1st person

[TheEarl]

This is worth discussing: when you're writing in first person, do you ever give any thought to making your narrator likeable or appealing?

This is a problem for me when reading first person: very often I will just not like the narrator, and when that happens, the story just totally turns me off. In this story, I didn't like the way the narrator talked about "banging [his wife's] pussy" or referred to "sex and all that perverted shit", even though his wife talks about "perverted shit" as well.

I've always been turned off by narrators filling me in on their 10" cocks & all that. When I write in first person, I usually try to make my narrator a little more charming or self-deprecatory than I would have him be in third person, just so it doesn't sound like locker room bragging.

---dr.M.

Have just nicked this from another thread. I wanted to reply, but didn't want to go off topic. When a story's in first person, I actually barely notice the narrator (unless they're really, really annoying). When I write first person, the character tends to be a bit more me than if I write in 3rd person. 1st is a little more personal than 3rd for me.

Any thoughts?

The Earl

 

[Whispersecret]

Earl, you and I had the same reaction. Glad to see this as a separate thread.

I've written three pieces in first person. One was an exercise for a writing class, so I won't bother going into that. One was for the Memoirs of a Lady chain story in which the character Erica had been established by the previous chapter. It was my job to maintain the character. I DID want her to be likable, but I also had to keep her aloof and slightly condescending. I think that readers, when reading first person, need/want to identify with the narrator in some way.

My other first person piece was humorous, and I tried to make the heroine likable, because I wanted the reader to care about her and what happened to her. Her ex-husband was getting married and she was experiencing a self-esteem crisis. I wanted the reader to be rooting for her to find some happiness by the end of the story.

Now, as to the description. I, too, really hate it when the first person narrator describes themselves in glowing terms. As in, "I took off my bra to expose my gorgeous breasts." Or, "The men looked at me as I entered the room, captivated by my perfect body." Puh-lease. Back click time, in a big way. I can't read story that comes off as a ME-Fest.

 

[TheEarl]

I can't read story that comes off as a ME-Fest.

Lol, just had an idea for a 1st person story involving Robbie "Ego-monster" Williams as the main character. Doubt I'll actually do it, but it brought a smile to my face.

The Earl

 

[BigTexan]

This thread made me remember a story I read a while back by a guy called Ray Dario.

It's one of those stories where the author certainly WAS NOT trying to make the narrator more charming

Here is the link

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=17153

My point is. I found this to be an excellent story, but I can see where a lot of people wouldn't like it.

And Ray, if you're reading this, I hope you don't mind me posting the link.

BigTexan

 

[KillerMuffin]

First person is one of those interesting POVs. Like there's a whole lot to choose from, but anyway.

It's easy to write in because it's very easy to write an "autobiographical" story. Side note: most writing classes will start with that "What I did this summer...." sort of piece so we can all burn out the autobiography and settle into real writing. There isn't much stretch to turn "I" into a believable character because "I" really exists. Most porno is about sharing someone's own fantasy anyway.

I think it's more difficult to write well in than third person and a ton easier to write well in than second person.

Writing a first person story where the "I" character is different from the self is hard. Autobiographies are great in sharing porno fantasy, but most autobiographical writing starts to blend together after a while. I got burnt out on Penthouse Forum a long time ago. It's just not easy to make "I" be someone else because we're so used to referring to ourselves as I.

The second biggest problem is secondary character development. While it's not hard to get rounded characters in first person, it's hard to make them rounded enough that the reader forms an opinion on the character separate from the narrator. This isn't always necessary, of course, but it's a neat trick if you can do it.

I have no problems with first person. I've only got one set of "autobiographical" fantasy penthouse forum style stories up. I'm embarrassed by them, but some people like 'em.

Basically, when I write first person, I usually make the protagonist someone people will have sympathy for. I have written a protag that was evil, but those stories just don't fly well for me. At least not yet. I think I need some more writing practice and maturity. The protag is not me, even if it's "I". I don't make them necessarily someone likable or hated, but it sometimes works out that way. I just try to create a sympathetic character--which means that they audience feels sympathy for. Think Hannibal Lecter in Hannibal when you think sympathy for.

 

[ronde]

I like first person POV for some story lines and I do try to develop a likable character. I hope I accomplish this with the character's dialogue, thoughts, and impressions of people and happenings rather than an overt self-description.

First person stories should read like a movie seen through the eyes of the main character. There is ample opportunity to define personality and presence without putting the character into "I am" mode. If I want an actual description, another character can do that in dialogue, and the reader will gain this perception without the sense of bragging that can be annoying.

Self-description is annoying, but I think that's because the character always seems arrogant. That's not necessarily bad, because that may be what the author intended. I think The Earl's story about an ego monster could be done effectively in first person. The reader would probably hate the character, ay least at first, but if he changes during the story, it would work. Perhaps some cute little thing teaches him she's really the center of his universe, and he has to admit it to the reader? Maybe he loses his girl because of his ego, and has to come to grips with his arrogance?

 

[Guest]

Could topic, Earl...

Of my three stories submitted, two were in 1st-person (one lesbian and one romance/straight guy/girl); the third story was 3rd person (group sex).

For me, and I agree with Muffie here, to write a 1st-person story about someone else is hard; there wasn't a shred of "me" in either of those stories to borrow from for autobiographical material. Nevertheless, I enjoyed writing those two stories the most since the initial anonymity of the characters allowed me immense freedom to develop their personalities much different from my own. That unrestrained and untethered flexibility from one's own mind and persona, I think, fosters a playdough-mold creative environment to shape the characters and storyline into anything you like (or what you hope your readers like). Ah, to be a kid in an adult body.

I agree with Ronde's comments regarding the interest to develop new people to mind-probe and learn about through expressed dialog and described actions. I think we all see some merit to write about likable people to entertain and engage a reader, but we also owe it to our readers and ourselves to create characters that are interesting as well. The trick, after all, is to grab and hold the reader's attention without the story's "first person" (protag or antag) becoming a crashing bore or a self-centered ass.

 

[TheEarl]

I've written 1 story as TheEarl and one under another name where the 1st person was a woman, which was quite a challenge. First person is so much easier when you're doing the autobiographical thing that KM was talking about. When you're writing from the POV of the opposite sex, then you have to describe things that you're unlikely to feel without a sex change op.

Quite flattered that someone sending me feedback on one of those stories actually thought I was a woman. I have been described (by a friend) as having a very female mind anyway. Does anyone else like writing from the opposite POV?

The Earl

 

[tenyari]

For me it's not an issue of liking the protagonist or narrator, but of identifying with them.

My stories never have locker room bragging, that just reads poor to me. But I often have troubled people as my protagonist. I don't want you to fully cheer them on, but I do want you to understand them and wish to get to know them.

I'm in the process of putting a first person story together right now, and it's hard. I think I much prefer third person.

In the current story my character is a bit of a hoodlum, with something of an attitude. The world filtered through her is not always rosy, and she's not always nice. But i I pull it off readers will not only see it her way, but see why it's her way and sympathize with the issues she faces.

This story is part of a larger series started by others, and first person is a tradition for it, otherwise I would have avoided that point of view and stuck with third where I can switch out character focus and get inside different people's heads as it suits my needs.

 

[Alex De Kok]

Writing in opposite gender POV

TheEarl asked

Does anyone else like writing from the opposite POV?

I'm not sure what it says about me, but of the eighteen pieces submitted by me, eleven are first person female and one of my third-person pieces has a female protagonist. Slightly misleading, as five of the pieces are essentially one story and three another, and there are two versions of another story.

I have another fourteen pieces under my alter-ego's name, only one of which has a female (third-person) protagonist.

I like women. I've been happily married to the same one for over thirty years and some of my best friends are women. I enjoy the challenge of writing first-person female and if any of the female readers care to comment on how successful I am I'd be glad to see it.

Alex

 

[Pookie]

The protagonist in a first person story has got to be realistic for it to work with the reader. The protagonist should be someone a reader feels comfortable with. He/she needs to have human strengths and faults like we all do.

I try to look at it this way, I want the protagonist to be someone I can relate to in some way, to be someone I would feel comfortable in the same room with for quite a while. If the reader can't view the protagonist as a "friend" with human strengths and weaknesses just like their own, it will be difficult to hook the reader into the story for very long.

The beginning of a first person story is so critical. You can't slam the reader with identifying information, but you also have to give the protagonist some "shape" as well. It's like meeting a new friend, getting acquainted, and learning who they are. It doesn't happen all at once. Just as you learn more about a new friend over time, so it should be with a protagonist in a first person story.

 

[Diane Marie]

I would think, the choice of whether the main character of a first person story is likable, depends more on the intend of the story. If, for example, my main character is a pimp, I’m not going to want you to like him. I don’t believe, him not being likable is going to be the deciding factor as to a person reading or liking that story. Now he wouldn’t be without some redeeming qualities, no person is. Maybe his would be an overwhelming generosity to children or the elderly. I think what is important is that he’s interesting, and that he has an interesting or even an amazing story to tell. Perhaps, you as the writer may have trouble making him interesting, being you don’t like him, but that is only a failure in the writer, not the concept.

I do generally agree that a me-fest first person character has a tendency to put off the reader. That said, I would make my pimp just that, very self important, very self centered. How else could he be, he’s a user, a user is generally very self important. I don’t think I’m going to show his self importance, by saying, "I took out my glorious ten inch cock, which no woman could ever resist." Personal comment here, if some guy takes out his ten inch cock, I’m finding a hiding place. Knock, Knock, guys, cut a ruler off at ten inches, hold it to your pelvic bone, now that is scary. But I assure you, he’ll be in some ways almost irresistible to the women he meets, and he’ll know it. He’ll use that irresistibility to at first control his ladies, later he’ll have to resort to violence to control them. He’ll never understand why he’s had to do that because he’s self important, he’s irresistible, in his eyes he’s flawless, his very nature would dictate that he would have to find flaws in his ladies’.

I’ve laid out the character, now tell me KillerMuffin, is writing his story going to be easier in the first person or the third person? It is obvious, isn’t it? Maybe that was covered in creative writing 202. If I’m telling about an event in my life, it’s much easier to do so in the first person, but if the I is not I, then I find it much more difficult.

I do need to straighten something out here, autobiographical stories are just one form of first person, they are not the only nor are they the major use of first person. Killer, I might add that your ‘settle into real writing,’ sounds a wee bit condescending for my tastes. Now that we all know you’ve taken creative writing 101, can you tell us if you made it to 202. Yes, Killer I’ve been called a bitch before, it’s just my nature.

Your point, KillerMuffin, is well taken on character development but if the writer intends to develop his characters separate from how the narrator sees them, then the writer should not be using first person. No, No, No, it isn’t a neat trick, did you study during creative writing 101? What a bitch! First person is I, me, myself, as seem through the eyes of I, me, myself. Yes some enhancement of the other character can be done with dialog, but never contrary to how the I, me, myself sees them. For if the dialog does such, it is the I, me, myself telling the story, causing the I, me, myself to correct any impression of a character contrary to her own view. If you don’t follow that rule, then your story falls apart, or it isn’t first person. One other rule I seem to see other miss, first person means the I, me, myself is always present. You may let the dog out to pee, but if you don’t go with her, you don’t know that she did. If you’d like to read an excellent novel written in first person, one with very strong character development, may I suggest ‘While I Was Gone,’ by Sue Miller.

One method is not superior to the other, one method does not make one writer superior to another. Most good writers have at times used both. The choice of which way to go, depends first upon the writer, second on the intend of the writer. I personally feel that the use of the first person can be very forceful when the writer intends to make a strong moral point. Now maybe if I read penthouse forum, I don’t, I only look at the pictures, I’d change my mind. I know Killer thinks I’m a bitch, I just know it. Want to kiss and make up Killer. Come on Killer, I don’t bite very hard.

 

[KillerMuffin]

What crawled up your ass and died?

 

[M.A.Thompson]

Does anyone else like writing from the opposite POV?

When writing first person, I tend to envision myself as the narrator. If my protagonist is a female, I will choose third person.

Not to insult others as this is just my opinion, but I have trouble believing a story written in first person by someone the opposite sex of their narrator. Just how I feel.

 

[Couture]

But how do you know it is by someone of the opposite sex?

 

[NaughtyMike]

The main character can be likeable and still not be a nice person. My main charcater is an ego-maniac obcessed with his 5.3 inch penis size and female breasts. He sees himself as a master pussy eater, because he can write out dead language alphabets with his tongue. He doesn't do anything constructive with his knowledge of dead languages, other than this inane sexual habit. He also is a baseball nut, who thinks heavily about baseball players while having sex in order to delay that final moment.

His ability to predict the future is comically wrong. He buys a beta-max because they are the wave of the future and belittles Wal-Mart as an idea that will fail.

While the main guy means well, he lets his little head do to much of his thinking for him. He likes prostitues, but has "normal" relationships also. Involving prostitutes refrians from the building of secondary characters, as they tend to be one time use. I make use of comparing them to real known people to protray their looks and sometimes not great, i.e. Monica Lewinsky.

I very much enjoyed the main charcater in the book, "A Confederacy of Dunces" -Ignatius J. Reilly. He was not a very nice person, but very likeable.

 

[M.A.Thompson]

But how do you know it is by someone of the opposite sex?

In many cases here at lit an authors sex can easily be determined by the clues he or she leaves in their screen name, bio, posts on the boards, ect…, but I would not be surprised if I have been fooled before.

But I remain by my opinion that it is something that just does not work for me. I do not believe I am alone in this as I am trying to think of an example in popular fiction where a well-known author has written first person/opposite sex and cannot come up with one. Though I am sure there is someone out there who probably can.

 

[KillerMuffin]

S. E. Hinton wrote most of hers in first person and the first person was usually an adolescent boy. She was so successful that most people thought she was a man.

The Outsiders
Rumble Fish
That Was Then, This is Now

To name a few. She's classic American literature.

 

[M.A.Thompson]

She was so successful that most people thought she was a man.

Count me among them. I was unaware the writer who gave Pony Boy (one of my first heros) his voice was a woman. Thank you KM for finding one, I knew someone would.

I continue to uphold my opinion though, especially when it come to erotica.

 

[BatsandGlamour]

POV

I have a question for any of the experienced writers on the site.

I enjoy writing from 1st person as well, it helps me focus. I've had stories read by more than 100,000 people that were written from my personal POV, because they are How To's.

But how do you set up a scene from the 1st person? "I pulled up the driveway and marveled at the subtle shades of color in the changing leaves..." I would rather decribe it in another way. How can I describe what the character looks like?

Also, and this is a bigee...what do you do with a scene where the main character, from who's POV the story is being written, is not in the scene?

Any good answers would be greatly appreciated.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Count me among them. I was unaware the writer who gave Pony Boy (one of my first heros) his voice was a woman. Thank you KM for finding one, I knew someone would.

I continue to uphold my opinion though, especially when it come to erotica.

I do wonder, now that you've mentioned it. Don't mean to be rude or argumentative, just curious.

How does erotica differ from male adolescent teen angst that a woman cannot write a first person male perspective and vice versa? I, personally, would think that as a female it would be far more difficult to write a convincing boy in emotional turmoil than it would be to write a convincing male-POV sex scene.

 

[TheEarl]

When writing first person, I tend to envision myself as the narrator. If my protagonist is a female, I will choose third person

When I write 1st person female POV, I still put something of myself into all of them. Then again I have been told I have a very female mind.

I have older sisters and I've lived outnumbered F/M by 3/1. Many people do seem to have the wrong kind of body for that kind of mind. Many writers can write from the opposite perspective because when they try and write from their perspective, their audience doesn't get it. If you see what I mean.

Diane-Marie, if it helps, I think you're a bitch. You've already jumped down my throat and accused me of being a mysogynistic pig for asking what lesbians prefer in bed and now you're noising up KM. You've only written 31 posts. Personally, I'd wait until you know people a little better before you go insulting them and making stupid assumptions.

The Earl

 

[Pookie]

Re: POV

I have a question for any of the experienced writers on the site.

But how do you set up a scene from the 1st person? "I pulled up the driveway and marveled at the subtle shades of color in the changing leaves..." I would rather decribe it in another way. How can I describe what the character looks like?

I wouldn't call myself experienced, but here goes ...

It really depends on what type of story you are writing. I usually begin a story by reflecting on the life of the protagonist and other main character(s) as needed. I try to avoid giving a lot of detail. I avoid describing characters beyond some basic things. I try to let the reader learn about the character(s) as they go through the story. Basically, I don't try to cram things down the readers throat. I treat it just like I do when learning about a new friend ... it happens over time, not all at once.

Don't try describing what the character looks like. It will have a negative affect on the story. You can mention things about the characters' appearance and personalities through clever dialogue. For example, I could let the reader know the protagonist is blonde by having her react to a "dumb blonde" joke told by another character. You could let the reader know she is popular by having her hang up the phone is disgust because all these guys keep begging her to go on a date. You can let the reader know she is athletic by mentioning she is going to softball practice. Be clever with how you give the reader information. Avoid a "I have blonde hair, athletic, etc." type thing in your story.

Avoid describing things like "I pulled up the driveway and marveled at the subtle shades of color in the changing leaves...". Way too much of a description. You can mention the "season" at some other point if it is important to know. People don't suddenly realize it is autumn pulling into someone's driveway. Establish the season earlier in the story IF it is important to know. Then focus on why he is going to her house; the thoughts of the protagonist as he approaches her house. Treat the story as if you were living it and the reader is able to watch all that is happening along with you. You don't have to describe everything to the reader ... they can see it just as you can if you feed them slowly.

Also, and this is a bigee...what do you do with a scene where the main character, from who's POV the story is being written, is not in the scene?

There is nothing you can do with it until the protagonist becomes aware of what did take place through some other means (another character tells the protagonist, the protagonist reads the minutes of the meeting, etc.). You can only tell what the protagonist can observe firsthand. Anything else would have to be pure speculation until another character makes the protagonist aware of what did happen in the other room. This is actually one of the strengths of a first person story; it builds suspense with the reader (just what the hell did happen in that room??? did she cheat on me in there???, etc.)

Hope this helps.

 

[Couture]

To me, it doesn't matter whether or not the First Person is likable. What I like is interesting. If I'm going to take the time to read a story, I want the author to at least try to make the characters interesting.

 

[BatsandGlamour]

1st person POV

Thanks a lot, Pookie_grrl, that was some good info. I appreciate it.