19,000 Votes Florida DISQUALIFIED

[Ambrosious]

Have you seen the ballot they are contested many of the votes from? How can you not understand it?

Maybe it says something about the "smarts", or lack thereof, by these 19,000 people and we should be grateful that their votes don't count due to their stupidity?

The ballot here clearly said if you vote for more than one, it will be disqualified. Sounds like those 19,000 people in Florida could benefit from Mrs. Bush and her literacy programs.

Thank you, thank you! If you are to stupid to fill out a ballot, I don't want you voting in the general election anyway. And WHY NOT ask for help? I think that those people voted for Buchannan to make a statement, not believing that the race would be so close. HA HA! Made your statemnet, didn't ya?

 

[Cheri]

Ok so it wasn't the most obvious ballot in history, but still if you study it a bit, it's not that confusing! Dear God people, this is the presidential election, do you think you could take a moment to look and observe things before punching holes?
So I'm curious, CelestialBody, what do you think should happen now? You obviously have strong feeling about it.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[insideShiraz]

Kiss asses of the World...

Bush has nothing to step down from, as he was never officially elected President. Even without allegations of widespread voter fraud, this election is so close that neither candidate can claim to be acting on behalf of "the people". Add to that the near-even splits of the House and the Senate and you have a recipe for four years of nothing getting done, which might be best for the country anyway.

Laurel,

After this began unfolding after I got home from work the other night, I couldn't tear myself away (P/T)...And was caught up especially when Bush had Florida recalled too, I didn't sleep and went to work going Wow! Fuck!

So much has been cut in half right across the boards this elections, even now as of Thursday, look what hasn't yet been decided! ( On Tuesday night,I was trying to kick some late States in the ass,"Come on!!! Wut's Taking you so Long?")

But this post is only to make mention of all of that...

When I read your post about the elections, I just had to say this: After I became conscious of who you were, I thought some of the posts concerning you were so kiss ass...

But your particular post here made me just want to stop and say what I might have thought along the way somewhere and forgot to tell you...You are so cool!...Your quick insight is dead on almost everytime...and I mean Quick!

I'll be sharing your insight from here with others who won't admit to this great place, and telling people to open up and come here...

Thanks again...

 

[Lasher]

After reading this I thought it might be helpful for people to actually see the ballot in question.

http://www.lasherzlinks.com/main.gif

In case anyone hasn't seen this, here's more info from USAToday:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/pres.htm

Democratic Party officials and hundreds of voters complained that, in the Palm Beach ballots, voters punched holes in the middle of the ballot, while candidates were alternately listed to the left and then the right.

''It was virtually impossible to know who you voted for,'' said Mark Hirsch, a 30-year-old business executive who voted for Green Party candidate Ralph Nader.

Some Gore supporters in Palm Beach County said they feared they mistakenly voted for Buchanan. Gore carried the county by more than 110,000 votes, but the 3,407 votes for Buchanan were by far the most of any Florida county, and almost 20% of his total vote in the state.

Republicans noted that the ballot was approved by Democrat Theresa LePore, the county supervisor of elections.

Former secretary of state James Baker, who was sent by Bush to oversee the GOP monitoring team in Florida, angrily told Today that Palm Beach County voters' rights were upheld even if their ballots were thrown out.

''They did have a chance to have their voices heard,'' he said. ''And let me tell you something else about that ballot: That ballot was posted, as required by Florida law, in newspapers and public places all over the state of Florida. Not one complaint was received about that ballot, which, by the way, was approved by a Democrat who was elected. A Democratic election supervisor approved that ballot. And we haven't heard one gripe about that ballot until after the voting took place.''

Because of his vested interest in the outcome, the Florida governor (Jeb Bush) recused himself from the panel that will certify results of the recount. Agriculture Secretary Bob Crawford, a Democrat who supported the governor in the 1998 election, will replace him on the panel, officials said Thursday.

 

[Sonora]

[/B]

And WHY NOT ask for help? [/B][/QUOTE]

If the polling place was very busy, I can see where some people would be hesitant to ask for help. Seniors seem to not want to bother people and then there are always some that think that they are the only one that might be confused and they don't want to look less-than-smart.

[/B]

Ok so it wasn't the most obvious ballot in history, but still if you study it a bit, it's not that confusing! [/B][/QUOTE]

I think that first thing I thought when I saw the ballot was that we read from left to right ON THE SAME (left-hand side) PAGE, then go to the right-hand side of the book(let). If I were voting, and possibly in a hurry, I would have looked for the guy I wanted and seeing that Gore was the second one listed, punched the second hole.

 

[Laurel]

But your particular post here made me just want to stop and say what I might have thought along the way somewhere and forgot to tell you...You are so cool!...Your quick insight is dead on almost everytime...and I mean Quick!

Wow! *blush* Thanks, and back atcha...

As for the election, here are the facts:

1) Over 19,000 Gore ballots were disqualified for either a) a technicality that had to do with the design of the ballot; or b) fraud on the part of Jeb Bush and his posse.

2) An additional 3,000+ ballots were wrongly cast for Buchanan. Ultra-conservative Pat Buchanan himself now says that he believes he did not rightfully get these votes, and he also says that Gore won Florida and won the election.

3) Salon.com is now reporting that at least some Republicans overseas voted twice for George W. Bush by sending in two Florida absentee ballots.

4) There are widespread and verifiable reports of minority voter intimidation in several areas of Florida.

5) Bush currently leads by less than 300 votes in Florida.

6) Bush promised throughout the campaign that he would do "the Will of the People". The Will of the People in America - and in Florida - is that Al Gore be the next President. Bush is now arguing that regardless of the will of the people - fraud, intimidation, and/or a technicality might allow him to win AGAINST the Will of the People. If he has any integrity, he will stop grasping for straws and admit defeat.

You can spin this any way you want, but the Truth - like it or not - is that Al Gore received more votes in Florida than George W. Bush.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Salon.com, huh? Doesn't "Republican wonk" also like that site? And what about "Tribal voice"?

 

[Weird Harold]

If I were voting, and possibly in a hurry, I would have looked for the guy I wanted and seeing that Gore was the second one listed, punched the second hole.

Gee, I'd punch the hole next to the arrow that matched the number next to the arrow.

I've voted on that type of voting machine, and with ballots arranged the same way. probably 90+ percent of the people who voted there were NOT first time voters, and Florida has been using those same machines for 20 years.

As to the title of this thread, One of the news services made a very interesting point. 19,000 ballots were double punched and thereby disqualified. In 1996, 14,000 ballots in that precint were double punched and thereby disqualified.

Statistically, that amounts to the same percentage of stupid voters in two consecutive presidential elections.

Florida has a history of election fraud. That's why the recount was automatic -- they had no choice! That's why the questionable ballot was published two weeks before the election for people to contest if the thought it would be confusing. That's why the statistical anomaly of Buchannon votes is automatically required to undergo a judicial review!

Florida has set safeguards in place to make their elections as fair as possible. I'd much rather have Florida deciding the issue than many other states where they've done less to make sure elections aren't tampered with.

 

[Cheri]

Has no one else had a ballot similar to this in some election? I know I have. It didn't confuse me then and it doesn't confuse me now. By the way I voted for Gore so I feel I have a vested interest in seeing him win this thing, but if his people don't stop acting as though they are going to push this thing to the Supreme Court, I'm dropping him like a hot potato! I'm quickly losing respect for the man, as if I had much to begin with.

 

[Laurel]

Salon.com, huh? Doesn't "Republican wonk" also like that site? And what about "Tribal voice"?

I also visited Yahoo once, and I heard that "Lasher" and "Deborah" might have been there too. I smell a rat.

 

[Magic Merlin]

Cheri, I'm 100% with you.

I've used that type of ballot for the last 12 years. The first time I saw it I thought it was a little confusing as I had never seen one like it before. But at soon as I saw that "black" arrow leading from the candidate to the punch mark, I figured it out. It really is pretty simple if you run your eyes across from your candidates name follow the black arrow and punch the hole.

I can understand the recount. It was so close that is makes sense. However, if Gore loses in the recount and continues to fight this then he has lost any respect I had for him. Even though I voted for him.

STrange thing about my polling place the other night. I was expecting the same type of ballot, but they had replaced the punching machine with a hand written ballot where we used black felt tip markers to cast our vote. I wonder why that was?

 

[Thumper]

I have heard it before...

"If they can't figure out the ballot then they shouldn't be allowed to vote!"

Well then let's just reinstitute a literacy test.

I think this particular county had problems in 1996. Apparently 15,000+ ballots were invalidated for double punching. What I want to know is why nobody said "Hey there seems to be something amiss here, let's find out what might be the problem."

Rather than voting again they should invalidate the whole county.

Seems to me that the ballot should be redesigned with large type and all on one side...standardize it damnit!

I could figure it out but if I was rushed I might indeed make a mistake, and if it was busy I might not even ask for another ballot especially if I was elderly. They take enough shit out there in everyday life.

Temper all of this rhetoric with the question "Would I be saying the same things if it was the other way around."
I think this whole fiasco merely points up some flaws in the system which need to be addressed. Why weren't they fixed before? Simple it never made a difference before as it has now. As always we have to wait for a disaster to fix something..

Gore should perhaps concede...if only because a sitting vice president that fails to win by a wide margin in a good economy indicates a serious lack of confidence by the public. He should have walked away with it.

 

[Nogard]

One comment, the ballot was illegal acording to FLORIDA law. the box must be to the right of the name. As I understand it, this ballot was only used in this one area to make it easier for the voters I am not from Florida but usually read all the articles that apply to an issue, not just the ones that support my position. Nuff said

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Skibum]

I have never missed a Presidential election in my adult life, and I have never voted on anything other than a paper ballot. To avoid confusion, we should get rid of the voting machines and go back to a simple, easy to read paper ballot, standardized for all the states. Then there would be no excuse for screwing it up.

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[Weird Harold]

I have never missed a Presidential election in my adult life, and I have never voted on anything other than a paper ballot. To avoid confusion, we should get rid of the voting machines and go back to a simple, easy to read paper ballot, standardized for all the states. Then there would be no excuse for screwing it up.

I like Nevada's (Clark County at least) new voting machines. This is the third election they've used them, and except for the first one, there's been no problems. The votes are counted by midnight, and it's impossible to "double punch." If you make a mistake and push the wrong button, just push it again to clear that vote and select another. Once all of the green arrows are pointing to the person you want to vote for, the press the "cast vote" button to record your vote.

An election worker is required to explain the machine and answer any questions the voter might have before closing the curtain. (Every election worker I've encountered did explain, and explained clearly, emphasizing that you can change your mind up until you press that cast vote button.)

Such machines weren't cheap, but once the bugs were worked out of the procedures that first election, they're damn near idiot proof, and totally tamper proof. Vote fraud can only be accomplished by voting more than once, or reprogramming the machines. The improvement in vote counting and reduction in confusing made the expense well worth it.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Excellent post, WH. You're right on the money with this one. The accusation by Jesse Jackson today that the double-punching of ballots was tantamount to "the disenfranchisement of 19,000 voters" is utterly ridiculous. Florida has established a system for preventing voting errors such as these before and during an election. After the votes are cast, it's too late, and as CreamyLady said on another thread (in an excellent post, btw), you're SOL.

Here are the reasons why:

1. The ballot was published in the local paper and mailed to registered voters in advance of the election. This gave people who were concerned about the ballot opportunity to voice their objections. And how many objections were received? Zero.

2. The ballot was approved by both parties. A local Democratic party representative reviewed the ballot and parroved it. The public AND the parties had ample time and opportunity to change the ballot before the election and did not. And now we should discount the results of a ballot approved by the public and the parties?

3. People are allowed to ask for help and to receive a new ballot during the election. If a voter is confused, all he has to do is step outside the booth and ask an official for clarification. If he punches the wrong ballot he has only to ask for a new one and have the original voided.

4. One can only vote for one candidate (or ticket) in any particular race. This would seem obvious even for some of the rather mentally-challenged voters I saw interviewed complaining about being so confused they voted for 2 candidates. How can you expect either vote to count. Is the machine that reads the ballot supposed to guess which you really meant to vote for? or read your mind? or count both? There's absolutely no reason to vote for 2 candidates even if you're confused.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

I also visited Yahoo once, and I heard that "Lasher" and "Deborah" might have been there too. I smell a rat.

LOL.

Who else on the board is so articulate, passionately liberal, fiesty, and apt to use the term "republican wonk" in multiple posts, though?

And I know it wasn't "Lasher" and "Deborah", because they're both me.

 

[Cheyenne]

Hey, Shiraz. I think I'm pretty safe in assuming no one here believes I kiss Laurel's ass.

And I don't regret or apologize for what I said about the 19,000 idiot (potential) voters. I meant it.

 

[talk2024]

It was a comment about voter turnout, but it could well apply to the ballots as well... last week Andy Rooney was on Larry King and replied that he believed that the reason so few people show up to vote is because there are a lot of dumb Americans... 19,000 of them in Florida voted twice!

 

[Flagg]

Whatever happens I still have faith in our system and the process

Ye of incredibly excessive faith

Flagg-that was as nice of a blanket statement as the one Merelan issued herself. If you're going to criticize people on their faith in the gov, at least tell us, how often does you're vote count in the US-oh, wait you can't. You don't live here, you don't vote here, and you weren't raised inside of this system. It is very easy to offer critiques when you are on the outside looking in. Why don't you do us all a favor and stick something you know-you're own parliamentary system-oh oh wait. Damn-you only get to vote once every, every seven years is it? OR when Parliament has done something to appease the masses and decides to hold elections to capitolize on the goodwill of the people. Yeah-that sounds just great to me...

On this particular point CB, you really do need to be quiet. I'm not american so I can't comment on what's going on? What kind of insane world do you inhabit. Some of you people are so incredibly defensive and down right childish that it really does make one wonder. What have you got to hide? Do you have political satire over there? Do you have your own fucking minds? Thick skin is what you need dontcha know.

 

[Daytripper]

Hey, Shiraz. I think I'm pretty safe in assuming no one here believes I kiss Laurel's ass.

And I don't regret or apologize for what I said about the 19,000 idiot (potential) voters. I meant it.

It's pretty rude of you to call elderly people 'stupid'. I doubt you'd be calling them 'stupid' if they were Bush voters. Too bad you conservatives are too partisan to see the big picture. More people voted for Gore than Bush in the state of FL, that's the fact, the ballot was illegal too. If you conservatives start whining about Gore 'wasting our time in the courts' I'll laugh my ass right off. Remember Kenneth Starr, millions of taxpayer dollars wasted in court. Gore won, Bush is not my President, never will be.

 

[WriterDom]

almost 15,000 were double punched in palm beach county in 1996. it happens.. this is just more liberal "win at all cost" spin