A Line in the Sand

[A Desert Rose]

Do you need the black and white of, say a contract or at least, the stated word? Or do you meander through the relationship, flexibly, as the rules change and then re-change? Do you like the spontinaity of that? Or do you need a more regimented relationship?

Personally, I think most Dom/me's like to change the rules. It confirms their control over the sub. I think most Dom/me's like leaving their subs feeling unsettled and confused. And most subs are masochistic enough to love those feelings.

And once you give up that control to a Dom/me, do you ever get it back entirely? Even after the relationship has hit the rocks, does that Dom/me still have some measure of control over you?

I am not talking about limits or the setting of them. How important are boundaries to you and to your relationship? Do you need stated boundaries so you know where you stand and how far you can go and when enough means enough and when shut the fuck up means just that?

 

[catalina_francisco]

We talked contracts in the beginning, but never signed one and won't be now I expect. I think the rules, limits, expectations have to change along the way if the relationship is to stay alive and continue growing/evolving. Works for us and manages to keep me on my toes, though I do get stages where it just is burdensome to try and remember what is what on which day.

I am definately one who has found she would like more structure/boundaries....the more the better. Unusual, as it is the opposite of how I like to live in a vanilla world...and possibly due to that would be impossible now for me to adhere to full time in our relationship. We are flexible never the less, and I often beg for more definitive guidelines, but then that would be me ruling the way we live and that is not about to happen, so he challenges me continuously with keeping up with his rules and motivations.

I must say, this past month or two has been the most challenging time to date, and the most overwhelmingly surprising. Took awhile to adjust but I am feeling we are in for some exciting and growth encouraging times in the immediate future and it has taught me again to trust in his judgement of what is good for us and our bond, no matter how out of orbit it at first appears to me.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

Thank you Catalina. You understood my post. I was afraid that no one would. And I agree with you.

What I was really getting at was what you mentioned about boundaries and structure. Like you, I need a more structured and regimented relationship. (Maybe that explains why I keep finding myself attracted to servicemen... and I thought it was all about the uniform... LOL.) That is one of the reasons the last one failed for me. Meandering along, makes me feel very insecure and makes me question myself constantly. And although He was in the Air Force, He was a great one to meander along.

I was talking to my dearest friend yesterday and He mentioned that He felt he still had a measure of power over a previous sub. It really made me stop and think. Last fall, the relationship I had, ended. Looking back on that and how I feel now, I think He still has some measure of control over me, too. Even though we no longer have any contact to speak of, I find myself behaving with any dominant male in much the way He would have expected me behave with him. Maybe it's a conditioned thing. I also find that I view my behavior through His lens, sometimes.

I know that if I were to talk to Him today, and even though there is no longer a D/s relationship between us, I would immediately revert to the submissive stance. Partly that is because I am by nature, submissive with dominant men, partly it is due to the respect I still have for Him on many levels, partly it's because of what I 'learned' from Him.

I guess that just like any relationship, friendship or love, we all take away parts of that and it makes us the people we are.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Have to agree with you, we are made up of experiences we share with other people, both good and bad, they all have their purpose in continuing our journey. I made a point of not committing to anyone in anything but play until I found the one I felt was for me, so I am a little unqualified to comment on the hold issue. I imagine as long as there are feelings still in the submissive for that Dominant, there is the propensity for some hold to remain and be easily resurrected under the right circumstances. The thought also crossed my mind as to whether it was in part a need for expressing our submissive selves which makes that feeling linger? If we have an outlet as in a new D/s relationship, would we still be susceptible to that feeling of connection with a previous D in our lives, or at least to the same level?

Catalina

 

[MissTaken]

Thinking.....

Great thread topic, I will come back to it when I have formulated my thoughts in a bit more cohesive manner.

I can say, I rather enjoy flexibility in all things.
It is just how I am, I suppose.


I also believe that relationships are fluid and so, many times, the expectations, boundaries and limits need to be fluid as well. However, change must always occur with careful thought and consideration, otherwise, the results can be destructive.


Still thinking on the topics at hand, though...............

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Thinking.....

Great thread topic, I will come back to it when I have formulated my thoughts in a bit more cohesive manner.

Still formulating?

I also believe that relationships are fluid and so, many times, the expectations, boundaries and limits need to be fluid as well. However, change must always occur with careful thought and consideration, otherwise, the results can be destructive.

Agreed ... on all accounts.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Thinking.....

Great thread topic, I will come back to it when I have formulated my thoughts in a bit more cohesive manner.

I can say, I rather enjoy flexibility in all things.
It is just how I am, I suppose.


I also believe that relationships are fluid and so, many times, the expectations, boundaries and limits need to be fluid as well. However, change must always occur with careful thought and consideration, otherwise, the results can be destructive.


Still thinking on the topics at hand, though...............

Yes and the key words are "careful thought and consideration" as well as negotiation.

I have no problem with flexibility in a relationship. It has to be flexiable to grow. Otherwise it becomes stagnant and we all know the results of that.

My original thoughts were about changing the rules without notifying the sub. Or expecting behavior that was not originally discussed. Or expecting the sub to know what the Dom wants, when she is not Cleo-the-phone-psychic. It's almost like a pop quiz for the sub. Or for this sub, at least.

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

~stalk~

 

[kitty4ever]

In any relationship, D/s and otherwise, I want to know where I stand. I'm a rather honest, forthright person, and I expect the same. If you're my friend and have an issue, tell me, get it out in the open, but don't 'change' things without telling me. If you're my Dom, don't expect me to read your mind. It's His responsibility to assist in my training of how to please Him, not to expect me to automatically know.

The tentative one that I was in ended, by both of our choice, and it hurt, but at least he was honest with me that he would never chose me over his son, and I respect that, and would have never asked him to. I wouldn't agree to being manipulated by a 7 yr old threatening to leave and live with his mother full time if his Daddy was with someone, saying he didn't want another Mommy, but it's not my choice to make. It's his, but he was honest with me, and I respect and expect that. I can't hold any bad feelings towards him for that.

That's the type of honest communication that I expect from people. Not games, not rule changes, but honesty. No relationship stays the same, but I expect open exchange, for, I am a woman first, a partner second, and a sub in the bedroom. <smiles>

 

[FungiUg]

Hmmm. Since the longest I've had any kind of D/s relationship is only a couple of months, I'm not sure I'm particularly qualified to comment. However, I will throw in my 2c worth anyway.

Firstly, I don't believe that relationships of any type are static. Nailing them down in the form of a contract to me is anathema to the whole point of a relationship - ongoing discovery and growth and communicaiton.

Secondly, people change. So what would go in a contract now might be inappropriate in a month or two. Contracts need to be reviewed. So I kind of wonder about the point of a contract in the first place?

Here's what I do insist upon: the ability for anyone involved to say "no" or "stop". It just doesn't work for me unless I know it's fully consensual and WANTED by all parties. I also insist on communication -- I'm not a "just do it" type. I like to talk about things beforehand and afterwards to see what might be fun to try, what worked and what didn't.

I will give a submissive some "rules" and "rituals", yes. They can be changed as I see fit to adapt them to what is working and what isn't. I generally don't change the "rules" arbitrarily though; normally it's in consultation.

I hate "game playing" with emotions -- I prefer everyone knows where they stand (or sit, or kneel, or bend over). So that requires a certain amount of honesty and determination. Game playing is a hard limit for me... in fact, I put someone on ignore on MSN only a couple of weeks ago for precisely that reason.

With the several month relationship that my lover and I had with a submissive, it was DAMNED hard to give back that power. I still suspect that if I wished, I could command her. But that's just NOT fair to her, and I hate fucking over someone's life, particularly when it's someone I care about. So by an effort of will, I've made sure that I do NOT exercise any control over her, now that we have parted.

With boundaries -- in all honesty, I don't think they're purely a BDSM phenomina. But we like to PUSH boundaries, so they escalate in importance to us. My personal belief is that boundaries are there to be respected... and explored. And they do change. So again we come back to ongoing communication. I would be shit scared of playing with someone with "no" boundaries -- it's like saying "I have no ethical or moral restraints." So boundaries ARE important to me, and I always discuss them.

There ya go...

 

[Quint]

We're in the process of changing where we are in relation to each other. I leaped into this relationship to be his submissive which unfortunately in my mind meant giving up my right to expect that my desires would be met before I even acknowledged what those desires were. And he accepted it because he thought it was what I wanted. Two years and some unsatisfaction later, we're starting back at the beginning, by mutual choice. I'll learn to be me first, this time. Learning to think "What do I want?" before "What ought I to do/want/say?"

 

[A Desert Rose]

Hmmm. Since the longest I've had any kind of D/s relationship is only a couple of months, I'm not sure I'm particularly qualified to comment. However, I will throw in my 2c worth anyway.

Firstly, I don't believe that relationships of any type are static. Nailing them down in the form of a contract to me is anathema to the whole point of a relationship - ongoing discovery and growth and communicaiton.

I agree with you and said as much in my last post. A relationship of any kind that does not change and grow becomes stagnant and the partners become bored.

Secondly, people change. So what would go in a contract now might be inappropriate in a month or two. Contracts need to be reviewed. So I kind of wonder about the point of a contract in the first place?

Contract was a poor choice of words for me to use. I personally have grown to not like them.

Here's what I do insist upon: the ability for anyone involved to say "no" or "stop". It just doesn't work for me unless I know it's fully consensual and WANTED by all parties. I also insist on communication -- I'm not a "just do it" type. I like to talk about things beforehand and afterwards to see what might be fun to try, what worked and what didn't.

I will give a submissive some "rules" and "rituals", yes. They can be changed as I see fit to adapt them to what is working and what isn't. I generally don't change the "rules" arbitrarily though; normally it's in consultation.

This is more to the point I was making. Changing things or expecting things from a sub without her truly understanding. And a sub can be just as guilty of that as a Dom. Misplaced expectations can be the death of any relationship.

I hate "game playing" with emotions -- I prefer everyone knows where they stand (or sit, or kneel, or bend over). So that requires a certain amount of honesty and determination. Game playing is a hard limit for me... in fact, I put someone on ignore
on MSN only a couple of weeks ago for precisely that reason.

I couldn't agree with you more here. Game playing is dishonest.

With the several month relationship that my lover and I had with a submissive, it was DAMNED hard to give back that power. I still suspect that if I wished, I could command her. But that's just NOT fair to her, and I hate fucking over someone's life, particularly when it's someone I care about. So by an effort of will, I've made sure that I do NOT exercise any control over her, now that we have parted.

With boundaries -- in all honesty, I don't think they're purely a BDSM phenomina. But we like to PUSH boundaries, so they escalate in importance to us. My personal belief is that boundaries are there to be respected... and explored. And they do change. So again we come back to ongoing communication. I would be shit scared of playing with someone with "no" boundaries -- it's like saying "I have no ethical or moral restraints." So boundaries ARE important to me, and I always discuss them.

There ya go...

Thank you, Fungi. I follow all your posts and love to see you post in mine.

 

[A Desert Rose]

...Two years and some unsatisfaction later, we're starting back at the beginning, by mutual choice. I'll learn to be me first, this time. Learning to think "What do I want?" before "What ought I to do/want/say?"

What a great evolution your relationship is going through. A lot of growing and expansion of you both.

Congratulations, Quint.

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

Well, I was going to post what I thought about this, but Fungi pretty much covered it for me. That's a good thing, since I haven't had much coffee yet.

 

[esclave_PP]

Originally posted by A Desert Rose
Do you need the black and white of, say a contract or at least, the stated word? Or do you meander through the relationship, flexibly, as the rules change and then re-change? Do you like the spontinaity of that? Or do you need a more regimented relationship?

I personally am not a huge fan of contracts. If it makes the Dom/Master/Mistress/Domme feel better and have more control, then so be it. I would rather have the flexibility, especially in a relationship where there are switches. I always like spontinaity -- although that doesn't work for everyone as you've pointed out.

And once you give up that control to a Dom/me, do you ever get it back entirely? Even after the relationship has hit the rocks, does that Dom/me still have some measure of control over you?

To answer this, yes and no. It really depends on the sort of relationship you have in the first place. If it is one where the D/M are serious control freaks, I doubt you'd see any semblance of control. However, if they are more human and understand human relationships, you probably would get some moticum of control. I have experienced that lingering control. Even with my recent Ex that is true. He can call or write and zoom, I am write back to where I was. Not really sure why that happens though. Guess I still have powerful feelings for the guy.

I am not talking about limits or the setting of them. How important are boundaries to you and to your relationship? Do you need stated boundaries so you know where you stand and how far you can go and when enough means enough and when shut the fuck up means just that?

Boundaries are good. They should be definined early on that way both parties understand them and try to stay within them or push them on occasion. Again, really depends on the relationship and who the individuals are. There are going to be people who are less learned in relationships than others -- so if the pairing is good, boundaries shouldn't be an issue. I could see having stricter boundaries for a new relationship and then easing up a bit after the "grace" period...

 

[enigma nocturne]

I do not think I need a contract, but I do need some guidlines to go by. I hate "flying blind". But as long as changes are discussed, I have no problems witht hem being fluid and adjustable.

And before I get all flamed and stuff; please note I said discussed, not negotiated. It is not fair to change the rules and expect them to psychically figure them out; this is setting them up for failure and destroys the trust needed for a D/s relationship.

 

[A Desert Rose]

"Before I get flamed..."

"I know I'll be shunned..."

Why do I keep seeing these kinds of comments? Who flames or shuns anyone here for having their own viewpoint?

Maybe I'm just silly but I don't seem to see what everyone else is seeing. ;-) (I so love illiteration.)

 

[esclave_PP]

Originally posted by A Desert Rose
"Before I get flamed..."

"I know I'll be shunned..."

Why do I keep seeing these kinds of comments? Who flames or shuns anyone here for having their own viewpoint?

Maybe I'm just silly but I don't seem to see what everyone else is seeing. ;-) (I so love illiteration.)

Illiteration is icy and ingenious. It rocks like rippling rolling waves on the river....

 

[lorddragonwolf]

heres the best contract:




we agree to explore each others desires

i dont use contracts and why should you when as stated above the relationship will change and grow. however safe words or hard limits should be dicussed and outlined in the begining. You might even find yourself wanting to try your hard limits later in the relationship and they canthen be dicussed at that time.

 

[tythisredheadup]

Personally, I think most Dom/me's like to change the rules. It confirms their control over the sub. I think most Dom/me's like leaving their subs feeling unsettled and confused. And most subs are masochistic enough to love those feelings.

As a sub, that shit pisses me off...

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: A Line in the Sand

As a sub, that shit pisses me off...

Well, I can understand how you feel. It does me too, sometimes. And other times it can be challenging for me, as a sub.

Some Dom's like to change the rules without notice just to keep their sub on her toes and to remind Himself that He is in charge.

;-D

 

[A Desert Rose]

Illiteration is icy and ingenious. It rocks like rippling rolling waves on the river....

You're so cute! ;-D

 

[MissTaken]

Re: Re: Thinking.....

My original thoughts were about changing the rules without notifying the sub. Or expecting behavior that was not originally discussed. Or expecting the sub to know what the Dom wants, when she is not Cleo-the-phone-psychic. It's almost like a pop quiz for the sub. Or for this sub, at least.

I experienced just that once with my training Dominant. He got me in scene and expected me to recite some things that I had never seen or heard before. It was an excuse for him to punish me. We never scened again after that, with me subbing, anyway.

I don't agree with that thinking. Submission is too close and too personal to be played with. Now, if I want to play with the rules I might make them difficult to follow. For example, I told scooter to paint my toe nails and that he would be struck with the cane if he makes an mistake. Of course, I wiggled my toes.

However, that was a playful time for us. I wouldn't do that when we were deep in our space.

No, in any relationship, I believe that expectations need to be clear and that changes need to be discussed. Surprises are what frustrate people and piss them off. I wouldn't do it to an employee or a submissive!

Thank you for clarifying your POV, ADR.

 

[fallon2]

Wowweee

I have a lot to say especially after discussing some things with a friend earlier tonight. I will be coming back with an answer.


p.s. ADR--- don't forget we still have to have that discussion from last week to finish!

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Wowweee

I have a lot to say especially after discussing some things with a friend earlier tonight. I will be coming back with an answer.


p.s. ADR--- don't forget we still have to have that discussion from last week to finish!

Of course... whenever you like.