Relationship issues and Communications

We've recently seen a bunch of postings which can all be boiled down to communications problems. Despite all the recent advancements in communications technology in the past 30 - 50 years, we seen to be losing the ability to really talk to people.

So I thought it might be appropriate if people share thier methods for really talking to thier SO. I'm not referring to which bill to pay, or who will pick up the kids, but the real important issues concerning the relationship. Since so many of these posts deal with a basic issue of communications, I thought it might be a good idea to talk about talking.

For example I hate bringing up conversations about sex. Mostly because in my mind, it always sounds like I am complaining. Whining about "we don't have sex often enough" isn't going to improve the situation, its only going to irritate the person you're trying to talk to. Such initimate conversations are uncomfortable for me, I'm afraid I'll say something wrong and it will be taken as an attack, or I'll make myself sound like I want to treat her as a sex object instead of a living person or I don't care about her feelings.

We still have those conversations despite the butterflies in my stomach and the queasy "I want to hurl" feeling.

Sometimes I'll put it in an email. Email is such a wonderful tool for communicating, AND because it doesn't have the immediacy of reply that a face to face conversation has, you have the chance to weigh your words, consider thier message and impact, and edit them to say what you want to say. Email allows you to start off a face to face conversation about something important without being confrontational about it.

So here's the thing. ASSUME you have a significant relationship issue which is bothering you, your SO has no clue and you want to talk about it. It doesn't matter what the issue is about, sex, money, putting the toilet seat down, etc. How do you go about bringing up a sensitive topic without hurting feelings? Share your methods, what thoughts go through your head just before you start that conversation? What methods have worked for you and what hasn't?

Bobmi, there is no need for me to assume here. Like you I have the tee shirt.

We have used email somewhat effectively, for the very reasons you listed. Since we are both very careful about word choices, even in conversation, sometimes email gives us the chance to "get it right the first time."

A number of years ago we started a practice of always spending an hour or so together just to talk, on Wednesday nights. It was the middle of the work week so any pressures we felt from having been apart or more stressed than usual, were less than they would have been by the following weekend, and we weren't any where near as tired as we usually are by Friday night. That worked fairly well (at least for the things we were talking about at the time) and we have tried to re-start this practice.

Disclosure time: it still takes courage and some communication skills to take advantage of this kind of arrangement. Despite having had these regular talks for several years, we still need them, and for things we should have addressed back then (12 years ago). You have to be willing to bring up the topics that make you feel like hurling, and you need to be able to listen with attention. My wife and I both find it very easy to fall into the habit of barely listening to the other while planning what to say next. It comes in part from that need to get the words right. So if this is a problem for you, such communication will be a challenge. Not impossible, but a challenge.

Many Times!

I will write myself a letter to carlify things in my head first!
If I have something that has hurt my feelings and I don't want to cry and make him feel bad. I write it down first, cry and get my feelings out. Then I feel better about talking to him about it, so I don't make him feel bad.
I write feelings down a lot and keep a journal. Every year on our aniverisary we share our journals and a list of things that makes us happy! It is a very intimate experience for both of us. Sometimes you really don't know the little things that make them happy!

*sigh*

the easiest way for me to put my ex to sleep, was to say something along the lines of "i think we need to talk" or "there's something i think we should discuss".

guaranteed he'd fall asleep in the chair after only 3 minutes.
like anything that came close to communication was just so difficult to do, it caused his brain to shut down.

either that, or if he did fight his way through the somnolence and actually listen and participate in a conversation, then he'd expect sex as his reward for being such a good communicator.

communication between partners is a great concept - but the reality is that after a while, life tends to change one or the other, and things never stay as good. sooner or later, one partner doesn't feel like doing the communication thing any more.

thank god i'm outta this one.
that's 2 down, and celibacy looming.

Well I know one thing that I had to make a real effort to quit doing was deciding the hubby and I needed to have our " talks" at 11:00 at night. I was trying to make certain we could talk openly, without worrying about the kids overhearing, or trying to get dinner on the table etc. etc. I thought it was a good idea. What I failed to realize however is that the single worst time to approach my husband with an issue is right before he's ready to go to bed. I could never figure out why the discussion always dissolved into a screaming match until I realized that I was taking over his down time and bombarding him at the end of the day when he thought he was going to have time to unwind.

Hubby for his part has realized that the worst thing he can do is agree with me just to end the arguement, discussion, whatever. That telling me what I want to hear and then doing the exact opposite will only make the next fight a hundred times worse. He is also starting to realize that I'm not the only one who can initiate a conversation when something's not right between us. That waiting until we're in the middle of a fight to bring something up rarely brings him the results he wants.

We have both realized that if we are going to fight we need to make it about the issue at hand and not drag in every unresolved arguement from the past. That we shouldn't say " Be honest with me" if we're not prepared to really deal with what the other has to say. That we need to pick our battles, and be prepared to stick to our guns even if the other partner isn't seeing things our way. Don't stew on something just to avoid a possible confrontation, since in the end it always comes up and you only get angrier and angrier about it. Walking away from an unresolved arguement only makes it that much easier to get into another one in our house.
We still get into it sometimes and there are plenty of times we still avoid a conversation for fear of it turning into a fight, but we do try and learn something from every one of them so that in the future we can actually talk rather then fight.

Re: Many Times!

delitednu said:

I will write myself a letter to carlify things in my head first!
If I have something that has hurt my feelings and I don't want to cry and make him feel bad. I write it down first, cry and get my feelings out. Then I feel better about talking to him about it, so I don't make him feel bad.
I write feelings down a lot and keep a journal. Every year on our aniverisary we share our journals and a list of things that makes us happy! It is a very intimate experience for both of us. Sometimes you really don't know the little things that make them happy!

Click to expand...

The journal idea is a new one to me. I suppose you aren't talking about a diary where you also talk about some guy's cute butt you saw on the bus.

I never felt the need to write things down in a journal, but I suppose it would serve a purpose in sharing it with your SO, so long as the SO also keeps a journal.

Very good topic, Bobmi.

I can't write too too much right now as I am quite tired and not thinking terribly clearly, but I will say that one thing that Mr K and I have agreed upon is that we never talk about any problems we are having in the bedroom, in the bedroom, if you see what I mean. Also, the time for discussion is definitely while we are both clear-headed and sober, not if either of us has had a drink or two.

Re: Re: Many Times!

Bobmi357 said:

The journal idea is a new one to me. I suppose you aren't talking about a diary where you also talk about some guy's cute butt you saw on the bus.

I never felt the need to write things down in a journal, but I suppose it would serve a purpose in sharing it with your SO, so long as the SO also keeps a journal.

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It's actually a pretty common couples therapy method when 2 people can't sit down & articulate without one falling asleep or going off the handle or whatnot for a therapist to have both partners write things out in "letters" and exchange them
It's less elaborate & time consuming than the journal thing and can help get the words flowing

Re: Re: Re: Many Times!

James G 5 said:

It's actually a pretty common couples therapy method when 2 people can't sit down & articulate without one falling asleep or going off the handle or whatnot for a therapist to have both partners write things out in "letters" and exchange them
It's less elaborate & time consuming than the journal thing and can help get the words flowing

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unless, despite the recomendations of the therapist, one partner thinks it's a waste of time.

then it does no good anyway.

everything the therapist recommended was dismissed - as was everything else that might possibly have worked.

btw, he used to fall asleep no matter what time i brought this subject up - morning, mid-morning, noon, afternoon, evening, night...... made no diff.

looking back, i should have cut my losses and left the first time it happened - but i stuck with it, thinking if i put in the effort, i could salvage my relationship.

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warrior queen said:

unless, despite the recomendations of the therapist, one partner thinks it's a waste of time.

then it does no good anyway.

everything the therapist recommended was dismissed - as was everything else that might possibly have worked.

btw, he used to fall asleep no matter what time i brought this subject up - morning, mid-morning, noon, afternoon, evening, night...... made no diff.

looking back, i should have cut my losses and left the first time it happened - but i stuck with it, thinking if i put in the effort, i could salvage my relationship.

Click to expand...

Was your ex clinically depressed or manic depressive?
Sleep is a common escape mechanism in both conditions, and when confronted with something unpleasant or something they don't want to/can't deal with, they retreat in to sleep

Re: Re: Re: Re: Many Times!

warrior queen said:

unless, despite the recomendations of the therapist, one partner thinks it's a waste of time.

then it does no good anyway.

everything the therapist recommended was dismissed - as was everything else that might possibly have worked.

btw, he used to fall asleep no matter what time i brought this subject up - morning, mid-morning, noon, afternoon, evening, night...... made no diff.

looking back, i should have cut my losses and left the first time it happened - but i stuck with it, thinking if i put in the effort, i could salvage my relationship.

Click to expand...

WQ, the situation you're describing is a sad one, indeed.

I think that Bobmi is looking for ways to improve communication where both partners are willing and interested in making improvements. I hadn't ever considered a journaling solution before, but I can see it working as long as both partners write in their journals regularly and honestly and share them periodically. It might even be easier for some people to record their thoughts in a journal format than in a letter or email, as letters and email seem to require us to have a topic at hand and reach a conclusion. Journals could be much more free-flowing.

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James G 5 said:

Was your ex clinically depressed or manic depressive?
Sleep is a common escape mechanism in both conditions, and when confronted with something unpleasant or something they don't want to/can't deal with, they retreat in to sleep

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yes, he was diagnosed as manic depressive - but this was a while after this pattern began to emerge.

and for the record, i tried every single thing i could think of, while working within the limits of his illness, as well as suggested things from other sources, and i failed anyway.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Many Times!

warrior queen said:

yes, he was diagnosed as manic depressive - but this was a while after this pattern began to emerge.

and for the record, i tried every single thing i could think of, while working within the limits of his illness, as well as suggested things from other sources, and i failed anyway.

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Sweetie, it wasn't YOUR failure
If you're with someone who has that problem and he or she won't seek help or actively work to improve things, there's NOTHING you can do
I speak from experience here
So stop beating yourself up over it, k?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Many Times!

midwestyankee said:

I think that Bobmi is looking for ways to improve communication where both partners are willing and interested in making improvements. I hadn't ever considered a journaling solution before, but I can see it working as long as both partners write in their journals regularly and honestly and share them periodically. It might even be easier for some people to record their thoughts in a journal format than in a letter or email, as letters and email seem to require us to have a topic at hand and reach a conclusion. Journals could be much more free-flowing.

Click to expand...

Actually I had hoped that people would use this thread to list what worked for them and why. Sort of a "Try this and report back" thread for the basics of communicating with your partner.

My thought was everyone is different, so we all approach the same problems from slightly different venues. Listing them and talking about them would provide a resource to the people that come in here and start asking all sorts of questions when they are really asking "How do I bring this topic up with my partner?".

Bobmi357 said:

Sometimes I'll put it in an email. Email is such a wonderful tool for communicating, AND because it doesn't have the immediacy of reply that a face to face conversation has, you have the chance to weigh your words, consider thier message and impact, and edit them to say what you want to say. Email allows you to start off a face to face conversation about something important without being confrontational about it.

Click to expand...

If you've found something that works for you and your partner, more power to you.

Having said that ... I've found that e-mail is deceptive when it comes to building and maintaining relationships. E-mail is firmly rooted in the belief that what you have to say is more important than listening to what your partner has to say. Obviously you want to be understood, or you wouldn't be trying to communiate, but it's a matter of human behaviour.

The first thing that people do when presented with someone's argument, rational, explanation (pick one) is tune out what the 'speaker' is saying and start formulating their response (or defense). E-mail makes this even more disastrous by letting it happen without any feedback to the 'speaker'. E-mail cripples communication by stripping away the most fundamental features that effective communication is built on; body language, tone of voice, eye contact, and most importantly interactive dialogue. E-mail capitalizes on the same principle that my favorite authors use, namely my imagination, to fill in the blanks. I don't like others filling in my blanks ;-)

Effective communication starts with effective listening. The most effective communication that I have with my wife begins when I understand how she feels about an issue. Sometimes she’s not even aware that there is a problem. I need to communicate the issue first and then give her time to figure out how she feels before letting her know how I feel. Knowing her emotional investment gives me a clue to where the middle ground is, and gives me an opportunity to evaluate how far I want to push an issue. If we don’t see eye to eye, then I try to understand her view of the problem and her view of my emotional investment in the issue. That, in turn, lets me focus on the differences between her view/feelings and mine. At times she already knows them, and feels guilty about not being on the same page with me. In those cases, it does more harm than good to hammer them into her again.

Other’s have given a personal example, so I will too. When we talk about sex, I try to figure out how her daily grind and the decisions we've made are affecting her. I think (having read this board and other sources) that our choice of birth control is one factor in our mismatched libido’s. She took charge and went to her OB/GYN and explored her options. Having had a disastrous attempt at using an IUD, and still possibly wanting children, our options are limited. Saying “I want more sex” is irresponsible given that I already know that her sex drive is the result of decisions we’ve made together. There are times when she’s chomping at the bit to get naked, and there are others when the kids have her frazzled and sex is out of the question. We've worked our way to "somewhere in the middle", where she’s willing to give sex a try even tho she’s not ‘turned on and tuned in’. To meet me half way we agreed that if sex doesn’t work out then we enjoy the emotional intimacy of the moment. Sometimes after a little low pressure luvin' she gets all fired up and enjoys herself. Other times, it just doesn't happen. During those times, it’s my responsibility to know when it’s time to cuddle up or say goodnight.

midwestyankee said:

<snip>Disclosure time: it still takes courage and some communication skills to take advantage of this kind of arrangement.<snip>

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Sadly the ability to communicate effectively is often a learned skill, and some of us are better at it than others.

For some being able to talk and make yourself understood clearly in what can often be a stressful and delicate situation is just plain hard.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Many Times!

Bobmi357 said:

Actually I had hoped that people would use this thread to list what worked for them and why. Sort of a "Try this and report back" thread for the basics of communicating with your partner.

My thought was everyone is different, so we all approach the same problems from slightly different venues. Listing them and talking about them would provide a resource to the people that come in here and start asking all sorts of questions when they are really asking "How do I bring this topic up with my partner?".

Click to expand...

and my contributions have been made simply to show that no matter what a person learns about the art of communicating with a partner - unless BOTH are willing to put in the same effort, it is doomed to fail.

it's all very well and good asking the questions in a forum such as this, but unless your partner comes in and reads it all and contributes, then the communication issue could very well remain exactly as it is right now, no matter what you learn in here.

Re: Re: Relationship issues and Communications

pplwatching said:

Having said that ... I've found that e-mail is deceptive when it comes to building and maintaining relationships. E-mail is firmly rooted in the belief that what you have to say is more important than listening to what your partner has to say. Obviously you want to be understood, or you wouldn't be trying to communiate, but it's a matter of human behaviour.

Click to expand...

In our particular case, and mind you, we don't resort to email all that often, its merely used as an opening for the conversation.

Most of the time we sit down and just start talking. But I wouldn't discount email out of hand. It does provide an avenue to present your opinion in a calm manner.

One of the things that my wife gets pissed off the most about me is that I don't really fight. I only once ever saw my parents have a fight that involved yelling. Other than that one time, my family life was fairly routine and dull. But it has translated into my refusing to get involved in an argument which includes yelling. If I see my wife is mad and wants to yell at me (and while I probably deserve it ) I tell her when she's calmed down we'll discuss it. Then I walk away leaving her to work through her anger and approach the problem rationally. It drives her nuts because her home life DID include yelling.

Fights, begun in anger, rarely get solved to both parties satisfaction. My first wife believed in yelling and throwing things like a 3yr old having a tantrum. And none of those fights ever got resolved. EVER. It is possible to have a disagreement over an important topic without yelling. Email helps to start that conversation if its worded carefully enough to avoid inciting anger. So does talking at a reasonable volume and in a non-accusatory manner.

I won't say we don't fight, everyone fights, but whenever possible I will go out of my way to prevent a topic from inciting a fight.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Many Times!

warrior queen said:

it's all very well and good asking the questions in a forum such as this, but unless your partner comes in and reads it all and contributes, then the communication issue could very well remain exactly as it is right now, no matter what you learn in here.

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I think you're taking the high road. I think at the core of what you're saying is the fact that this person didn't see the relationship as valuable and worth maintaining. I'm sorry that you got emotionally trampled, but were there signs that he didn't have the same investment in the relationship that you did?

You really have to know what constitutes a win for the the person you're communicating with before you invest all of your energy rolling the rock up the hill. Did the counselors focus on his view of the problems (if he had any) and his idea of a successful resolution?

In hindsight, is there a place where you knew that he didn't value the relationship as much as you did? If you could go back, would that have been the place to walk away?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Many Times!

pplwatching said:

I think you're taking the high road. I think at the core of what you're saying is the fact that this person didn't see the relationship as valuable and worth maintaining. I'm sorry that you got emotionally trampled, but were there signs that he didn't have the same investment in the relationship that you did?

You really have to know what constitutes a win for the the person you're communicating with before you invest all of your energy rolling the rock up the hill. Did the counselors focus on his view of the problems (if he had any) and his idea of a successful resolution?

In hindsight, is there a place where you knew that he didn't value the relationship as much as you did? If you could go back, would that have been the place to walk away?

Click to expand...

lol - yeah!

in hindsight, there were many times when i should have just walked away.

but somehow, the lessons about 'making the effort' and 'working on the issues' kept coming forward in my mind, so i stayed.

now that i am a much wiser person in the manipulative ways of some people, i will be sure to never go into another relationship without first making clear what my expectations are, and i would hope i am also wise enough to find someone who will do me the same courtesy.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Many Times!

warrior queen said:

but somehow, the lessons about 'making the effort' and 'working on the issues' kept coming forward in my mind, so i stayed.

Those are two very important qualities to bring to a relationship.

i would hope i am also wise enough to find someone who will do me the same courtesy.

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I think it's great that you didn't finish your post by saying that you wouldn't do that again

Not to hijack the thread, but being wise enough goes along with realizing that you *deserve* courtesy and respect. IMHO a good way to figure out how someone will treat you whent he chips are down is to look at the way they treat people around them. From their mother to the waitress or bus boy in a restaraunt, if they're courteos to others they'll be more so to you.

If more people approached relationships by examining their goals and those of the folks they date, they'd be happier in the end.

Good luck!

Re: Re: Relationship issues and Communications

pplwatching said:

If you've found something that works for you and your partner, more power to you.

Having said that ... I've found that e-mail is deceptive when it comes to building and maintaining relationships. E-mail is firmly rooted in the belief that what you have to say is more important than listening to what your partner has to say. Obviously you want to be understood, or you wouldn't be trying to communiate, but it's a matter of human behaviour.

The first thing that people do when presented with someone's argument, rational, explanation (pick one) is tune out what the 'speaker' is saying and start formulating their response (or defense). E-mail makes this even more disastrous by letting it happen without any feedback to the 'speaker'. E-mail cripples communication by stripping away the most fundamental features that effective communication is built on; body language, tone of voice, eye contact, and most importantly interactive dialogue. E-mail capitalizes on the same principle that my favorite authors use, namely my imagination, to fill in the blanks. I don't like others filling in my blanks ;-)

Effective communication starts with effective listening. The most effective communication that I have with my wife begins when I understand how she feels about an issue. Sometimes she’s not even aware that there is a problem. I need to communicate the issue first and then give her time to figure out how she feels before letting her know how I feel. Knowing her emotional investment gives me a clue to where the middle ground is, and gives me an opportunity to evaluate how far I want to push an issue. If we don’t see eye to eye, then I try to understand her view of the problem and her view of my emotional investment in the issue. That, in turn, lets me focus on the differences between her view/feelings and mine. At times she already knows them, and feels guilty about not being on the same page with me. In those cases, it does more harm than good to hammer them into her again.

Click to expand...

The pitfalls you mention ARE valid
But all too few people know how to, or are WILLING to, listen effectively.
And we're not talking about building relationships in many of these cases.
The scenario I mentioned for writing letters, which could also be for sending e-mails, is more for long term couples who have anger & resentment built up to a degree where they cannot sit & converse without getting angry or degenerating in to old & unproductive arguments. In THOSE cases, it can be an effective strategy.

accept that there is a problem- which means if one person sees a problem, it is a problem.

agree to jointly solve the problem.

set a time to discuss the problem, doesn't have to be immediately, sometimes just know that your partner understands that there is a problem and will make time to discuss it helps diffuse things a lot.

understand the problem, why this is a problem. have both people explain their understanding of the problem until they both understand what the problem is (not how to solve it, whose fault it was, ect... just what the problem is) Stay on the problem no kitchen sinking, if this brings up other problems, write them down for later.

brain storm ideas to solve the problem, they don't have to be feasible, don't think about feasibility at this point, just get lots of ideas and write them down.

take some time out from each other to think about the problem.

Come back and consider solutions to the problem. keep at it until you find a mutually agreeable solution.

I find the hardest part of most problems is understanding them and being willing to work on solving them.

In some relationships people do not have enough respect for each other to accept there is a problem when they don't feel it is a problem for them. That is a basic level of respect that is missing and they need to solve that first before specific problems.

Noor who appears to have caught James' long winded rant thing. hopefully for its just a 24hr bug.

Re: Re: Re: Relationship issues and Communications

James G 5 said:

The pitfalls you mention ARE valid
But all too few people know how to, or are WILLING to, listen effectively.
And we're not talking about building relationships in many of these cases.
The scenario I mentioned for writing letters, which could also be for sending e-mails, is more for long term couples who have anger & resentment built up to a degree where they cannot sit & converse without getting angry or degenerating in to old & unproductive arguments. In THOSE cases, it can be an effective strategy.

Click to expand...

Working through a total breakdown of communication is beyond the idea of this
thread, but even that assumes that both of the people involved are really willing
to listen and find common ground (and not just play act it).

I agree that writing things down is a great way to organize your thoughts, and
even to find where the common ground is. It's not clear what value you see that
makes it an effective tool for communication beyond that. At first glance it
appears that what you are describing is a crutch for people who are more focused
on winning arguments than {re}building a successful relationship. "Let me tell
you why I'm right, why you should see it my way, and why you're wrong" are all
ways to grind communication to a halt. You can't beat an opinion into someone
any easier by writing it down. Writing it done just gives the other person an
opportunity to ignore you without being confrontational about it.

Can you elaborate?

Noor said:

Noor who appears to have caught Jame's long winded rant thing. hopefully for its just a 24hr bug.

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That didn't sound like a rant to me, just good advice