should I put into my story to make the throuple seem more plausible?

 

[SkyBubble]

I got the idea for one of my stories while doing dishes. By the time I got to the computer, the whole plot had laid itself out for me. All I had to do was write it out.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'm working on a story where the three main characters end up in a MFF throuple. A lot of the MFF throuple stories I read, the two women both want his big dick, and that's enough for them to live happily ever after. This is my second MFF throuple story, and like my first, the women divvy up all the domestic responsibilities, with one woman a stay-at-home mom and the other woman having a job. What other things should I put into my story to make the throuple seem more plausible?

(bites tongue)

 

[MelissaBaby]

Kurt Vonnegut said there are two types of writers. He called them bashers and swoopers. I'm more of the swooper inclination.

Bashers, Vonnegut said, write a paragraph or two, then edit it until they're satisfied, then do the same with the next paragraph, and so on.

Swoopers, OTOH, try to get the whole thing down while it's flowing, then go back and make their edits.

I have a friend who has self published two mainstream novels, one of them very successful commercially. She is an excellent writer.

Her method; She writes in a thick spiral notebook. On page one she writes her opening sentence. Then, on the next line, rewrites it. Then again. As many iterations of the same sentence as she can think up. Sometimes that's two or three variations. Sometimes she fills the page.

When she can't think of any other ways to express what she wished to convey, she goes over the list, decides which she likes best, and circles it with a red pen.

Then on to the next page for the second sentence.

When she finishes, she pays a service (a lady who does medical transcriptions) to type it all into a document, then does an edit.

I have seen the manuscript of her first novel. It lines a shelf in her family room. There are more than fifty notebooks.

She is a lovely person, unfortunately slowly losing a battle with Glioblastoma. I've learned a lot about writing from her, but I could never emulate her methodology.

 

[StrentWriter]

I’ve been working on my novel Peta/Sam for over a year at this point, and had published here as a series of chapters.

Those original stories are not available now - I had a huge amount of imposter syndrome and a total breakdown in confidence around March time and asked Laurel to delete my account.

I came back after some soul searching and am trying to finish it up now.

Virtually nothing of the original stories bar the characters, some of the locations, and elements of the sex scenes are the same, and I’ve refined the novel into three acts of ten chapters each.

Aiming for 100,000 words, at 85,000 currently and trying to tidy it up by way of checking it through ChatGPT (which for grammar and really specific instructions on formatting has actually been a godsend) - I’ve realised that all I really want to do is say I wrote an erotic novel and to be satisfied that it gets finished.

It has ballooned into a project though, whereby I have a character reference document (complete with photos and pictures for reference), a document for checking progress against the timeline of events, and more besides.

So I guess my question is - have I gone overboard and is there a right way of writing a novel to completion in your view?

 

[MelissaBaby]

I’ve been working on my novel Peta/Sam for over a year at this point, and had published here as a series of chapters.

Those original stories are not available now - I had a huge amount of imposter syndrome and a total breakdown in confidence around March time and asked Laurel to delete my account.

I came back after some soul searching and am trying to finish it up now.

Virtually nothing of the original stories bar the characters, some of the locations, and elements of the sex scenes are the same, and I’ve refined the novel into three acts of ten chapters each.

Aiming for 100,000 words, at 85,000 currently and trying to tidy it up by way of checking it through ChatGPT (which for grammar and really specific instructions on formatting has actually been a godsend) - I’ve realised that all I really want to do is say I wrote an erotic novel and to be satisfied that it gets finished.

It has ballooned into a project though, whereby I have a character reference document (complete with photos and pictures for reference), a document for checking progress against the timeline of events, and more besides.

So I guess my question is - have I gone overboard and is there a right way of writing a novel to completion in your view?

You should do all the “side work” that you need to keep things organized. I have used family tree charts, chronologies, etc. to help keep track of things. If they are helpful, use them.

But I think it’s a mistake to set a word count goal. Tell the story at the length it needs to be told. You neither want to unnecessarily pad it to make the goal, nor trim essential material to keep from exceeding it.

 

[8letters]

What's a good term/description for the areola? I feel "areola" is too technical, but I don't know of anything better.

 

[StillStunned]

What's a good term/description for the areola? I feel "areola" is too technical, but I don't know of anything better.

"Northern Lights"?

No wait, I'm thinking of something else.

I mostly use "nipple", or sometimes "the sensitive/puffy/swollen skin around her nipple".

 

[TheLobster]

What's a good term/description for the areola? I feel "areola" is too technical, but I don't know of anything better.

That's a good question. I feel like using that word once is fine, especially when it's the pair of breasts whose owner is the focus of the story (or at least there is no other pair that's more prominent). It flows pretty easily, and at least to me it doesn't sound nearly as clinical as "penis" or "vagina".

The only alternatives I can think off that don't seem tacky or confusing are "halo" (as in, "tawny halos around her nipples") or, if you want to go more poetic, "glow". Everything else that's small and circular (disk, coin, puck, etc.) is also necessarily flat, which in most cases is precisely the opposite image to what you want evoke when describing breasts.

 

[Publius68]

That's a good question. I feel like using that word once is fine, especially when it's the pair of breasts whose owner is the focus of the story (or at least there is no other pair that's more prominent). It flows pretty easily, and at least to me it doesn't sound nearly as clinical as "penis" or "vagina".

The only alternatives I can think off that don't seem tacky or confusing are "halo" (as in, "tawny halos around her nipples") or, if you want to go more poetic, "glow". Everything else that's small and circular (disk, coin, puck, etc.) is also necessarily flat, which in most cases is precisely the opposite image to what you want evoke when describing breasts.

I’ve about given up trying to find an alternate word. I am experimenting with throwing in ‘halo' here and there, as well as ‘surrounding field’ or even ‘the color surrounding’, but both require the right sentence structure to not feel clunky. I like Aureoles, so I discuss them a lot. They are a tiny detail on a woman (or man) that can have such a range of characteristics that they can be a small detail of a character on which the reader can hang a vivid picture of their own.

 

[SkyBubble]

Oh Lord, now we have erotic writing Economics.

Austrian? Chicago? Keynesian?

 

[SkyBubble]

Definitely. But at least we can try to learn from him and from other great poets.

I'd planned to add a line about how poetry is probably a better source than prose is for studying how sounds enhance meaning, but it seems to have been lost in the thought process.

I'm partial to Eliot. Another good one to learn the sound of words from, the rhythm of the words.

 

[SkyBubble]

100% this. I go back and reread my stories all the time.

It always weirds me out, the actors who don't watch the movies they make, or the writers who never go back and read what they wrote. If I'm not a fan of my stuff, why should anybody else be?

Precisely.

 

[DeMont]

Personally, I'd wonder why you would want to avoid exploring those. Emotions are what make a story engaging (IMO) and sensations help the reader immerse themself, relate and suspend disbelief. It's more straightforward doing those in first person, but entirely possible in third.

From a purely practical point of view, if you do want to write same sex stories, first person is much easier. Then you write "I and she" or "I and he", rather than the potentially confusing "she and she", "he and he". Nearly all my stories are first person, partly for this reason. I use third when I want to add a little distance for stylistic reasons.

I know you didn't ask me, but I've been thinking and talking a lot about perspective lately.

And I think that's kinda what you're missing here. I think easier and more believable is the wrong question to ask. The question is, what serves your story better? And that's not just about pronouns, but perspective.

If you've a story in mind that can be told from a single perspective, I recommend using 1P. There is an immediacy and intimacy to 1P, and if you're having trouble with perspective, practicing writing in 1P is the best place to start. It forces you to think through the limitations of what your character sees, feels, knows, etc. It is easier to make this perspective believable because it is the perspective we exist within, so you have a lot of practice with it even if you've not written with it much.

If your story needs a broader perspective, you should use 3P. Sometimes that means you need to follow several different characters around in order to tell the story, and that's not something you can really do in 1P. It should not relieve you of the burden to explore emotions or sensations, at least not most of the time. It just lets you do so from more than one point of view.

Within 3P, there are 2 common subtypes. Omniscient and perspective locked. The voice of the omniscient narrator comes from outside the story. They are an observer with a god's eye view and can know anything without need for justifying why. This can be very useful, for obvious reasons. But it's also the most distant perspective. When done well, it's simply an engaging storyteller, spinning a yarn and turning it's eye to anywhere the story needs it to go.

Perspective locked 3P uses 3rd person pronouns and perspective but adopts the same constraints as 1P. The inner thoughts and feelings of the PoV character are accessible to the narrator, but only for the PoV character. This has the disadvantage of distancing the reader from the character somewhat compared to 1P, but the enormous advantage of allowing you to switch perspectives between chapters or breaks. You are locked to a character at any given time, but you're not locked to the character for the whole story, in other words.

So with that in mind, ask yourself, what does your story require? Can it be told from one person's PoV? Then definitely use 1P. Do you need somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-4 perspectives? Consider 3P locked. Do you need the narrator to be able to float through the narrative without much regard for perspective? 3P omniscient is probably your best bet. There's more to it, of course, but that's how I'd re-frame the question. With practice, you can make all of these believable. And as you practice each one, you'll get a better feel for the more nuanced pros and cons of each.

@THBGato and @filthytrancendence,
Bless ya l'il cotton socks, both of ya. Some very good points and well worth pondering before I go on.
Deepest respects, as always,
D.

 

[StrentWriter]

Third person, different perspectives, is exactly what I have been using for years but I occasionally and mistakenly stumble into omniscient without realising it in writing. Annoying when you are going back through pieces and trying to make the stories uniform to one another.

 

[NuclearFairy]

As a reader, switching between third person close and third person omniscient doesn't jar me out of the story, as long as the switch only happens at the beginning and/or the end of the chapter or story.

 

[SkyBubble]

I’d also just finished re-reading one of my favorite novels (though I’ve seen people here saying it’s overrated), and I had the crazy idea of taking my ice cream concept and turning it into a short story pastiche of the author’s canonical 1920s style.

I have a story I wrote for which I wrote a lot of background that doesn't fit in the story per se, but informs it (got to know my characters better that way, which made the story better.) I've been told it might make a good novella. I'm thinking about doing that.

 

[SkyBubble]

My stories are recordings of fantasies, and the fantasies pretty much emerge full blown. The fun in writing is in finding the words to use.

I've had stories emerge while doing the dishes.