Did I come on too strong (editor seeking editing advice)

Hey forum people! Long time reader, first-time poster.

I signed up about a week ago to be a volunteer editor. I have a Bachelors degree in English, which I've noted in my bio. Eventually, I'd like to find freelance work as a copy editor/proofreader, and until I can secure funding to go back to school, I thought that volunteering here would give me a chance for some much-needed practice!

An author reached out to me asking for help. Their story had great bones, but there were some issues with readability and flow. In the contact email, they asked specifically for spelling and grammar checks, continuity errors, checking point-of-view, and passive voice issues. I agreed to do the work, and they sent me several chapters of a story they were working on. I use Google Docs, so they were able to see notes and changes as I went.

I got about half-way through a piece before stepping out for dinner. When I came back, the stories had been deleted. I had previously asked the writer if they had questions or comments about the feedback I was giving them, but there was no email or communication about what happened.

I'm worried that I came down too hard. I tried to offer helpful suggestions and give some writing advice based on what I've learned, and I don't think I was rude or particularly preachy, but I know that sometimes I can get carried away. I've done work with other writers who have reached out, and so far the feedback has been positive.

I am nervous about reaching out to the writer - I need feedback to be able to improve my skills, and I can handle constructive criticism, but I don't handle aggression or anger well (thanks, anxiety).

Is there any way to have an experienced editor review my editing and make sure I'm not going overboard? Or, is there an editor out there that would be interested in doing some mentoring?

I’ve edited stories for writers who have accepted my grammatical and punctuation corrections. We’ve not always agreed on my suggestions from proof reading but that’s up to them because it’s their story.

I’ve also edited for others where it hasn’t been so easy. One very prolific writer approached me but after a short time it became obvious they wanted my story ideas. Someone else wouldn’t accept/discuss any suggestions/corrections I made so that ended before their story was completed. Another writer wanted to send me their version, have me rewrite it, and then submit it as all their own work.

I can understand it’s annoying when someone breaks off contact without any message but some people are like that in life generally. But I think they are in the minority and not cut out for being a writer. They will submit their story and no matter what the rating believe they are right and you, and the other readers, are wrong.

I don’t know how anyone else does it but I always go through a story correcting the mistakes first and then read it as a story to make any suggestions. But I always make it clear any suggestions are only the way I would write that sentence/passage and it’s up to them whether or not they accept it.

They can terminate the relationship any time they want and not necessarily do it in a nice way, as both you and I’ve discovered, but remember you have the same right. But from reading your post I think you would be ladylike and polite about it.

I'm not an editor, but I have BS in POV...

Writers don't always know what editors know (otherwise they'd be an editor). That said, I used to know a publishing house editor who said something that resonated with me: "As an editor, you have to weigh what you think is wrong, against what you think may be style." Is that common knowledge? I don't know, I'm not an editor.

I don't know google docs, but is it possible they weren't aware how google docs works, or maybe they didn't have the app installed, and thus they waited an approximate amount of time, never signed in for about a week or whatever length, came back and saw a half edited story and thought "That's all she is going to do, so I might as well take the story off google docs"?

Maybe they thought you weren't moving fast enough. Did you give them a timetable of when you expected to be done with it? I remember one editor told me they'd be done in one week. Four weeks later, and never a word from them...

One thing I remember from college, is that you should never tell someone how to fix something they wrote. Tell them parts you think are wrong, but don't "correct" it, because then you become the creator.

Hi Tasha,

Firstly, I hope that this experience will meet your goals of prepping for later work as an editor! There are many new writers joining this site each day with hopes of writing and publishing, and most that want an editor lament that they can’t find one.

If you’d like a second look at your feedback, you can PM me. But I strongly suggest that if you are interested in getting feedback, you contact the writer and just ask him/her why s/he pulled the story. There could be many other reasons than that your advice was disheartening. But if it really turns out that’s the case, I’d nonetheless suggest looking at it objectively for whether s/he is giving you useful information or being thin-skinned. The latter is always a possibility; this is a free, self-publishing erotica website, so it’s understandable that a new author may feel smarted at having his/her fanstasy critiqued.

I did my BAs and JD at Ivy-League schools where I had to do tons of analytical writing, and I do a fair bit of technical writing for work. I write erotic fiction for fun, and I proof and betaread because I like to help other writers. I’ve edited for approximately a hundred different authors in the past six months, and turned down at least twice as many because I keep a small queue. When I proof and betaread, I provide feedback on grammar, semantics and “readability” of an author’s choices. I do nearly 100% of both my own writing and editing and feedback for others on my iPhone, and use Google Docs.

Nearly 100% of the writers I’ve worked with accept nearly 100% of my grammar feedback: I try to give detailed explanations of the grammar rules broken, why they matter and how to correct them. Writers are always glad to have that feedback, even when they’re disappointed by it. Only a couple of writers have chosen to ignore such suggestions for authorial reasons.

About 75% of writers accept my semantical feedback, even though it is just as detailed and instructive as my grammar/syntax feedback. But only about half of writers I’ve worked with accept my suggestions about their writing choices: readability, flow, character development, sex scenes, pacing, logistics/believability, etc. Most writers accept it gracefully, but a handful of writers have been insulting or passively aggressive about the feedback, or made it a point to let me know that, in short, they have a poor impression of my analysis, or think I’m uninformed or off-base. Imho, it’s doubly insulting to get that kind of pushback and then for said writer to nonetheless use my feedback. Regardless, when I get such responses, I simply remind the writer that the story is their own, my suggestions are merely opinions and that s/he is free to do whatever they’d like. And then, I move on to work with the other authors I enjoy, and on my own stories.

If you yourself have a thin-skin and anxiety about your advice, I’d strongly suggest using this as an opportunity for growing a thicker skin. I’d encourage you to keep in mind 1) that you’re doing this as a volunteer and 2) your personal, professional objectives deserve priority. You are not the one soliciting help; you’re responding to anonymous people online who’ve reached out to you to get your very valuable time and knowledge completely for free!

Sometimes, people with anxiety may assume that other people know better or more than they themselves, or that their own opinions/expertise aren’t good enough. I’d suggest using this volunteer editing as a time to build yourself up emotionally. As a professional editor, you’ll need that protective armor and you’ll need to stand up for your expertise. Most writers here are a delight to work with and very grateful for and receptive to any help. I’d encourage you not to waste your time and talent chasing down people who don’t understand the value of what you offer.

Hope this is helpful!

Vix_Giovanni said:

Sometimes, people with anxiety may assume that other people know better or more than they themselves, or that their own opinions/expertise aren’t good enough. I’d suggest using this volunteer editing as a time to build yourself up emotionally. As a professional editor, you’ll need that protective armor and you’ll need to stand up for your expertise. Most writers here are a delight to work with and very grateful for and receptive to any help. I’d encourage you not to waste your time and talent chasing down people who don’t understand the value of what you offer.

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What Vix said. There is a dearth of editors here (let alone editors with any actual training...) so if you don't click with one particular author, there are plenty others who will gladly take your help.

People get weird about erotica. Some people get self-conscious about their work and delete it every time a fit of guilt overcomes them. Some people ask for an "editor" when what they're really looking for is a cheer squad. Don't go overboard trying to guess the reasons of a stranger on the internet; that way lies madness.

If incidents like this become a pattern across multiple authors then it would be worth looking for feedback on your editing style. But if it's just a one-off, it's quite likely that it comes down to that one author's foibles and isn't about you.

Not that I'm any kind of editor, but over my time here I've had a lot of people, usually in the I/T category, ask if I'll look over their story and give some advice/opinions etc...

My style is to always lead with some positive stuff, but then I'll mention a few things that stand out as needing some work. I'm never snarky and I try to tread lightly.

Here's what I have learned, and a situations like the OP kind of make it seem like its true.

I'm not sure that everyone looking for help wants it. I have come to feel they are looking for 'wow, that's amazing, don't change a thing" I don't think they want to see a lot of red and make the corrections, I don't think they want inconsistencies pointed out to them.

I've had more than a few people who asked me for my time and opinion come back with various versions of 'what do you know?" and once or twice in a fairly nasty way.

I see this in the endless gripe threads about negative feedback. "Joeyballsac67
is a genius when he tells them best story ever but he's an illiterate fuckwit troll when he says he didn't like the story.

Guess my point to the OP is don't worry about it. More often than not the skin is thin in these parts.

Non-professional editor's opinion.

I've only edited two stories thus far, mainly for grammatical, spelling, and contextual errors. Personally, I don't try to rewrite a story. I don't feel that it is my job to rewrite someone else's story. I will reword sentences and phrases from time to time as many of the authors here will write stories that take place in the US when they are not natives of this country and english may not be their first language. That said, don't give up. Like others have said, try to get in touch with the author and find out for sure what happened. If you can't get in touch then just move on and find another author that you can assist.

A little off topic, but ...

As an author I always insist on working with a volunteer editor using Track Changes in MS Word (or Google Docs, if they don’t have Word). The process is too tedious and ego-bruising to go through using more primitive methods. Consequently, I filter out any VEs who don’t have MS Word document as an acceptable format before I read through the profiles.

Now the issue of Word vs Google Docs and .doc vs .docx formats is one that would require a separate thread, so I’ll just say that I never saw your VE entry because you didn’t have that checked as a format you could work in. So if you can edit in Google Docs, I’d suggest adding the MS Word format to your VE profile and then address any compatibility issues with the author after they make their initial contact.

PS: I could be going blind, but I don’t see any mention of your BA in English in either your VE profile, Lit user profile, or your Forum profile – not that I’d use the lack of those credentials as a deal-breaker.

madam_tasha said:

Hey forum people! Long time reader, first-time poster.

I signed up about a week ago to be a volunteer editor. I have a Bachelors degree in English, which I've noted in my bio. Eventually, I'd like to find freelance work as a copy editor/proofreader, and until I can secure funding to go back to school, I thought that volunteering here would give me a chance for some much-needed practice!

An author reached out to me asking for help. Their story had great bones, but there were some issues with readability and flow. In the contact email, they asked specifically for spelling and grammar checks, continuity errors, checking point-of-view, and passive voice issues. I agreed to do the work, and they sent me several chapters of a story they were working on. I use Google Docs, so they were able to see notes and changes as I went.

I got about half-way through a piece before stepping out for dinner. When I came back, the stories had been deleted. I had previously asked the writer if they had questions or comments about the feedback I was giving them, but there was no email or communication about what happened.

I'm worried that I came down too hard. I tried to offer helpful suggestions and give some writing advice based on what I've learned, and I don't think I was rude or particularly preachy, but I know that sometimes I can get carried away. I've done work with other writers who have reached out, and so far the feedback has been positive.

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Hi, madam_tasha. You haven't replied to the PM I sent last week, so I'll post my thoughts here instead.

Editing another writer's work can be a minefield. Will they get upset about something you suggest? Should they? It requires a delicate balance. As an editor I try to sprinkle praise for specific items amongst specific suggestions for items that could be improved. I might even try rewriting a particularly troublesome passage, sometimes with multiple alternatives, not as a "you must do it this way" directive but more as presenting ideas to spur the author's creativity while respecting the author's authentic, unique voice. I've had authors use entire suggested paragraphs verbatim, which felt pretty weird, and had the same author reject other advisements entirely, but most often what happens is that my suggestions get incorporated into a new synthesis that's more interesting than either original. I regard anything I give to an author during this process as theirs to use as they please.

My experience with volunteer editors on this site has been decidedly mixed; some have wanted to change a piece I sent their way into something completely different, others have tried to inject their own sociopolitics or have been straight-out insulting without reading much at all, or quick to anger and insults when they misrepresent what was written and this is pointed out to them, even when they obviously went to some trouble both to look over a piece and to formulate comments intended to be (and mostly were) helpful, and received profuse and sincere thanks for their efforts. This is an occupational hazard with erstwhile editors, it seems.

madam_tasha said:

I am nervous about reaching out to the writer - I need feedback to be able to improve my skills, and I can handle constructive criticism, but I don't handle aggression or anger well (thanks, anxiety).

Is there any way to have an experienced editor review my editing and make sure I'm not going overboard? Or, is there an editor out there that would be interested in doing some mentoring?

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I would let it go if I were in your place, and be happy that you offered helpful thoughts in good faith, even though it might've been nice to be thanked for doing so. If it helps, I'll thank you on that author's behalf, because the kind of help you offered freely is invaluable!

Authors here are volunteers, just like editors, and as such can be unreliable and even touchier. They are not required to take your advice, just as you are not required to offer it. Specific suggestions you might take away (my opinions only, based on what has worked well for me in the past):

1. As I mentioned in my PM to you last week when offering to look over what you might contribute as an editor against an original piece,

As an editor, I strive to read the piece in context: many genres (Edgars, Hugos, RITAs) have their own awards, because good works in those genres would never be judged fairly by a one-size-fits-all reviewer/editor using mainstream criteria. So I strive to fit my feedback to the form the writing was intended for.

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2. Read the piece carefully. Immerse yourself in it if you must, committing to it as much as the author while always knowing that it's the author's work and not yours, that they own it and you don't, and you must always be ready and willing to let go. That can be difficult for some. What was the writer trying to communicate? This should usually be clear, but if it's not, some clarification questions and/or suggestions can help. If the writing befuddles, ask the author to clarify it for you, then find a way to suggest ways their clarification could be applied to the piece.
3. Misspellings, other typos, and tense are the easiest things to fix, and almost any author will accept those suggestions with thanks, especially when they've requested help. If a piece is particularly afflicted, maybe limit your initial feedback to that, because more can feel overwhelming. I view it like peeling layers back, as if from an onion. It's not even worth my time as an editor to try working through deeper issues with a piece if there are a lot of easier things to fix first.
4. Compliment things that work for you! A turn of phrase, an unexpected development, a significant moment, don't make it just about criticism. As with the previous point, this can also help to establish a trusting, appreciative relationship with the author.
5. Discontinuities are a slightly more complex issue. Is something a character does later in a piece inconsistent with something they did earlier? Is Time being given its due? (Dan & Dave, I'm looking at you!) This seems especially common in longer pieces. Likewise, fact-checks by subject matter experts; does an author have one sailing ship ramming another with intent to sink it, or a muscle car with "chairs" rather than seats? If so, s/he'd better have a good reason.
6. Voice and extra words. Minimize passive voice, maximize active voice. Watch for unnecessary repetition. I agonize over every word in my writing, but that may be a personal choice not everyone needs to make; I like to be succinct. Minimize use of the word "that" and commas. Minimize dialog tags. Lately I've been more conscious that whenever "and then" appears, one of those two words is probably unnecessary. Whenever someone is "starting to" do something or is "about to start to", just do whatever that something is. Active voice! Elmore Leonard helps, but I think every one of his "rules" has exceptions.
7. Grammar and syntax are more complex still -- people get attached to their own unique style (I'm one), and the line between studiously correct usage and style can be fuzzy.
8. Once you're past the nuts and bolts you get into the space where professional editors operate: Flow, timing, character, dialog, exposition, tone. This is where you, the editor, need to be as fully invested in the work as its author. At least, that's how it has worked for me. This is where you can help an author turn something technically competent into something good.
9. Don't feel insulted if a writer accepts part of what you suggest rather than all of it. You are not the roadblock between a piece and its publication that a professional editor can be, you're just interested in helping, as a volunteer. Did your review help the piece? That's the real takeaway.
10. Because editing for me is a real commitment, I won't take something that I don't already like. I try to read another finished piece by that author if possible, to let me know what's possible, just as I expect them to read something of mine, so we both know what we're getting into. Stuff that's rough but has real merit is my favorite -- drastic improvement is fairly easy, and further improvement is possible. The result to my own writing can be electric.
11. Conflict of some sort is inevitable between a writer and editor. Accept that if you want to be an editor. It's how you manage the conflict that's most important: frame it for yourself as something other than conflict. Assume the best, especially when communicating through a keyboard -- at some point the best thing to do in the event of a misunderstanding is talk, but in this environment you probably won't have that opportunity. So, strive to not be misunderstood, and ask for clarification if something your author says might seem undervaluing.
12. I view the editing process as requiring more than one pass. Misspellings, typos, and other mechanics first, if necessary, with an invitation to re-read when the piece has been revised to address those issues. Then go deeper, then deeper still until you're happy with the result. Don't try to get it all done on the first pass.

Note that it's difficult for me to mix editing and writing. The last time I went deep, it screwed me up as a writer for several months, and I've only recently recovered. For me it's like playing ping-pong and tennis or speaking German and Dutch, when I'm good at one, dabbling in the other can just screw up what I'm already good at, because they're similar but different. That's another balance to find.

Best wishes,
-MɛtaBob

Note: I've edited this rather heavily since first posting it, treating it as a living document. I hadn't tried detailing my editing process before, and figured it might be helpful to do so, both for myself and others who might have very different but similarly effective processes.