Women and abusive relationships

What the hell is it with women? Why do so many women jump from one abusive asshole to the next, destroying not only their lives, but those of their children? How do you just not ever get a fucking clue?

I'm currently awaiting a reply to an email I sent to a longtime friend, telling her my feelings on her relationship habits. She's been having an on-again, off-again relationship with a guy who's shoved her into walls in front of her twelve year old son, cheated on her, called her stupid, a whore, and a slut (also in front of her son,) cut her off from her friends and family, and just generally treated her like shit. She stays at his place until all hours of the evening, not even bothering to let her son know where she is. Her son's grades dropped since she's been seeing this guy, to the point that he failed every class last year; he used to get A's and B's. He's also regressed to bedwetting.

Given that when she was freaking out about her sister threatening to call social services on her and I said that her sister might've had a point about her boyfriend being dangerous - and I didn't even know all of it then - she freaked out on me and told me that anyone who thinks she's a bad mother can go to hell, I'm not feeling too optimistic about her reply.

I'm sure your "friend" appreciated you heaping your scorn (abuse) on top of that that she's already receiving from her boyfriend.



You can't possibly know the dynamics of the relationship. If he truly is abusive, you have no idea whether he has threatened her life if she leaves, or the lives of her son, and the rest of her family - it's extremely common. I don't blame her for telling you what she did. I wouldn't have been quite so polite about it.

People abuse each other. Proven here by the abuse you just heaped on a friend.

Tough love doesn't qualify if it's not loving.

The needs of the child must come first.

An 8th grade boy is suddenly flunking all his classes and has regressed to bedwetting over this situation? I'm surprised the school hasn't begun to question what is happening at his home.

Our school district is required by law to get social services involved if we suspect anything like this.

My sympathies.

sweetsubsarahh said:

The needs of the child must come first.

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I agree.

However, I'm beyond tired of people blaming the woman being abused because she didn't just pack up and leave. How many times have we heard "If he's abusing you/her, just leave!"?

It's so much more complicated than that, and I feel sorry for her "friend." If her friends are jumping on the blame bandwagon, then the poor woman really has no support system in place to help her get out of the situation.

cloudy said:

I agree.

However, I'm beyond tired of people blaming the woman being abused because she didn't just pack up and leave. How many times have we heard "If he's abusing you/her, just leave!"?

It's so much more complicated than that, and I feel sorry for her "friend." If her friends are jumping on the blame bandwagon, then the poor woman really has no support system in place to help her get out of the situation.

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quite so..... things are never as straight laced as they can appear..... rather than pouring scorn on the woman for accepting the abuse, and then leaving her to sort it out, people should be trying to help her get out of it.... and the child certainly must be protected from any more mental stress in some way.... i feel the school are letting both mother and child down by not stepping into this, they must realise something is wrong

i know there can be a sort of reluctance to report such things to the authorities in some cases.... this sounds like a prime example of a case that needs reporting... not just to lock the bloke up, which is what he certainly needs, either that or his lights punched out... but maybe counselling for all concerned...... and help for the woman and child to get out of it if she wants that option.

i'm not the sort to put up with an abusive partner, so i can't really comment further on ways she should sort her life out...... i like a bit of pain and rough stuff as a sex act, but won't put up with it as a sport....... i had one b/f who thought he could slap me about in a nasty way....... i hit him on the back of the head with a wine bottle before i walked out.

Your reaction is understandable MzD. Many people feel that way as well.

The problem being that abuse is very misunderstood. I used to think the same way until I met with abused women. I do so weekly.

Your friend reacts the only way she knows how because of extreme fear. That is one of the main reasons why people stay with their abusers.
I am with women who are divorced and have restraining orders on their abusers and have still been abused. Many are never safe again. That is the sad reality of it.

If you had 100 abusers in a room, only two of them stand a chance of ever changing. An abuser feels justified in what they do. Its control.

Its easy to ask "Why don't they just leave?".......they can't. The circumstances vary from fear to finance.

There is an excellent book by Lundy Bancroft "Why does he do that?" it goes into the mind of abusers. How they justify their actions and why victims feel like they do. Abusers are very manipulative.

Sadly it does affect the children as well as friends and family. What it takes is understanding and support. On average a victim will leave their abuser 8 times. Some people hope that the person will change unaware that they won't.

Another setback is with the court systems, law enforcement and children's services. Many victims are kept in unsafe situations. Marriage counceling and anger management do not work.

The best one can do is be educated and supportive. Offer them a safe place or help them find a women's shelter or resource center. They will give them what they need. First and foremost they will offer a safety plan.

I wish your friend luck.

Samandiriel said:

If you had 100 abusers in a room, only two of them stand a chance of ever changing. An abuser feels justified in what they do. Its control.

Another setback is with the court systems, law enforcement and children's services. Many victims are kept in unsafe situations. Marriage counceling and anger management do not work.

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I must disagree. There is a facility out in California where they had 65,000 trained counsellors [prior to redeployment to Iraq.] If you take an abuser out to that facility and he kicks ass on all 65,000 Marines one at a time, then you can tell me counselling doesn't work. Usually, the counselling will work with ONE session with a trained hand-to-hand counsellor [I am counting the abusers who don't survive as cured.]

You are correct, the court systems and law enforcement not only don't care, they worry about the abusers. Children's Services is a not very funny laugh. They come into a house and see a badly bruised child and they allow the situation to continue. Then the same Children's Services cry real tears when the same child winds up dead at the hands of an abuser.

It is not only possible to cure an abuser, but it is really quite simple. That is, it is simple if you don't give a damn about the abuser.

cloudy, recidiva... we don't know what MzD said to her friend BEFORE she said the things that made her friend freak out. It is possible that she has adviced her in a more polite and loving choice of words to leave the man, and that she now tried tough love as an ultimate resort.

We don't know. However, if a friend of mine was in an abusive relationship, my first words would be "do you need a place to stay until the divorce is final?"

Svenskaflicka said:

cloudy, recidiva... we don't know what MzD said to her friend BEFORE she said the things that made her friend freak out. It is possible that she has adviced her in a more polite and loving choice of words to leave the man, and that she now tried tough love as an ultimate resort.

We don't know. However, if a friend of mine was in an abusive relationship, my first words would be "do you need a place to stay until the divorce is final?"

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Even a polite request to offer help can be rejected out of hand by a person in an abusive relationship. At that point I'm supporting deprogramming. Kidnapping. They do it for cults, right?

Willpower

The one thing that an abused person needs before breaking out of the situation is willpower.

That is the one attribute that the abuser is likely to have attacked and eroded until the victim is unable to break free. Support and help can only go so far until the victim's willpower is strong enough to say 'no more' and mean it. The abuser has practice in manipulating the victim even after the first steps have been made to break out.

The authorities and anyone else can do little without the victim's cooperation. The abuser knows that from experience and will use any means available to ensure that the victim does not cooperate. The Austrian girl recently freed after 8 years shows just what lengths an abuser will go to. He threatened to kill her parents and any neighbour that she approached. She believed that he would.

An outsider to the situation can do very little unless the victim can break out by themself.

If the victim had a strong will in the first place, and maintained that will, they would have been an unlikely victim. However extreme cases of violent attack and imprisonment could make a victim of anyone e.g. some of the kidnappings in the Middle East.

Og

oggbashan said:

The one thing that an abused person needs before breaking out of the situation is willpower.

That is the one attribute that the abuser is likely to have attacked and eroded until the victim is unable to break free. Support and help can only go so far until the victim's willpower is strong enough to say 'no more' and mean it. The abuser has practice in manipulating the victim even after the first steps have been made to break out.

The authorities and anyone else can do little without the victim's cooperation. The abuser knows that from experience and will use any means available to ensure that the victim does not cooperate. The Austrian girl recently freed after 8 years shows just what lengths an abuser will go to. He threatened to kill her parents and any neighbour that she approached. She believed that he would.

An outsider to the situation can do very little unless the victim can break out by themself.

If the victim had a strong will in the first place, and maintained that will, they would have been an unlikely victim. However extreme cases of violent attack and imprisonment could make a victim of anyone e.g. some of the kidnappings in the Middle East.

Og

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Yes.

- An abuser will isolate a woman from the very support network that is absolutely vital for her to be able to get away from him. He will slowly but surely cut her off from her family/friends, usually by pitching such a fit when she wants to spend time with them that the confrontation is no longer worth it.

- They will tell you that you're stupid, that you're ugly, and that no one will ever want you but them...they're the only ones that can put up with you. Or conversely, they'll tell you that no one will ever be as good to you as they are. After hearing how stupid/how ugly/how fat/how worthless you are constantly for a long period of time, you start to believe it, no matter what the evidence to the contrary.

- They tell you that if you leave, they'll hunt you down and kill you. It's believable, too, because most likely they've already hurt you pretty badly. When they realize that their threats/actions towards you no longer have any effect (after all, what is there to be afraid of? It's already about as bad as it can get), they'll tell you that if you don't conform to some arbitrary standard, or if you get the courage to leave, they'll just kill your mother, your sister, etc.

- a lot of women in abusive relationships have no other source of income other than their husband/boyfriend. When you have children, you'll put up with just about anything to make sure that they're fed, clothed, etc., if you have been convinced that you could never make enough money to support them.

- And, finally, since his income may be the only income, they'll convince you that you can leave anytime you like, but the children will stay, because you can't support them. I don't know many women that would leave their children like that, or in a situation like that.

I may have been overly harsh in my first post in this thread, but honestly...if its truly as bad as you say it is, the last thing she needs is someone else coming down on her. She needs support, and a hand up, not having someone she counts on tell her how "stupid" she is for staying.

Actually, as Og has pointed out and as Cloudy has pointed out the abused woman needs will power and money to break away from her abuser. However, there is a third thing she needs and that is physical security. Given willpower and money, the woman is almost always smaller and weaker than her abuser. The final item needed is to insure the physical security of the woman who would leave her abuser. Unfortunately, the police, the courts and even social services are just not willing to guarantee physical security. The problem is that all of the government agancies are more concerned with the welfare of the abuser than the welfare of a woman and her children. It is a sad state of affairs.

I think you're all being a bit hard on MzD.

She cares about this friend, is worried about her, and is very worried and troubled about the child. She states that the friend is NOT married to this guy and not living with him. The relationship is "on-again/off-again." That gives us a little more of a view of it. It means that the guy probably isn't supporting her financially. That she has left him before and gone back--perhaps because he threatened her or perhaps because he swore he'd changed and her denial/hope makes her believe him.

She does not, however writes to her long-time friend MsD and say, "I want to leave him, but I can't. I'm worried about my son, I'm lonely and afraid. Help me!" Instead she says, "My sister wants to call Social Services on me and my boyfriend! This is terrible! I'm not a bad mom! There's nothing wrong with my boyfriend, he's just misunderstood, and nothing wrong with my son--he's just having a bad year!"

In otherwords, asking MsD to help her maintain her denial so she won't have to face the terrible truth.

And you get mad at MsD for losing her cool?

Let's agree that at this point, the friend is as manipulated, hypnotized, and cowed by fear as any kidnap victim. She is cut off and lonely. She is trying not to see the truth because seeing the truth means she has to make a very hard decision: leave him with all that means, even to being threatened, stalked, etc. Or stick with him and continue to hope things will change.

Okay. Fine. But there's that kid. And if what's happening with the son doesn't make the mom face the truth and make that terrible decison, then what about that kid? How long must he be stuck with this? How long before he gets beat on by this guy? Or has he already been beat on by this guy? How long must he watch this abuse of his mother? How long must his life be derailed in this terrible way?

I'm sorry. But I have to side with MsD. Call social services. Get that kid out of there. Offer the mom help, too, but NO ONE can afford to wait for her to get out of there, however hard it is to do (and we will gant that it is VERY hard to do. But every minute it isn't done the kid suffers). The kid is already psychologically and emotionally screwed. The faster he can be gotten out of that situation the better. However much you empathize with the mother, the kid should not be forced to suffer a minute longer.

I know a woman in a relationship where the husband shows clear tendencies to become an oppressor. However, there's nothing I can say or do; partly because I'm not this woman's friend, only an aquaintance, and partly because she's head over heels in love with the guy and finds millions of excuses for his behavior. In a discussion with her parents, he even stated that he might consider beating her up if she ever cheated on him, and she agreed that in such a situation she would DESERVE to get beaten up!!!
*slaps forehead*
It's tragic when you recognize every step and turn of this dance macabre but you can't do anything to stop it, because neither one of the dancers want any interference.

cloudy said:

I may have been overly harsh in my first post in this thread, but honestly...if its truly as bad as you say it is, the last thing she needs is someone else coming down on her. She needs support, and a hand up, not having someone she counts on tell her how "stupid" she is for staying.

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I actually said nothing of the sort to her; I was letting steam out in this thread because I'm not an idiot and know that yelling at people like this only makes them distance themselves from you and feel more isolated, reenforcing the 'me-and-him-against-the-world' feelings he's doing his best to engender.

What I did say was that it's a fact that many men who start abusing their girlfriend's/wife's kids start out only abusing them (she had been using the old 'he would NEVER do anything to my kid' argument); they graduate to abusing the kids too only after they've got the women so thoroughly brainwashed and terrified that they're scared to leave them even if he's hurting her kids. I also repeated what her sister said, that it's not a coincidence that since she's been dating this guy, her son's marks have dropped and he's returned to bedwetting, both of which she screamed at her kid for, incidentally. I suggested she try a victims of abuse support group and/or counselling, and I told her that I hoped she wouldn't be mad because I value our friendship.

But good on you for not being afraid to make snap judgments.

3113 is right about her income not being tied to this guy's. She also knew she had a problem when she was between relationships, and would sporadically state that she needed counselling; when encouraged to pursue it, she would either minimize the problem or say that she doesn't like shrinks. This is what she views as normal because of her mother's relationship patterns; both she and her sister have followed in her mom's footsteps. They both know enough about psychology to know they have a problem, but even when single and not in contact with any psychotic exes, they don't pursue any counselling. Quite simply, they were victims of a shitty upbringing, but now they're turning their own kids into victims because they don't really want to change.

Give me a little credit; I've known a few abuse victims. I have a friend who married a guy who beat the shit out of her and her newborn baby, told her he'd kill her, broke down her self-esteem, cheated on her, and all those lovely things; she endured this for a couple of years before leaving. I don't judge her because this was the only relationship she'd ever been in.

My other friend however, has been in many relationships, and you know what? It's not just the physically abusive she's prone to, it's the drama. I've known her for YEARS. I was friends with her sister before too and I used to lay up at night sick with worry over her abusive relationships. I was there for her, constantly there, reassuring her, quietly trying to be there and support her. And then, I started to notice how happy she was with a crowd gathered around her, relating what her boyfriend had done this week, laughing and joking about it; There are women who are abused because they genuinely don't know how it got to that point, and there are women who are addicted to the drama of intense and destructive relationships and not only seek them out, but encourage them. It was frustrating when these two weren't moms, but now it's downright terrifying.

If you still want to view them as innocent, terrified victims and me as the big, bad bitch who rips on abused women, then go ahead. I've already explained myself more than is due as a response to your ignorant post. If you don't believe that there are women who are addicted to the attention they get when they have bad relationships, I suggest you do some research. It's a fact. Do you know what it's called when you sit there and coo over someone who's had her twenty-millionth shitty relationship and still doesn't try and change their pattern? Enabling. How old are you before you become responsible for changing yourself?

In response to 3113, yeah. It's getting to that point. Right now we're currently in the 'off-again' phase, so I'm hoping against hope that she'll see how much this affects her son. I love her, and I know she loves her son and I don't want to see him taken away from her, but if she gets back together with him, or moreover, if she gets into another abusive relationship with a different guy, I'm gonna make the call. If it gets to that point, maybe that will finally wake her up.

Recidiva said:

Even a polite request to offer help can be rejected out of hand by a person in an abusive relationship. At that point I'm supporting deprogramming. Kidnapping. They do it for cults, right?

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You know, I actually was looking into having an intervention for her before. I figured if they can make junkies who are addicted to the point that they're stealing from their own families to support their habits snap out of it, maybe it could work for a situation like this...

To get back to the original question, the person who goes from one abusive relationship to another, or who stays with an existing one when it would be possible to get out, is looking to fill some need that goes back to their own childhood.

A quick google search for "codependence" uncovered a lot of interesting stuff, including this: "Some characteristics of codependence":

1 My good feelings about who I am stem from being liked by you and receiving approval from you.

2 Your struggles affect my serenity. I focus my mental attention on solving your problems or relieving your pain.

3 I focus my mental attention on pleasing you, protecting you, or manipulating you to "do it my way."

4 I bolster my self-esteem by solving your problems and relieving your pain.

5 I put aside my own hobbies and interests. I spend my time sharing your interests and hobbies.

6 Because I feel you are a reflection of me, my desires dictate your clothing and personal appearance.

7 My desires dictate your behavior.

8 I am not aware of how I feel. I am aware of how you feel.

9 I am not aware of what I want. I ask you what you want.

10 If I am not aware of something, I assume (I don't ask or verify in some other way).

11 My fear of your anger and rejection determines what I say or do.

12 In our relationship I use giving as a way of feeling safe.

13 As I involve myself with you, my social circle diminishes.

14 To connect with you, I put my values aside.

15 I value your opinion and way of doing things more than my own.

16 The quality of my life depends on the quality of yours.

17 I am always trying to fix or take care of others while neglecting myself.

18 I find it easier to give in and comply with others than to express my own wants and needs.

19 I sometimes feel sorry for myself, feeling no one understands. I think about getting help, but rarely commit or follow through.

http://www.psychpage.com/learning/library/assess/subabuse3.htm

MzDeviancy said:

What the hell is it with women? Why do so many women jump from one abusive asshole to the next, destroying not only their lives, but those of their children? How do you just not ever get a fucking clue?

I'm currently awaiting a reply to an email I sent to a longtime friend, telling her my feelings on her relationship habits. She's been having an on-again, off-again relationship with a guy who's shoved her into walls in front of her twelve year old son, cheated on her, called her stupid, a whore, and a slut (also in front of her son,) cut her off from her friends and family, and just generally treated her like shit. She stays at his place until all hours of the evening, not even bothering to let her son know where she is. Her son's grades dropped since she's been seeing this guy, to the point that he failed every class last year; he used to get A's and B's. He's also regressed to bedwetting.

Given that when she was freaking out about her sister threatening to call social services on her and I said that her sister might've had a point about her boyfriend being dangerous - and I didn't even know all of it then - she freaked out on me and told me that anyone who thinks she's a bad mother can go to hell, I'm not feeling too optimistic about her reply.

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what a dork you are.

I can only answer this from my own somewhat warped perspective.

I have been on the outside looking in too many times.

All that you, as an outsider to the relationship can do is be there for the abused. Be there for them, support them, (as uncomfortable as this may make you feel.) Be there for them, and if you are able be there for them when they do, if they do, decide to run. Give them the safety net they so need.

Do I know everything there is to know about abuse? No I do not. I do know a little bit about it having been involved with it in several ways and cases. There is much that I yet have to learn. Then again there is much about this subject that all of us either individually or as a society need to learn.

I personally do not tolerate abuse, and I personally will be un-PC and step in. I have done so on several occasions, sometimes to my detriment. I never regret it though. (Then again my views about abuse are more than well known here on this board.)

Cat

I'll back you up, Cat.

Loathe abusers.

rgraham666 said:

I'll back you up, Cat.

Loathe abusers.

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Loathing is a good word for how I feel about it. (I would say hate, but I do not allow myself to hate.)

In my mind I am honor bound to step in.

There have been several people whom I have informed that they have a safe place at my house. Two have taken me up on that. One saw just how I react to an abusive spouse when her husband showed up one night.

If I had my way the abusers would be punished in an appropriate manner. (Again this is very un-PC)

Cat

Sometimes, a woman can be blindsided by it. Meaning, it seems to come out of nowhere. Now, it's doubtful that it really did come out of nowhere. I'm sure there were little signs, but she didn't see them. By the time she was blindsided with it, she had so much time invested and still loved the man. Add in children and finances and you've got a woman who is confused and has nowhere to go.

Can abuse be a one time thing? Can a man have just "lost his temper" that one time and acted without thinking? Does it always turn into long term abuse? Those are answers I'd like to have.

CrimsonMaiden said:

Sometimes, a woman can be blindsided by it. Meaning, it seems to come out of nowhere. Now, it's doubtful that it really did come out of nowhere. I'm sure there were little signs, but she didn't see them. By the time she was blindsided with it, she had so much time invested and still loved the man. Add in children and finances and you've got a woman who is confused and has nowhere to go.

Can abuse be a one time thing? Can a man have just "lost his temper" that one time and acted without thinking? Does it always turn into long term abuse? Those are answers I'd like to have.

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Crimson,

There are many who would say that a man or woman losing their temper is a one time thing. It may be, but I have a hard time dealing with this idea.

You would have to prove to me that it is just that, a one time thing.

Then again I have very strict ideas about abuse.

Cat

SeaCat said:

Crimson,

There are many who would say that a man or woman losing their temper is a one time thing. It may be, but I have a hard time dealing with this idea.

You would have to prove to me that it is just that, a one time thing.

Then again I have very strict ideas about abuse.

Cat

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Therein lies the rub. The person involved in that sort of situation would have no way of knowing if it was a one time thing. Either it happens again, and they know or they are forever waiting for the other shoe to drop. Hell of a place to be.