A little 50 Shades backlash, sort of

[PennLady]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...fiction_50_shades_of_grey_and_the_future.html

 

[Stella_Omega]

A lot of quotables in there!

James’ book became big news (and a forthcoming major Hollywood film) not in spite of its ludicrous style, but because of it. “If someone writes the world's hottest novel, what is Funny or Die going to do with that?” Alptraum says. “No one is going to record Gilbert Gottfried reading it.”

If we can ridicule erotica, that means we can talk about it with our friends without seeming like pervs.

 

[D_Lynn]

Hey, they plugged Literotica.

 

[CWatson]

More publishing ghettos.

"Wow, A Song of Ice and Fire and Harry Potter are really good, considering that they're fantasy and thus can't be literature!"

"Wow, The Truman Show is really good, considering that it's science-fiction and doesn't have anything useful to say about real life or human beings!"

"Wow, Avatar: the Last Airbender and Spirited Away have multi-faceted characters, a plot with real stakes and wonderful visuals! Too bad they're just cartoons and don't deserve to be taken seriously!"




I think we need a revolution in quality. We need to stop going to see White House Down, buying Twilight, putting up with One Direction or Katy Perry. If a piece of art is being downplayed because of its genre, we need to educate the pople doing the downplaying. Conversely, if an artist sucks, we need to boycott them.

Because as long as the moneymakers can get away with shoveling us crap instead of expending real effort, they will do it. And as long as the "purists" can get away with sneering down their noses at something on the basis of genre, they will do that too. And quality will never rise to the top unless we put it there.


(EDIT: the above definitely is true of M. Night Shyamalan's travesty of a movie, The Last Airbender. Throw it in the trash and watch the originals.)

 

[voluptuary_manque]

More publishing ghettos.

"Wow, A Song of Ice and Fire and Harry Potter are really good, considering that they're fantasy and thus can't be literature!"

"Wow, The Truman Show is really good, considering that it's science-fiction and doesn't have anything useful to say about real life or human beings!"

"Wow, Avatar: the Last Airbender and Spirited Away have multi-faceted characters, a plot with real stakes and wonderful visuals! Too bad they're just cartoons and don't deserve to be taken seriously!"




I think we need a revolution in quality. We need to stop going to see White House Down, buying Twilight, putting up with One Direction or Katy Perry. If a piece of art is being downplayed because of its genre, we need to educate the pople doing the downplaying. Conversely, if an artist sucks, we need to boycott them.

Because as long as the moneymakers can get away with shoveling us crap instead of expending real effort, they will do it. And as long as the "purists" can get away with sneering down their noses at something on the basis of genre, they will do that too. And quality will never rise to the top unless we put it there.


(EDIT: the above definitely is true of M. Night Shyamalan's travesty of a movie, The Last Airbender. Throw it in the trash and watch the originals.)

And always remember that Shakespeare was considered a hack, a popular writer who didn't know how proper plays were supposed to be written during his lifetime. Of course, that didn't prevent him from acquiring a substantial fortune because of his work but then, we all know that true artistes always starve for their art.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Publishing ghettos do not exist in anyone's minds except the academics' and critics'. Everyone else buys what they love to read.

And there is still the issue of whether or not a product does what it's supposed to do-- in the case of porn, it's supposed to get the consumer horny and then orgasm. Nothing more than that.

Stop expecting cheap porn to be anything more than what it is, and you will be much less resentful of 50 shades.

 

[lovecraft68]

Publishing ghettos do not exist in anyone's minds except the academics' and critics'. Everyone else buys what they love to read.

And there is still the issue of whether or not a product does what it's supposed to do-- in the case of porn, it's supposed to get the consumer horny and then orgasm. Nothing more than that.

Stop expecting cheap porn to be anything more than what it is, and you will be much less resentful of 50 shades.

A lot of the resent towards shades has nothing to do with quality, but the fact if Twilight was never written Shades would have never been written the woman is a borderline plagiarist.

More resentment comes from the fact it is frighteningly inaccurate as to what BDSM truly is and is yet another(because it certainly is not the first) book to glorify abuse and try to make it romantic. The real life Ana would have ended up in a battered woman's shelter somewhere down the line.

In fact after the first wave of Shades success there started to be quite the "backlash" from women's groups calling it for what it was including a book burning party in the UK.

I am sick of hearing how this book is going to "mainstream" the erotica genre It is not because it itself is simply mainstream bubblegum romance that is maybe a notch or two racier than a Nora Roberts novel.

When the women who have been "enlightened" by shades venture into true erotica they are still shuddering and keeping it secret, because it is nothing like shades.

 

[lovecraft68]

More publishing ghettos.

"Wow, A Song of Ice and Fire and Harry Potter are really good, considering that they're fantasy and thus can't be literature!"

"Wow, The Truman Show is really good, considering that it's science-fiction and doesn't have anything useful to say about real life or human beings!"

"Wow, Avatar: the Last Airbender and Spirited Away have multi-faceted characters, a plot with real stakes and wonderful visuals! Too bad they're just cartoons and don't deserve to be taken seriously!"




I think we need a revolution in quality. We need to stop going to see White House Down, buying Twilight, putting up with One Direction or Katy Perry. If a piece of art is being downplayed because of its genre, we need to educate the pople doing the downplaying. Conversely, if an artist sucks, we need to boycott them.

Because as long as the moneymakers can get away with shoveling us crap instead of expending real effort, they will do it. And as long as the "purists" can get away with sneering down their noses at something on the basis of genre, they will do that too. And quality will never rise to the top unless we put it there.


(EDIT: the above definitely is true of M. Night Shyamalan's travesty of a movie, The Last Airbender. Throw it in the trash and watch the originals.)

This falls under the lemming theory combined with the power of the internet. The right few people say "wow, this song/movie/book is great then guess what? It must be and now everyone who wants to be anyone is on board.

This is a society that is lucky if it could spell the word originality (at least without using their I-pad)

And "M" has not had a good movie in a long time. Unbreakable might be because even Signs was not all that good. And please don't get me started on the Village which has to be one of the worst films of all time.

 

[chocolatecookie3]

I like the part about written erotica being accessible without the shame. The Internet makes it easy for people to explore their desires (however unrealistic) and all the better if men and women can be on equal footing!

And I know there is some quality here on Lit!

 

[Candlelight062]

"Fifty Shades of Boring"

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...fiction_50_shades_of_grey_and_the_future.html

This is what I hear from every single woman who has bought and read this book, from friends and family in The Netherlands to friends and family here in the States . . . not one has had anything postiive to say about this book.

I haven't read it so I don't have anything to say about it myself, but I've been wondering for some time now . . . when will I find a single person, whose opinion I trust and respect, who will finally tell me, "Dang! That was one HOT read!"? I'm still waiting.

Most of my family are not into BDSM so maybe that's the reason why they were so disappointed, and that's expected. But those friends and family who (much to my surprise!) are into BDSM didn't like it, either. And now they plan on making a movie out of it. Hm.

Edited to add: The good thing about "Fifty Shades of Grey" is the possibility that more and more people are becoming less squeamish about erotica. I'm not a huge porn fan, nor do I believe I write porn as opposed to explicit but romantic sex scenes, but I've noticed people have become more open (if not, tolerable) to such scenes to the point that when they read any of my stories or books, they don't look at me funny. This is something every Lit author would welcome with wide open arms, and it's more than I could have hoped for.

 

[slyc_willie]

Edited to add: The good thing about "Fifty Shades of Grey" is the possibility that more and more people are becoming less squeamish about erotica. I'm not a huge porn fan, nor do I believe I write porn as opposed to explicit but romantic sex scenes, but I've noticed people have become more open (if not, tolerable) to such scenes to the point that when they read any of my stories or books, they don't look at me funny. This is something every Lit author would welcome with wide open arms, and it's more than I could have hoped for.

I've had everyone from coworkers to former bosses to friends and teachers buy my books, and I've never felt uncomfortable discussing any of the stories with them. It's funny; they gloss over the sexual parts when they talk about it, and instead comment on the characters, the plot, my use of words, and so forth. But not many of them ever told me "hey, that blowjob scene in the elevator was really freakin' hot! I'm gonna do that with my boyfriend this weekend!"

Essentially, I feel the same about the impact of Shades. I suppose the way it's written is what people expect from explicit erotica. I can't really comment on that since I haven't read it and am just going with what I've seen of the reviews. Whether or not it's a genuine door-opener is still up for debate. But it at least shows that erotica can go mainstream.

 

[Lord_Gro]

You know, the whole 50 Shades thing reminds of nothing so much as the last erotic/BDSM nine-days wonder, _9 1/2 Weeks_, only with lots better marketing and the Internet to drive sales. It was also a book about a woman who was in what was essentially an abusive relationship, but it was marketed as socially-acceptable BDSM. And they made a movie out of it, starring Kim Basinger and (I think,) Mickey Rourke. Which promptly tanked at the box office.

One can only hope that 50 Shades follows the same pattern.

 

[slyc_willie]

You know, the whole 50 Shades thing reminds of nothing so much as the last erotic/BDSM nine-days wonder, _9 1/2 Weeks_, only with lots better marketing and the Internet to drive sales. It was also a book about a woman who was in what was essentially an abusive relationship, but it was marketed as socially-acceptable BDSM. And they made a movie out of it, starring Kim Basinger and (I think,) Mickey Rourke. Which promptly tanked at the box office.

One can only hope that 50 Shades follows the same pattern.

9 1/2 Weeks may not have had much in the way of box office sales, but it has been a cult classic ever since. For many of us who were teen boys in the eighties, the movie was tantamount to porn. Same with Rourke's later thriller, Wild Orchid, which included liberal doses of nudity and some pretty graphic sex scenes (a persistent rumor is that during the filming of the sex scenes, Mickey Rourke and his co-star actually had sex. I've never seen this confirmed nor denied, but the scenes in the film are borderline X-rated). Then there were movies like Breathless and Angel Heart (again, with Mickey Rourke), and who can forget Basic Instinct?

So maybe it's unfair to credit Shades with pushing erotica into the mainstream. In the film industry, it's always been an underground favorite.

 

[Candlelight062]

_9 1/2 Weeks_, only with lots better marketing and the Internet to drive sales. It was also a book about a woman who was in what was essentially an abusive relationship, but it was marketed as socially-acceptable BDSM. And they made a movie out of it, starring Kim Basinger and (I think,) Mickey Rourke. Which promptly tanked at the box office.

One can only hope that 50 Shades follows the same pattern.

9 1/2 Weeks tanked at the box office? I thought it was a huge hit. I didn't like it myself, though. I like Kim Basinger and Mickey Rourke, but I didn't like the movie that much.

 

[Candlelight062]

I've had everyone from coworkers to former bosses to friends and teachers buy my books, and I've never felt uncomfortable discussing any of the stories with them. It's funny; they gloss over the sexual parts when they talk about it, and instead comment on the characters, the plot, my use of words, and so forth. But not many of them ever told me "hey, that blowjob scene in the elevator was really freakin' hot! I'm gonna do that with my boyfriend this weekend!"

Essentially, I feel the same about the impact of Shades. I suppose the way it's written is what people expect from explicit erotica. I can't really comment on that since I haven't read it and am just going with what I've seen of the reviews. Whether or not it's a genuine door-opener is still up for debate. But it at least shows that erotica can go mainstream.

Oh no, they tell me that my sex scenes are pretty . . . graphic. Okay. So they do it subtly, but they do let me know they've read it. But no, I doubt they'd ever go so far as to tell me, "that scene where she licked his dick was so realistic! I felt hot and fuzzy all over!". But I do get the impression that I've affected them when they tell me that they think my scenes are "graphic" but nice.

And as for Fifty Shades being a door-opener . . . well, since my erotic scenes are probably more tame since their written in the context of romance rather than BDSM, my writing might have the effect of being more "acceptable". Which is a good thing for me.

 

[slyc_willie]

Oh no, they tell me that my sex scenes are pretty . . . graphic. Okay. So they do it subtly, but they do let me know they've read it. But no, I doubt they'd ever go so far as to tell me, "that scene where she licked his dick was so realistic! I felt hot and fuzzy all over!". But I do get the impression that I've affected them when they tell me that they think my scenes are "graphic" but nice.

And as for Fifty Shades being a door-opener . . . well, since my erotic scenes are probably more tame since their written in the context of romance rather than BDSM, my writing might have the effect of being more "acceptable". Which is a good thing for me.

See, most of my sex scenes are pretty graphic. But, I always tell anyone I know who expresses an interest in buying one of my books, "Keep in mind, they're graphic. And read the disclaimers, first." So they already have an idea that what they are getting is not something glossed over. I don't write "he entered her womanly cave like a stallion returning home to the celestial barn" or other crap. No, I like the words cock and pussy.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh no, they tell me that my sex scenes are pretty . . . graphic. Okay. So they do it subtly, but they do let me know they've read it. But no, I doubt they'd ever go so far as to tell me, "that scene where she licked his dick was so realistic! I felt hot and fuzzy all over!". But I do get the impression that I've affected them when they tell me that they think my scenes are "graphic" but nice.

And as for Fifty Shades being a door-opener . . . well, since my erotic scenes are probably more tame since their written in the context of romance rather than BDSM, my writing might have the effect of being more "acceptable". Which is a good thing for me.

Naw, the BDSM scenes in 50 shades are tame. They focus on the most pervasive of vanilla fantasy topics; he-reads-my-mind, and oh-he-loves-me.

 

[Candlelight062]

Image and Author Brand

See, most of my sex scenes are pretty graphic. But, I always tell anyone I know who expresses an interest in buying one of my books, "Keep in mind, they're graphic. And read the disclaimers, first." So they already have an idea that what they are getting is not something glossed over. I don't write "he entered her womanly cave like a stallion returning home to the celestial barn" or other crap. No, I like the words cock and pussy.

With a pen name like "Slyc_Willie" or author's name, Gabriel Daemon . . . you can get away with hardcore erotica because that's what they'll be expecting of you. But I'm "Candlelight062" here, which has a romantic connotation (by choice) and Catharina Shields as an author who also writes Young Adult PNR, so I can't go all too kinky, although some readers believe, as Candlelight062, I do (don't see it myself). But I don't get all too flowery, either. If it sounds silly in my head, I'm pretty sure it'll sound as silly in my readers' heads.

 

[Candlelight062]

If I have to believe all the hype . . .

Naw, the BDSM scenes in 50 shades are tame. They focus on the most pervasive of vanilla fantasy topics; he-reads-my-mind, and oh-he-loves-me.

. . . and I have to believe everything that's being said by radio personalities, Fifty Shades is supposed to get them all hot and bothered. I guess those readers aren't used to much.

Then again, friends and family who are into BDSM and who have read the book, are disappointed by Fifty Shades. They keep telling me they expected more out of it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

. . . and I have to believe everything that's being said by radio personalities, Fifty Shades is supposed to get them all hot and bothered. I guess those readers aren't used to much.

Then again, friends and family who are into BDSM and who have read the book, are disappointed by Fifty Shades. They keep telling me they expected more out of it.

Yeah, like some actual acknowledgement of current practices. BDSM was only shoved into that book as a substitute for vampireness, and the plot is that Miss Thing seduces him away from his Dom identity and makes him whole and healed and no longer needing that crutchy shit. That BDSM is the thing she takes him away from is only incidental-- the notion that a man might LOVE ME SO MUUUUUCH as to change for me-- big porn right there. It could have been baseball.

So yeah. BDSM not so much. Slide off your chair, maybe. Not me, but obviously it worked for a lot of women-- regardless of the accusations of hype, it still got a lot of women off.

I dunno, it's freaky. I have pretty straightforward appetites, myself-- I like my porn unadorned with plot, or anyway, that the porn BE the plot. And kinky is better.

But some years back I discovered a pair of fan fiction writers that created some of the hottest stroke material -- the kind that worked again and again-- and they had a formula-- one sex scene near the beginning, and then an entire novel's worth of UST before the lovers returned to each other's bed. Sweet, vanilla sex, too. all passionate and overblown and not much. OMG. I'd be sitting in a puddle, every time. Embarrassed to fuck that I'd fallen for the same trick again... And just waiting for the next installment!

 

[slyc_willie]

With a pen name like "Slyc_Willie" or author's name, Gabriel Daemon . . . you can get away with hardcore erotica because that's what they'll be expecting of you. But I'm "Candlelight062" here, which has a romantic connotation (by choice) and Catharina Shields as an author who also writes Young Adult PNR, so I can't go all too kinky, although some readers believe, as Candlelight062, I do (don't see it myself). But I don't get all too flowery, either. If it sounds silly in my head, I'm pretty sure it'll sound as silly in my readers' heads.

Good point, granted. I suppose there's an automatic assumption that male erotica authors are going to be more graphic in their descriptions, and female authors would be less so. But that's just the perception of a convention. Selena Kitt, I know, has challenged that in her books. It was one of the reasons she decided to start up eXcessica. Some of her more graphic works weren't deemed "appropriate" for the soft-and-sappy romance publishers. I know I was turned down for my initial venture by a different e-publishing company because my story of a young woman who becomes a prostitute didn't meet their "standards." My later works, I'm sure, would have been even less graciously received by such publishers.

Still, even given the audience limitations you seem to have, there's nothing preventing you from branching out into more graphic erotica, if you wanted to do so. But you would probably lose some of your existing fan base if you did so.

 

[lovecraft68]

Naw, the BDSM scenes in 50 shades are tame. They focus on the most pervasive of vanilla fantasy topics; he-reads-my-mind, and oh-he-loves-me.

My wife had a few friends over for dinner a couple of months ago. They start in about Shades and my wife's watching me, but I was behaving, just not adding to the conversation.

Finally they start talking about how "hardcore" it was. One mentions BDSM because it was in an article about shades.

I had enough and went and grabbed one of my print editions of Tales of The Circle. I then sat there and read them an excerpt from The initiation of Allison, the new member.

I swear one of them turned white and the others were like, "Oh, uh.... well, um...that's something."

What was funnier is the looks they gave my wife the rest of the night.

 

[lovecraft68]

With a pen name like "Slyc_Willie" or author's name, Gabriel Daemon . . . you can get away with hardcore erotica because that's what they'll be expecting of you. But I'm "Candlelight062" here, which has a romantic connotation (by choice) and Catharina Shields as an author who also writes Young Adult PNR, so I can't go all too kinky, although some readers believe, as Candlelight062, I do (don't see it myself). But I don't get all too flowery, either. If it sounds silly in my head, I'm pretty sure it'll sound as silly in my readers' heads.

I picked "Lovecraft" for a pen name not just in homage to HP, but the sexual connotation it has. But I don't think it sets up to be expected to be anything "soft"

 

[Stella_Omega]

My wife had a few friends over for dinner a couple of months ago. They start in about Shades and my wife's watching me, but I was behaving, just not adding to the conversation.

Finally they start talking about how "hardcore" it was. One mentions BDSM because it was in an article about shades.

I had enough and went and grabbed one of my print editions of Tales of The Circle. I then sat there and read them an excerpt from The initiation of Allison, the new member.

I swear one of them turned white and the others were like, "Oh, uh.... well, um...that's something."

What was funnier is the looks they gave my wife the rest of the night.

I'm sure she's forever grateful to you.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm sure she's forever grateful to you.

It didn't bother her, all but one of them know what I write they just didn't know how hardcore it was and the other is kind of snooty and the look on her face was priceless,

besides its not like I broke out the pictures of her in a dog crate(although I keep threatening to do so. She should have never allowed me to take those.)