The Real World: I'm confused

Please help me out here, as I'm still an observer and outsider trying to understand.

When Dom/sub/slave questions are asked, I usually see a great deal about "mindset" and emotion here--things are said like, "total submission," and "ultimate trust," and "responsiblity for emotional & physical health," and "surrending responsiblity," as well as "developing the person." All to explain the D/s relationship. But I rarely see any real world examples of what this means or how it's done. For example, are we saying that the sub/slave does all the housework, yardwork, garagework? Do they fix the car and do the plumping as well as grocery shopping and changing the lightbulb?

What if they hold jobs as well? Not all Dom's can be filthy rich--so if the sub also works, how are they to get all this service done for the master as well? How can the sub make NO decisons if they're to do any of this? Decide how to put the dishes in the dishwasher? Pick out the goceries? Or does the Dominate make out the grocery list?Does the Dom control all finances? Even if the two aren't married?

At what point is the decision too small for the Master to make? At what point is it too big? At what point is family or a lawyer going to step in because the Dom is managing the sub's finances and family/lawyer is alarmed that this non-wife/husband/relative is doing that?

I hear about the Dom making the rules, but what rules? How many rules and about what? What value is it to the "growth" and development of the sub if they can't go to the bathroom without permission? How does a Dom develop the personality of anyone if that person's primary lesson is to be ever more dependent on the Dom to make all decisions for them? What are they growing into?

Mind you, I'm not criticizing, I'm just confused. Everyone says the Dom is the teacher taking the sub places they never would have gone before--but if the joy of being a sub is pleasing and doing what they're told, then how are they being taken anywhere they don't want to go? Don't they want to go simply because someone wants them to go there? What have they learned outside of pleasing the master...yet again?

What if the Dom makes a truely horrible mistake? I imagine the sub will continue to trust them and forgive them, that being the sub's nature--but how can the Dom get over that? And how about the Dom...do they really like being that totally in control? If it's time to go out to lunch--is the place they go always the Dom's decision? I'm pretty selfish and controling, but sometimes I do like to get ideas from others and experiment. Do Doms like being with someone who never offers an opinion, who always says, "Whatever you want, Master"? Do they like being asked by someone if they can take a piss? Is the Dom is always the center of this universe...don't they get a little lost in their own head?

And what about other real-life issues? If the sub isn't a husband or wife, and they get sick and go to the hospital--who takes care of them? How can the Dom see them in the hospital and help them? If the sub has to come home and be taken care of...who takes care of them?

Can anyone give me a real-world, real-life, day-to-day example of how the D/s relationship works? Because, outside of the bedroom, it rather confuses me as to how it's at all different from any other relationship.

I think what you're describing is quite rare. Not a lot of people I've talked to have actually given up total control of their lives to another person... I mean, you can give yourself to them by keeping in mind what they want, what they need, what the ground rules for a relationship are... but no, not everyone is a stay at home 24/7 slave.

The scenario's you're brining up seem to me to have come out of erotic fiction... what real life examples can you give me of this happening at all? Where are you getting your information on these relationships? Perhaps before you start struggling to understand what seems like an extreme, you should understand how rarely it occurs... just my thought.

Some relationships are part time, some 24/7. Either way it's a relationship as any other. Whether married or single and invovled you trust, respect and maybe love. But as said earlier, it is a rare relationship where one gives total, unconditional control to another. If I was a submissive or slave I wouldn't. As a Dom I don't want that total control.

About your first set of questions. There aren't any hard and fast rules that everybody or even lots of people follow. Each couple does what works best in their specific relationships and circumstances. Those circumstances include practical things such the health of the two people involved and what their family obligations are (kids, etc.), and other stuff such as what level of control they desire in the relationship, and how their personalties interact. Lots of control does not always equal lots of slave work for a submissive, although it could. Hundreds of factors, different for each couple, go into answering each of those questions. In a relationship where the dom has all the control he or she decides who does what and also decides how much he wants to decide for both of them.

The family/lawyer stepping in is a non-issue, IMO. It's very easy for a couple who wants no nosy or hostile outside interference to hide their relationship from the world. Some families are trustworthy and open-minded, and they tend to get told. Lawyers won't question their clients private spousal decisions, if they want to keep their clients.

If some doms make a truely horrible mistake, you're right, they often never get fully over it, in that they never forgive themselves for not seeing the right choice to make. But that doesn't stop them from continuing to live a fulfilling and loving life with their submissive partner.

Doms do what they want. They control at the level most comfortable to them, and if they are compassionate and love their submissives, at a level that the submissive can tolerate. If they want the sub to choose the dinner venue, they'll order her to do so (or, if they're feeling more generous, offer her a choice). Sometimes the sub will take him up on it, sometimes not. My dom liked to offer me choices. He liked giving me things and seeing me happy. But he wasn't the type that offered unlimited choices. Instead of "pick any place in the city to eat at," he'd say, "OK, you can decide between Resturant 1, Resturant 2, or Takeout 3." He controlled the field, in other words. A choice was given me but it was limited to the things he wanted me to choose from. That was just his style, he liked control a lot. Other doms have other styles. When given a choice, I seldom, if ever, said "whatever you want, master." That wasn't my style. While overall I didn't miss decision-making or self-control one bit, I still appreciated occasional opportunities to choose and took full advantage of them.

Doms make rules because they like them and find them erotic (having a sub humiliate herself by asking to piss every time she felt the urge might be an example of that sort of rule) and also because they're good for the sub or for the relationship (an example of the second might be to prohibit a dangerous or destructive act, for instance, a "no smoking" rule). What does not going to the bathroom without permission have to do with personal growth and development or lack thereof? You could very well say that your own rigid self-rule, say, to floss your teeth every day, is turning you into a mindless robot and doormat and inhibiting your growth and development. See what I'm saying, lol? Humans have brains and they don't magically lose those brains out their ears just because they perform numerous routine or mandatory acts such as asking to pee or flossing their teeth!

Center of the universe. While my dom was always in control, he put me and my care at the center of his universe. Again, that was his particular style. YMMV. Sometimes this embarassed me or made me feel uncomfortable or selfish, but I didn't have much choice in the matter, it was the way he chose to do things.

"How does a Dom develop the personality of anyone if that person's primary lesson is to be ever more dependent on the Dom to make all decisions for them? What are they growing into?"

I hate saying this because it sounds like such a cop-out when someone says it to me, but some things just have to be experienced to be understood. The best I can explain it is that when you grow up a submissive in this sort of culture you are fucked on both ends. Not only do people more aggressive and less emotionally sensitive and vulnerable than you take advantage of you and hurt you in all kinds of ways but you're virtually forced to adopt this paradigm of the strong, independent woman. You're supposed to want something that's anathma to who and what you truly are inside and hate and despise the traits that are genuinely you. Most submissives are not in very good shape by the time they reach adulthood. Growth, for them, frequently consists of learning--viserally, NOT intellectually--that who and what they are is OK and even very good in the context of their relationship, that they don't have to wear their fake pretend "I'm always in control" outside persona all the time, they can let the mask down, relax and be themselves. Once that relaxation occurs within a nurturing dom-sub relationship, then long-buried talents and abilities, interests, desires, passions start to come to the surface because there is finally emotional room for them. Every little sqare inch of one's emotions are now not spent trying to pretend to be someone you never were and never could be so you could "pass" and "function" in the outside world that excepts you to be anything but a submissive. A submissive cannot do this kind of growth on her own usually. She needs a dominant figure to give her permission to relax and be herself, and to reassure her that everything will be all right and the sky will not fall down if she does. That's often what is meant by growth, but again, it often has to be directly experienced before you realize its immense liberating power (by liberating I mean it frees the submissive to be genuinely happy, often for the first time in her life). Other times, "Taking the submissive where she would never go on her own," refers to limits-pushing and pain/humiliation play.

Very often a submissive does not want to go where a dominant wants to take her, particularly if the dominant is good at emotional healing, because the hard things he requires her to do to get better, require her to change in very scary ways. Submissives often dig their heels in and resist such growth. Their resisitance to change and its eventual overcoming is often quite painful for both parties. It's not a clean smooth road that is travelled.

What have I learned outside of pleasing my master? Oh my god, how do I begin? He taught me literally thousands of things that I never would have known and never would have learned on my own, through the close association of a servant-master relationship. While in a vanilla relationship, all that is required is that you love your partner, in a master-slave relationship (some dom-sub relationships are master-slave, some aren't), a submissive needs, in addition to deep, passionate love, to be with someone she respects, looks up to, admires, even worships. Someone the submissive thinks can teach her things. You can't easily submit to a man, even if you really like him, if you see him as a weak-willed child. You can easily love such a man in a vanilla relationship, however. I did once.

About the hospital: you'd be surprised at how good some dominants are at getting into places that they aren't supposed to be able to get into. When I had to visit him there, it was much later in the relationship and we were married and that made things much easier for me. But when I had to go to the hospital at various times and we were not married, he always found a way to be by my side and supervise my care. He just didn't let anything get in his way. You ever meet someone who won't take no for an answer? I'm not saying he was violent, he never needed to be. He had hundreds of ways of getting what he wanted in the ordinary world and the will to persist until he got what he wanted. He taught me a few of them, and they serve me well now that he is gone.

You don't lose your ability to function as an adult when you're somebody's slave. You do get used to somebody making all the decisions and the emotional peace that this blissful state offers, but if you have to do it again, you can. It's like riding a bicycle or driving a car--even if you hate to do it, when you have to, you get right back on, and ride it. All the old skills are still there.

My master was benevolent and very patient. He gave me a lot of rope in some areas where I was sensitive because he sensed I personally needed that. He was extremely controlling in other areas, because we both liked his exercising that control: it's the essence of sexiness. Had I been a different sort of person, he would have shorted that rope, possibly, or loosened it. Hard to say, each person is different. Our relationship worked very simply: he owned me. He told me what to do. I did it. If I didn't like it, I was _required_ (hard rule never to be broken) to talk to him about it. This method worked extremely well for us for all the years that we lived together. But again, it worked because of who each of us was and what we brought to the relationship. Other dom-sub relationships, other people, require or desire other approaches.

nice post slutacus.

very nice post slutacus

Slutacus should write a book^^^^^^

Shush you all! You are embarrassing me!

I just finally ran into some questions on here I could actually think of an answer to.

a book i say. best bdsm seller.

Slutacus said:

Shush you all! You are embarrassing me!

I just finally ran into some questions on here I could actually think of an answer to.

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Well you gave a very complete and well thought out answer! One of the best I've seen by far.

caela said:

Well you gave a very complete and well thought out answer! One of the best I've seen by far.

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i have to agree.

Slutacus,

Thank you for your long and thoughtful reply. It really was fantastic, and I'm very grateful that you took the time to write such a deep, open and detailed response. it really did clear a few things up, this most particularly:

Slutacus said:

Most submissives are not in very good shape by the time they reach adulthood. Growth, for them, frequently consists of learning--viserally, NOT intellectually--that who and what they are is OK and even very good in the context of their relationship, that they don't have to wear their fake pretend "I'm always in control" outside persona all the time, they can let the mask down, relax and be themselves. Once that relaxation occurs within a nurturing dom-sub relationship, then long-buried talents and abilities, interests, desires, passions start to come to the surface because there is finally emotional room for them.

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That makes a great deal of sense to me--if the sub is then allowed to display their talents, abilities, interests, desires, etc. My confusion was that it *seemed* as if the two were opposite. As if the slave/sub were surrendering interests and desires, bowing entirely to the will of the Dom--and therefore, anything that arose out of the relationship to the sub's benefit (talents, abilities, interests), would be, logically, moot.

Obviously, that's not usually the case. But I think you can see from people's posts that there's rarely any concrete evidence that the sub does anything other than obey the master. Thank you for clearing up some of the confusion.

sassy kitten said:

I choose to put my trust, and love into my Master/Mistress' hands. Trusting them to do the right thing, to not abuse the control they have over me, to keep them, as well as myself happy (not specifically in that order).

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I don't think subs are cattle, but it's hard to understand what they are if no one ever gives any concrete examples of what rules they follow or why. All we outsiders end up knowing is that you worship and trust the master and do what they say. This is all we ever hear.

I'm especially confused about what is it subs are willing to DO for Doms that's any different from anyone else in a loving, trusting relationship. Okay. So you trust them. I trust my husband. Hell, if he turned up one night with a body in the trunk of the car and said, "Help me bury this!" I would. I'd probably ask him if he'd covered his tracks, and help him to do that as well.

I mean, I love, adore, worship my husband. If he said, "Do this for me and don't ask questions--" Yes, I would, and trust him not to abuse that right he has to ask that of me. But I KNOW we're not in a D/s relationship. I know that I would ask for an explaination later and I know he'd give me one, and we'd talk about it, and we'd discuss what was best for the two of us, and if I had a good idea, we'd go with that.

Can you give me anything CONCRETE from your relationship to show me how it works--how YOUR trust of YOUR master is any different from MY trust of my husband? What rules has your master set that you follow? What do you get (feelings? growth?) when you follow these rules?

All this talk of absolute trust, worship and obedience tells me why you do what you do, but not WHAT you do.

I have a husband who's generally a submissive personality who's also a bottom. He's not formally "a submissive" though. As in, he does the things he's persuaded to do because I want him to and he pushes back when he doesn't want my influence to extend to a certain point. That point is always kind of shifting, though, which is what I find kind of interesting and poignant and worthwhile about the whole thing.

I also have a slave, who I am not married to.

The rules are remarkably simple.

He's there to make me happy and serve my interests.
He's to be generally respectful at whatever level of formality and protocol I feel like having at a given moment.
If I don't want to pay attention to him and use him at a given moment, oh well.

Luckily, I'm attentive and sadistic and I usually do want to use and abuse him in some delightful way, but that's an issue of trust and hope on his part, not obligation and anticipation and assumption.

Now, this doesn't preclude personality. In fact without it, someone would never be useful as a slave to me, because there's an intimacy in ownership that requires I like the person and appreciate his/her talents and interests. It's futile to try and force someone towards things that make them miserable and limited. I try and bring out the interests, abilities and facets.

Concretely what are some of the things H serves as?

Porter, computer guru, fashion consultant and professional shopper (he's a big sissy and good at it) punching bag, coffee companion, chaperone, chauffeur, cuckold, cleaner, crisis management, shoulder to cry on, footstool, fucktoy, furniture and friend.

Can you give me anything CONCRETE from your relationship to show me how it works--how YOUR trust of YOUR master is any different from MY trust of my husband? What rules has your master set that you follow? What do you get (feelings? growth?) when you follow these rules?

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First off, I just want to make clear, there is a difference between BDSM and D/s. BDSM pertains usually to ONLY the bedroom, while D/s in in fact a way people run their lives. Someone who is a Top/bottom, is only a 'Master/submissive' in the bedroom, it's not who they are, it is in fact what they do. You can love (beyond all reason) being a Top/bottom every single day, for the rest of your life until you die, but it's not who you are. It's simply: what you do. To be a true Master/Mistress, there is a level of respect and expectation for his/her submissive, and vise versa.

Being submissive isn't something you do, it's someone you are. Examples of rules could be simple: I was to wear my collar, any and every time I went out. Or they could be as follows: I was not to talk to anyone he/she didn't know, or allow me to talk to. Or maybe I had to have an elaborate dinner prepared, a clean house, and kneeling at the door when my Master/Mistress arrive. They can set limits on how much time I were to spend watching television, or even what activities I was allowed to participate in. He/She could assign me chores, give me a list to complete by a certain time. But it's not fair to me, to give me impossible tasks to complete. I'm not a super hero, I don't have magical powers to make things so. The tasks should be somewhat reasonable.

There is no hand-book to what a Master/Mistress does/says etc. There aren't steps you can follow, there isn't a 'D/s For Dummies' book out there to tell you exactly what every single D/s relationship is like, what they do, how they feel etc. One key, doesn't fit every single lock. Sometimes the key is completely different, sometimes just the slightest modification will fit. It all varies. I do, whatever they tell me to do, but that doesn't mean they will make me ask when I want to breath or not. If I'm bleeding, I don't have to sit and wait for them to tell me I can get a bandage. You've got to be reasonable. Sure, they can tell me what way to arrange the dishes in the dishwasher, but why would they, the dishes are getting washed, bottom line.


Having limits is what makes me feel at peace, in a way I have more freedom, I don't function correctly, rather - I need someone who is in charge to make me whole. To balance out my submissive nature I need a Master/Mistress. I feel a sense of great joy when I obey my Master/Mistress. I feel as if, I've done something spectacular, something amazing, every time I see the joy, the pleasure in their eyes, and their smile. I grow and learn what pleases him/her, and in turn, learn my own true happiness, learn more about what makes me, me. I shape myself into something better, more knowing of myself with my Master/Mistress as a guide.

It is impossible, for me to experience joy, if my Master/Mistress is in pain or depressed. We are one single being, his/her pain, is inflicted three fold on me. In turn, they aren't a leech I am inclined to feed. They need to respect me, just as much as I respect them. I think that's the part you seem to confuse Master/submissive relationship is different from a Master/slave relationship. A slave isn't inclined to be respected, they don't have a say or an opinion. But as a submissive, I've got just as much heart, voice and opinion as my Master/Mistress does. I can just as easily voice, even shout my opinion to someone, stand up for what I believe in. Now what I believe may not walk hand in hand with my Master/Mistress, but they have to respect that, just as I will respect and treasure their dreams and aspirations.

The only way I can boil down what I'm trying to say is this- my Master is everything your husband is for you, and then some. I get to have my cake, and eat it too. I can try to explain it to you, but you'll never understand it because it's not who you are. D/s has every single part of a vanilla relationship, every single part, and much more.


Ask yourself how much do you love your husband? One? Eight? Twelve? Can you explain just how much, can you tell me what number? What is love, and what does feel like? Explain to me what the color red is.

There is no possible way to quantify emotion, how something makes you feel, without experiencing it yourself.

sassy kitten said:

Ask yourself how much do you love your husband? One? Eight? Twelve? Can you explain just how much, can you tell me what number? What is love, and what does feel like? Explain to me what the color red is.

There is no possible way to quantify emotion, how something makes you feel, without experiencing it yourself.

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I apologize if I sounded, in any way, as if I was getting into a "who's lifestyle is better" discussion. I never meant what I said to sound that way. I might as well try to argue who's religion feels more "enlightening" and transforming to those practicing it. A useless argument if there ever was one.

The whole point of my request was to get us away from the emotions to the concrete.

I understand that as most of you are talking to other folk who are part of the religion, and so you don't feel you need to offer examples. You don't need to say, "this is what we do in our mass...." you just say, "When we say this prayer at mass, I feel such joy!" and everyone else says, "yes, we feel that, too."

But I'm a foreigner, an alien. I come in peace. And I'd like to understand because I feel understanding not only leads to insight into you, but insight into other people who haven't admitted these feelings, and insight into myself, and insight into the human race.

I certain can't explain what I feel for my husband any more than he can explain what he feels to me--and I'm his wife. So, you're right, I'm not going to understand your feelings. But I WANT to understand. I really, really, really do. Honestly, truely, and with all the respect in the world. I want to understand. As much as anyone who is not a submissive can understand--which maybe be an infintessimal amount. I don't expect to ever, ever, ever really get there. Very much like I'll never understand how much a nun loves Jesus Christ.

And I understand, I really, really, really do, that all relationships are different. All have different rules and limits, etc. Fine, clear, understood.

But when I see post after post that offers no real-live or real-world examples...then it's rather like listening to a nun say, "Jesus is love, when I pray, I love Jesus." Okay. But what is the life of a nun like? What is the life of this PARTICULAR nun like of this PARTICULAR order. If I can understand the lifestyle, get a glimpse into just *some* of the things the nun does--even if I know that her order isn't the same as every other order--then...well, I'll at least understand what she is willing to do to show her devotion. I'll understand what life she needs to lead to feel that devotion. And I'll be able to feel, if not the devotion, then at least the kneeling, the chanting, the charity work.

And maybe, just maybe, I'll get the tinest hint of what it's all about. Or maybe not. But I'm certainly not going to get anywhere near to it if you shut the door and say, "I'm not giving you any hint at all of what I do or how I live--you're just going to have to trust me that it involves me doing what the master says and that this is wonderful."

If you don't want to share any real-world examples, fine, I understand that, too. All I'm trying to say is that as an alien, an outsider, it helps me if there are some real-world examples mixed in with all the talk of feelings and beliefs. You can tell me that a Catholic believes God is Love, but I'm still going to want to know what a Catholic does during mass. If you give me nothing concrete, then I'm going to end up with confusion and misconceptions. If you give me something concrete, then at least I won't make worse mistakes than I'm already making.

That's all.

Netzach said:

I have a husband who's generally a submissive personality who's also a bottom. He's not formally "a submissive" though. As in, he does the things he's persuaded to do because I want him to and he pushes back when he doesn't want my influence to extend to a certain point. That point is always kind of shifting, though, which is what I find kind of interesting and poignant and worthwhile about the whole thing.

I also have a slave, who I am not married to.

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Netzach,

Thanks for the concrete examples. They really help. Can I ask one thing--how does your slave fit into the household--how does your husband regard him? Does he have anything at all to do with your husband--or is the slave outside the family home entirely and never interacts with your husband?

"I certain can't explain what I feel for my husband any more than he can explain what he feels to me--and I'm his wife. So, you're right, I'm not going to understand your feelings. But I WANT to understand. I really, really, really do. Honestly, truely, and with all the respect in the world. I want to understand. As much as anyone who is not a submissive can understand--which maybe be an infintessimal amount. I don't expect to ever, ever, ever really get there. Very much like I'll never understand how much a nun loves Jesus Christ."

Why do you want to understand this so much?

While reading this thread I realize how difficult it is to understand, from the outside, the true meaning of a D/s relationship.

3113, I encounter the same difficulties you express to grasp the whole of what these relationships are, to encompass all the implications of unions that go way further than 'spank my ass, please'. And I have tried, and have asked, and have discussed, and read, and have argued...

I've come to believe that some are... detailed for a D/s relation, some for BDSM, and the rest of the world for vanilla...

Nevertheless, I must confess that, althrough I'm neither involved in a D/s, nor a BDSM relation, I'm still attracted, repulsed, puzzeled (puzzled?), fascinated by this strange world... And I'm not able to explain why.

sassy kitten said:

I was just answering what you asked, you wanted to know how it felt, I took the quote from you. But I did kind of smudge off on WHAT it is I do, so I hope this helps...

The day in the life of me, is I do what I'm told, no questions asked. I complete them using 120% of my effort. If I'm told to jump, I will ask how high. I do whatever I can, whenever I can, for whatever reason, to please my Master/Mistress. The only way I can really know you understand is if you experience them yourself, honestly, not just the emotional part, but, HAVE someone TELL you what to do. Not ask, but order, and if said task is not completed, there should be consequences. But not for just a day, but for an extended period of time, have someone send you to complete errands, tell you what you can't or can do. Put limits on your life however they see fit. Remember, they've got to respect you, just as you respect them. What I'm trying to get at, is, you can't exactly learn what D/s is, it's either in you, or it's not.

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This is -really- well put.

I am not sure it's possible to understand if there's not at least a little part of you that likes it. It's similar, to dampen down your own analogy, to asking someone why they like to eat broccoli. They just -do-. Why does someone like to listen to country/punk/classical music? They just -do-.

Why does someone like to live in a household where someone else makes the rules, sets the plans, and organises your life for them? They just -do-.

I don't think that anyone is trying to be evasive, or secretive. I think all of us here understand that we're trying to describe something indescribable. I don't think anyone faults anyone else for wanting to understand, though, either. We're trying to explain it, just as hard as you're trying to understand!

First, I want to join the Slutacus fan club. That was very well said. I'd like to add that these issues arise not only from the outside, but within a D/s or BDSM relationship. People typically enter these relationships with lots of preconceptions about relationships in general and BDSM in particular, and many of these ideas are simply horseshit. In my experience, it's not unusual for a submissive to have exactly the kinds of fears and perceptions detailed in the OP, while at the same time craving (often in a deeply hidden place) exactly what Slutacus describes. Much of the problem comes from the nature of kink-oriented fantasy, but at least as much comes from the 'normal' expectations people grow up with.

I think of D/s in terms that have, kinky sex aside, much in common with traditional views of marriage (but without being pre-determined by gender). Where many in BDSM accentuate the power dynamic between top and bottom, I tend to see D/s as redefining the boundaries of the individual. The submissive does not disappear or become merely an appendage of the dominant, but rather the two become facets of a larger entity. As parts of a single organism, it's reasonable that they specialize- you wouldn't want your kidneys competing with your heart for the right to pump blood. Nor would you want to have only kidneys and no heart.

It has always seemed odd to me that contemporary ideas of marriage stress a meeting of 'equals', but never discuss in what way people are supposed to be equal. They certainly aren't the same, which is what equality means, and to suggest that they should be treated the same seems intensely unfair to me. D/s is a structure that recognizes some of those differences and seeks to make them strengths for the relationship rather than obstacles.

3113 said:

Netzach,

Thanks for the concrete examples. They really help. Can I ask one thing--how does your slave fit into the household--how does your husband regard him? Does he have anything at all to do with your husband--or is the slave outside the family home entirely and never interacts with your husband?

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My slave and my husband are quite errr....friendly with one another. There's some sexual and romantic interaction across those lines.

Marry someone you have something in common with right?

We both like older men.

Purple Sage said:

First, I want to join the Slutacus fan club. That was very well said. I'd like to add that these issues arise not only from the outside, but within a D/s or BDSM relationship. People typically enter these relationships with lots of preconceptions about relationships in general and BDSM in particular, and many of these ideas are simply horseshit. In my experience, it's not unusual for a submissive to have exactly the kinds of fears and perceptions detailed in the OP, while at the same time craving (often in a deeply hidden place) exactly what Slutacus describes. Much of the problem comes from the nature of kink-oriented fantasy, but at least as much comes from the 'normal' expectations people grow up with.

I think of D/s in terms that have, kinky sex aside, much in common with traditional views of marriage (but without being pre-determined by gender). Where many in BDSM accentuate the power dynamic between top and bottom, I tend to see D/s as redefining the boundaries of the individual. The submissive does not disappear or become merely an appendage of the dominant, but rather the two become facets of a larger entity. As parts of a single organism, it's reasonable that they specialize- you wouldn't want your kidneys competing with your heart for the right to pump blood. Nor would you want to have only kidneys and no heart.

It has always seemed odd to me that contemporary ideas of marriage stress a meeting of 'equals', but never discuss in what way people are supposed to be equal. They certainly aren't the same, which is what equality means, and to suggest that they should be treated the same seems intensely unfair to me. D/s is a structure that recognizes some of those differences and seeks to make them strengths for the relationship rather than obstacles.

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I don't think that an ideal of equality necessarily means conformity. It means equality of valuation, it means understanding that the larger whole you talk about is as dependent on part A as on part B and recognizing that.