A. Lincoln.

[BlackSnake]

New Jersey. Four Iowa class batleships were built. And through their service life they have, combined, seen service in four major conflicts, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf. Clinton decommissione dthem a final time. Missouri is now a national monument at Pearl Harbor.

IIRC New Jersey, Iowa and Wisconsin are mothballed again. Not sure. I do hope they haven't been sent to the breaker's yard. i don't think there has ever been a more beautiful or elegant class of warships ever desinged.

They could turn out like the USS Alabama, tourtist trek

 

[Guest]

Well now I feel stupid...thanks alot.......*running away sobbing*..wahhhhhhhhh

And you'd think after all that time you've spent with sailors, you'd know more.

 

[BlackSnake]

And you'd think after all that time you've spent with sailors, you'd know more.

Ding I was in the wrong service...

 

[ABSTRUSE]

And you'd think after all that time you've spent with sailors, you'd know more.

I only looked at their tattoos.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I'll buy that some of the books were written by the losers, but I think the primary story has been set by writers from the North.

It wasn't until I moved to a Southern state after a Northern upbringing that I started to hear the other side.

For example, I heard one speaker, an articulate apparently educated re-creator speak claim it was Northern historians who established the idea after the war, that the war was about ending slavery. To the South, he claimed, the conflict was about the right to secede from the Union if they so chose.

He contended that Robert E. Lee was never prosecuted for treason, as was apparently considered, by the North because the powers to be were not sure that Virginia could convict or the US Supreme Court would uphold the conviction if it occured.

Turns out, the US Constitition does not say if a state can or cannot secede from the Union. It does not address the matter.

Therefore if the matter made it to court, the court would have to look at prior law. The Articles of Confederation specifically said States could secede.

Further, the US Constitution was a result of a gathering charged with updating the Articles of Confederation. Attendees took it upon themselves to throw it out and come up with the US Constitution.

Thus, a court case might not only decide that secession was legal, but that forcing the seceding states back into the union by force was illegal, and indeed the entire US Constitiution was not valid!

These were the ideas I heard one afternoon, and I keep meaning to read up on.

Read the contemproray accounts Ted. They are almost all by southerners. AS are most of the good biographies. No doubt people with a northern slant have produced a lot of books in recent times, but for a long while, the books came from the south.

the idea that the war was about slavery is a contrivance. It was, as most wars, a war over economics. Since slavery was the basis of the south's economy, it can be infered that the war was about slavery.

In reality, the north and south had grown apart on a wide front, from economics to societal norms. Northerners needed the south, for a source of raw materials and agriculteral products and as a market for their manufactured goods. The south didn't need the north, they got the majority of their manufactured goods from England could feed themselves and still turned a tidy profit on cotton. Today, we see that as just a regional difference in one large nation, at the time, it was seen as a fundamental divergence that should rightly make for two nations. At least that is how many southerners saw it.

neithr the wildly pro south contemporary accounts, nor the more modern pro north accounts really adress the many issues. You really need to read both with a grain of salt and then synthesise what you get to get an accurate idea of all that was involved. Saying it ws or was not about slavery is a drastic oversimplification of something that was infinetly complex.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Well now I feel stupid...thanks alot.......*running away sobbing*..wahhhhhhhhh

Pfffft.

It's not exactly a well knwn fact abs. In fact, a lot of what I know about ships and mil history is pretty darn esoteric.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

They could turn out like the USS Alabama, tourtist trek

I hope so. They have a lot of history to tell, but a lot of people who are anti-war try to make them into political footballs.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Pfffft.

It's not exactly a well knwn fact abs. In fact, a lot of what I know about ships and mil history is pretty darn esoteric.

I still want to roll around with your brain in the throes of passion until I pass out.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I still want to roll around with your brain in the throes of passion until I pass out.

My brain is a scary place

 

[ABSTRUSE]

My brain is a scary place

I fear nothing.

 

[TheEarl]

I was reading an interesting article stating that one of the motivations behind the Emancipation Proclamation was the fear that Britain would recognise the Confederate States as a nation. If they had, then the United States would've been forced to peace talks as Britain would've stopped trade with a 'warmongering' nation and left the North out in the cold.

Announcing that they would abolish slavery instantly made it impossible for Britain to side with the South. We'd taken the moral high ground over slavery and the political opinion in Britain, at the time, was that it was a disgusting process. Any suggestion of siding against a power who'd publically stated to do what we'd been lobbying for was not politically expedient. Britain stayed out, France stayed out and the North regrouped.

Interesting angle I thought.

The Earl

 

[BlackSnake]

I was reading an interesting article stating that one of the motivations behind the Emancipation Proclamation was the fear that Britain would recognise the Confederate States as a nation. If they had, then the United States would've been forced to peace talks as Britain would've stopped trade with a 'warmongering' nation and left the North out in the cold.

Announcing that they would abolish slavery instantly made it impossible for Britain to side with the South. We'd taken the moral high ground over slavery and the political opinion in Britain, at the time, was that it was a disgusting process. Any suggestion of siding against a power who'd publically stated to do what we'd been lobbying for was not politically expedient. Britain stayed out, France stayed out and the North regrouped.

Interesting angle I thought.

The Earl

Very interesting

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I was reading an interesting article stating that one of the motivations behind the Emancipation Proclamation was the fear that Britain would recognise the Confederate States as a nation. If they had, then the United States would've been forced to peace talks as Britain would've stopped trade with a 'warmongering' nation and left the North out in the cold.

Announcing that they would abolish slavery instantly made it impossible for Britain to side with the South. We'd taken the moral high ground over slavery and the political opinion in Britain, at the time, was that it was a disgusting process. Any suggestion of siding against a power who'd publically stated to do what we'd been lobbying for was not politically expedient. Britain stayed out, France stayed out and the North regrouped.

Interesting angle I thought.

The Earl

That's a vailid POV. You will also notice the Procilimation is issued after the battle of Antitam. Abe had been waiting for a victory and while this battle was a tactical vicotry for the south, it could be argued it was a Northern victory as the south was invadeing and was forced to retire.

The north's real fear as far as England was concerned was the fact that the North had a blockade in placve around the south. Had the IK officially recognized the south, they would have been a real threat to break the bolckade. The north had the naval means to enforce a blockade against the south, but she was SOL if she tried to enforce it on British ships. The royal navy was many times stronger.

 

[R. Richard]

the idea that the war was about slavery is a contrivance. It was, as most wars, a war over economics. Since slavery was the basis of the south's economy, it can be infered that the war was about slavery.

Perhaps I can simplify it a bit. I lived in the South for a time. I was looking to buy a house. One of the houses I looked at had a genuine pre-Civil War slave sale contract. A prime age field hand was worth $750.00. In those days, that was at least the yearly gross earnings of a skilled worker.

What the North wanted to do was to take fortunes from the Southern planters, with no compensation. That is the financial reality of the Civil War.

I do not defend slavery. However, those interested might read the fate of the freed Negro slaves. Any number of illiterate people, unskilled except as agricultural workers were thrown out of the only life they had ever known. Since most of the Southern plantations were ruined by the war, there was little they could do to earn a living. The anti-slavery people were suddenly no longer interested and left the newly feed slaves to their own devices.

 

[cantdog]

Would anyone stand against human slavery today, or would you be resigned that its not your problem?

I do.

Defenders of the institution here didn't generally shrug it off as someone else's problem, you know. They had dogmatic churchly reasons for it. Churches led the opposition to abolitionism.

 

[oggbashan]

Nobody has battleships anymore. The last, the Missouri, was decomissioned during Clinton's administration.

That depends on your definition of 'battleship'.

HMS Victory, a line of battle ship, hence the term 'battleship', Nelson's flagship at the Battle of Trafalgar, is still in commission.

The USS Constitution, which might or might not be termed a line of battle ship, is also still a commissioned unit of the US Navy.

Og

 

[oggbashan]

Back to Abe

I used to have a book of condolence for Abraham Lincoln.

It was published by the US government and included all the expressions of regret that had been sent to the Government and to US's embassies and consulates throughout the world. There were thousands of letters in the book.

The US sent copies of the book to all the major communities that had sent condolences. Each copy was signed by William Seward, who was also a target for assassination on that day.

Seward is better known for buying Alaska from the Russians.

The number and diversity of condolences was amazing. What was not surprising was that there were very few from what had been the Confederate States, nor from Native Americans.

However the book told more about 19th century expressions of condolence than about Abe Lincoln.

I sold the book to a US citizen from Boston. He told me later that he had to pay more in excess baggage for the weight of the book than the amount he had paid me.

Og

This book

 

[MichelleLovesTo]

He authorized the hanging of 39 Sioux men who were hung simply because they were Sioux, not because they'd been proven guilty. Largest mass hanging in our history.

I don't respect the man.

I can't argue with that at all, and can't blame you for your lack of respect.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

That depends on your definition of 'battleship'.

HMS Victory, a line of battle ship, hence the term 'battleship', Nelson's flagship at the Battle of Trafalgar, is still in commission.

The USS Constitution, which might or might not be termed a line of battle ship, is also still a commissioned unit of the US Navy.

Og

I did forget Victory. Mea Cupla

Consitition is a frigate. Granted she is a ponderously over gunned frigate, but was classed a frigate nonetheless.

She defeated some brithish frigates, and the Brits at one time ordered frigate captains not to engage her, because it wasn't fair to call it an even battle between frigates. I sometimes wonder if the HMS hood.Kriegsmarine Deutchland class ships weren't inspired by the constition and her sister ships. they had frigate speed, but were significantly over armed, much like the battle cruiser and pocket battleships carried cruiser armor, but battleship guns.

 

[TheEarl]

That's a vailid POV. You will also notice the Procilimation is issued after the battle of Antitam. Abe had been waiting for a victory and while this battle was a tactical vicotry for the south, it could be argued it was a Northern victory as the south was invadeing and was forced to retire.

The north's real fear as far as England was concerned was the fact that the North had a blockade in placve around the south. Had the IK officially recognized the south, they would have been a real threat to break the bolckade. The north had the naval means to enforce a blockade against the south, but she was SOL if she tried to enforce it on British ships. The royal navy was many times stronger.

I had heard about the battle of Antitam; I've got a couple of interesting books about counterfactual history and one of the essays is "What would've happened if Lincoln hadn't spun Antitam as a victory and thus hadn't issued the proclamation?"

I didn't know about the blockade, although I find it interesting that the UK didn't attempt to run it anyway. The South was a major source of raw materials for the world at large at the time, if I'm not mistaken and I would've thought British foreign policy of the time would lead them to be very bullish about any attempt to cut them off from that source.

The Earl

 

[R. Richard]

The USS Constitution, which might or might not be termed a line of battle ship, is also still a commissioned unit of the US Navy.

Og

The USS Constitution [Old Ironsides], is actually a frigate. It is still commissioned, but not an active duty ship.

The reason I know the specifics is that I served on the last active duty wooden ship in the Navy. [No, I was not in the Navy.]

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Hey Cloudy, Andrew Jackson was a bit of a dick wasn't he?

 

[cloudy]

Hey Cloudy, Andrew Jackson was a bit of a dick wasn't he?

yeah, he had to have a tiny one, for sure.

Asshole of the worst kind. Unfortunately, I can't say much good about ANY of the politicians of that time.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

yeah, he had to have a tiny one, for sure.

Asshole of the worst kind. Unfortunately, I can't say much good about ANY of the politicians of that time.

He was just nuts!!! I watched the show on the presidents last night, he stuck out in my mind the most. Guess he didn't care for the natives, huh?

 

[cloudy]

He was just nuts!!! I watched the show on the presidents last night, he stuck out in my mind the most. Guess he didn't care for the natives, huh?

He was the worst about violating treaties HE'D made....just decide he didn't want to honor it, and that was that.

One of the worst things he did was when the Surpreme Court ruled FOR the Cherokee, he decided to ignore their decision, and told the court "YOU enforce it."

He opened up the Black Hills to miners, after promising military help to keep them out.

The list is long. I'd spit on his grave if I got the chance.