Serious question about God

cantdog:
I do fine without God.

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--Good. Stay the way you are.

SNP:
I truely feel that God cares less about what we believe, and more about what we do.

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--Wow. I agree with you.

Dr. M:
If God is so petty that he sends people to hell for being homo or fucking or smoking dope, then He can just kiss my ass, and you can tell Him I said so. Any God who's so hateful isn't worth anyone's respect.

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--Agreed as well.

somewhere I read a story once where someone was asking god how he could allow all of these terrible things to happen here on earth and god's reply was something like- "your right there- what's *you'r* excuse."

Ok, I don't remember the exact wording but the point is, blaming God for things that are wrong with the world is just a way to avoid responsiblity. We all have a responsibilty to the world we live in (especially IMO, if we beleive in God)- just like we have a responsibilty for our own lives. (yes, I said it- a liberal said we have a responsibilty for our own lives!!! ) We live in the world, we are a part of it, what we do makes the world more or less of whatever we put into or take out of it. It's like sitting in the bath water- if you pee in the bathwater, you're sitting in pee! If you pour in rose hips your sitting in rose hips. It's your choice. Don't pee in the bathwater.

not that this is related to praying. but it is related to 'walking your walk' Is it harder to sow a smile and a kind word than a scowl and a cruel one? Remember that we reap what we sow. It's *harder* sometimes to change ourselves than to change the world (or I should say, easier to see what's wrong with the world and complain about it or get upset about it). But in the end, the only thing we *can* change is ourselves, and by changing ourselves we *do* change the world.

And the old monk hit the old monk in the back of the head, and the young monk was enlightened.
lol, there's your zen thought for the day, courtesy sweet.

sweetsubsarahh said:

So - I'm asking. Why pray?

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I pray to give thanks for the blessings in my life. I might add, not to any patriarchial Christian monothestic god, either.

LT

I love my patriarchal Christian monotheistic God. His works are great. His Creation wonderful. His love entirely reassuring.

Joe Wordsworth said:

I love my patriarchal Christian monotheistic God. His works are great. His Creation wonderful. His love entirely reassuring.

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Hello Joe - good to see you.

I wish I could be as certain about matters as you. For one, I do not find His love entirely reassuring. Instead, I feel unimportant, betrayed and forgotten.

I expect to feel insignificant in the face of such omnipotence. But I find myself feeling completely alone.

And it isn't pouting, as one church member wanted to know. No, it's just profound sadness about it all. And it's not exactly where I imagined I'd be at this point in my life.

sweetsubsarahh said:

Hello Joe - good to see you.

I wish I could be as certain about matters as you. For one, I do not find His love entirely reassuring. Instead, I feel unimportant, betrayed and forgotten.

I expect to feel insignificant in the face of such omnipotence. But I find myself feeling completely alone.

And it isn't pouting, as one church member wanted to know. No, it's just profound sadness about it all. And it's not exactly where I imagined I'd be at this point in my life.

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You need to take a journey inside of yourself sweetie. You'll find answers there.

Joe Wordsworth said:

I love my patriarchal Christian monotheistic God. His works are great. His Creation wonderful. His love entirely reassuring.

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Amen Joe

Sarahh, I truly believe you're questioning, searching quest for answers is a good thing. You've got to think and question and find your faith.

I know that alone feeling,I do, that "are my prayers just hitting the ceiling?" feeling and it is heart-achingly sad. My solace always comes via songs of worship and the ensuing prayer.

I don't want to sound cliche, but just about every follower in the bible had to go through a desert time, just look at poor'eld Job for a start.

God is there for you, I know it, I feel it and I know you will find him soon. I know it, deep in my heart.

As Blackie Says, you just have to do some more searching, and then suddenly it'll hit you, you've never been alone. He's been with you all along.

Just yell if you ever want to chat, I sure as hell don't have all the answers, but I'll pick up my torch and see if I can help you find'em!

DrFreud said:

Quoting Gibran's "The prophet":

Then a priestess said, "Speak to us of Prayer."

And he answered, saying:

You pray in your distress and in your need; would that you might pray also in the fullness of your joy and in your days of abundance.

For what is prayer but the expansion of yourself into the living ether?

And if it is for your comfort to pour your darkness into space, it is also for your delight to pour forth the dawning of your heart.

And if you cannot but weep when your soul summons you to prayer, she should spur you again and yet again, though weeping, until you shall come laughing.

When you pray you rise to meet in the air those who are praying at that very hour, and whom save in prayer you may not meet.

Therefore let your visit to that temple invisible be for naught but ecstasy and sweet communion.

For if you should enter the temple for no other purpose than asking you shall not receive.

And if you should enter into it to humble yourself you shall not be lifted:

Or even if you should enter into it to beg for the good of others you shall not be heard.

It is enough that you enter the temple invisible.

I cannot teach you how to pray in words.

God listens not to your words save when He Himself utters them through your lips.

And I cannot teach you the prayer of the seas and the forests and the mountains.

But you who are born of the mountains and the forests and the seas can find their prayer in your heart,

And if you but listen in the stillness of the night you shall hear them saying in silence,

"Our God, who art our winged self, it is thy will in us that willeth.

It is thy desire in us that desireth.

It is thy urge in us that would turn our nights, which are thine, into days which are thine also.

We cannot ask thee for aught, for thou knowest our needs before they are born in us:

Thou art our need; and in giving us more of thyself thou givest us all."

-----
Good luck with your quest Sarah.

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That is a brilliant, beautiful and (for me) helpful post, hope it helps Sarah too.

sweetsubsarahh said:

I expect to feel insignificant in the face of such omnipotence. But I find myself feeling completely alone.

And it isn't pouting, as one church member wanted to know. No, it's just profound sadness about it all. And it's not exactly where I imagined I'd be at this point in my life.

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This was always my problem with the monotheastic omnipotent god. If you're so damned powerful, when why don't you use it? Ever see a film called, "Bruce Almighty" I'm not a Jim Carrey fan, but it puts many theological concepts to test, which I always enjoy.
I'm a pagan, specifically, I worship the Earth Mother. Only when I turn my back on her do I not feel her prescence. I'm learning to not do that - that's my failing, the failing of humanity.
It sounds to me like you're having a crises of faith, and I'm sorry for that. Faith is a precious gift, and to temporarily mislay it, well that can't be fun. I've done it a couple of times myself.
Sometimes, all I can do is give thanks in my life, for all of the things in it, especially the bad things. Without the bad things, we don't realize how precious and fragile life is. It may seem like a silly thing, but if you give thanks to the whole, and not just the good, it does something inside when the bad things happen.
I had a small kitten come into our life a couple of months ago. In two weeks, he had died. We weren't sure why, but we cried and cried and cried. All I could do was thank the mother for the life that we had shared together, and then cry some more.
My hope for you is that your faith will return - in whatever form you choose.

Brightest Blessings,
Caroline Tigeress

LadyTigeress said:

This was always my problem with the monotheastic omnipotent god. Caroline Tigeress

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I don't believe, any more, in an omnipitant, omniscient god, although, I do believe that god is *is* everything, and I do believe in a cosmic plan.

During a crisis of faith, it might be a good idea to question some of your assumptions about god. (if you're so inclided, look into what other cultures believe/d about the divine). When I was younger, I thought that any god who wasn't *all good* *all knowing* and *all powerful* wasn't really a god. Now I tend to think that there are probably more than one divinity and they are less than perfect, but they ballance each other out. I'm not saying everyone should believe that, but it works for me. I'm a big believer in questioning your own beliefs and assumptions, and the things we've learned since the cradle that we simply take for granted.

I'll read anything about religion, even websites by people so overthe top that even the fundy's think they are crazy. (no offense fundies ) I read the pamplets that the Jahova's Witnesses leave. It doesn't mean I agree, but it expands my point of view and gives me knew ways of looking at the same stories and verses that I always assumed *meant what i was taught they meant*- if this makes any sence. It's hard to see an alternative interpretation when you've already been told what it means- it seems so obvious to you that it means just that. It's an eye opener to see what others think it means. Eventually, you break your old habbits of seeing what you've been told to see, and can see and interpret for yourself. (and find meaning for yourself) It's healthy, IMO.

You are searching, and questioning and that's ok. Church (particulary your regular church) may not be the right place for you, because they will push you to believe what they want you to belive, and it's something you have to find for yourself. You may need to look at things from a different perspective, such as gnostic, pagan, buddhist, catholic and/or a different denomination. I firmly believe that if your old path was the right one for you, you will find your way back to it. (remember the prodigal son?) I completly disowned christianity for a while, but now I find myself being pulled back toward it in some ways. Not the same as before, but in a new way, with a better appeciation for certain things, and a whole new understanding of it.

2 cents

Hello, this is my first time.

To start, I'm an Xian, unapologetically. I would agree with G. K. Chesterton: "Christianity hasn't been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." I'm skeptical that there's such a thing as "pure Christianity", or even that this concept is terribly relevant for a seeker, including myself. I would not lay blame to any broad group of believers (such as Catholics, Southern Baptists, Jews, Muslims, etc) for sins of their past, except fanatics who have always been warped by their lack of compassionate vision. We have always been human, and that's always been painful. Ideals are important, but they never trump compassion or other's dignity.

I don't believe that God is Santa Claus, a micromanager, or a lawyer, no disrespect to anyone practicing those avocations. I believe that there are many ways to pray and that all are good. Some ways fit some of us better than others.

I don't have enough faith to be an agnostic or atheist; I can't believe that this wonderful universe is an accident of any way, shape or form. I think that Wittgenstein's question: "Why existence?" is valid, and one that can teach us much. I also believe that shit happens and God's biggest job is helping us to cope with it. If you think omnipotence is a good thing, watch "Bruce Almighty" (although I'm not a Jim Carrey fan, either).

I believe that separation from God, or sin, is based ultimately in blind selfishness, and that Pride is the doorway to living in sin.

I think we have to look backward and forward, be quasi historians and scientists, but we live in the present. God is outside of time, and surely only "present" applies to God.

I believe that God is first of all Love; we get into huge trouble when we misdefine what love is. If it doesn't start there, then we're wasting our time. I believe that God loves us as we are, warts and all, unconditionally, and will let us make free choices out of love, despite the fact that it can be painful for all concerned at times. I believe that we say "Yes" to God through our actions more than our words.

I believe that prayer isn't how we work on God. I believe that effective prayer in whatever form: words, actions, contemplation, is how God works on us.

N.D.
Intergalactic Wanderer

I posted some thoughts on a new thread because I couldn't find this one. Here are some of the highlights:

Fear is to courage what doubt is to faith." Fear is not the opposite of courage, nor is doubt the opposite of faith. Courage requires us to face our fears just as faith requires us to face our doubts, but neither courage nor faith eliminate our fears or doubts. I think it was Anne Lamott who said that "Courage is fear that's said its prayers." It might reshape our fears, clarify, readjust our stance, but despite all the courage in the world, we'll still have some level of fear. If you've got doubt .... that means you're asking the question.

Yeah, I teach religion. But I don't care whether the kids agree with what I'm presenting them or not. They do need to be able to tell me what the Catholic Church believes about Jesus and the gospels and whatever else, but they don't have to subscribe to it. Wherever they are is where they are, and that's completely, utterly, and totally fine by me. My only requirement is that they remain open to the journey, ask the questions, and explore for themselves.

After all, isn't that what it's all about? The journey, the quest, the search?

There has to be some mystery, some question, some unknown to provoke the exploration, the search, the delving ever-deeper into the depths. Otherwise, it runs the risk of falling the monotonous way of summer-time reruns.

One of my kids said that God is a puzzle, but we can't see the picture because we are all pieces.

Madeleine L'Engle was once asked: "Mrs. Franklin, do you really and truly believe in God with no doubts at all?" "Oh, Una, I really and truly believe in God with all kinds of doubts." But I base my life on this belief.

There's no true way to figure out the divine ... so I'll just keep right on asking those questions. I'll focus on what I can control -- my life ... and continue with the trust that things will happen the way they're meant to happen, and as long as I'm trying, perseverence has to count for something -- but that's just how I see it. And just as I resent having religion "sold" to me ... I'm not gonna sell it to my kids. I'll just open the door, throw out a couple questions, a little devil's advocate, and some unique ways of viewing things, and let them work it out for themselves.

all from some catholic schoolteachers blog.

here's the thread:
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=381147

hope this helps some, it gave me lots to think about.

Since this has moved from "why pray" to "my God's shlong is far fatter than your God's shlong and etc...", I figure I'll just pipe in with this:





Figure out what you truly believe. Not what you "should" believe, not what religion you belong to or want to belong to, but what you personally believe in.

Be true to that and recognize that that is what you believe.

The rest is fluff and elementary. Whether to pray or not, which God, Gods, force, lack of gods or what you believe exist, what role you believe they play, etc... All that boils down to what you, in your heart believe to be true. And that doesn't change when people tell you to change it, doesn't change if you will it, doesn't change if you wish real hard and spout a bunch of shiny words. It's you and fighting you is stupid. You can't force yourself to not be yourself.

That's the alpha and omega of it all.

Lucifer_Carroll said:

Since this has moved from "why pray" to "my God's shlong is far fatter than your God's shlong and etc...", I figure I'll just pipe in with this:





Figure out what you truly believe. Not what you "should" believe, not what religion you belong to or want to belong to, but what you personally believe in.

Be true to that and recognize that that is what you believe.

The rest is fluff and elementary. Whether to pray or not, which God, Gods, force, lack of gods or what you believe exist, what role you believe they play, etc... All that boils down to what you, in your heart believe to be true. And that doesn't change when people tell you to change it, doesn't change if you will it, doesn't change if you wish real hard and spout a bunch of shiny words. It's you and fighting you is stupid. You can't force yourself to not be yourself.

That's the alpha and omega of it all.

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perfectly stated. Bravo!
situated in the rolling hills...flat lands of texas is a lesbian couple who truly believes in this.
rock on, je'sus
god or buda.
only true thing i believe in is: First do no harm. it shouts volumes.

Lucifer_Carroll said:

Since this has moved from "why pray" to "my God's shlong is far fatter than your God's shlong and etc...", I figure I'll just pipe in with this:





Figure out what you truly believe. Not what you "should" believe, not what religion you belong to or want to belong to, but what you personally believe in.

Be true to that and recognize that that is what you believe.

The rest is fluff and elementary. Whether to pray or not, which God, Gods, force, lack of gods or what you believe exist, what role you believe they play, etc... All that boils down to what you, in your heart believe to be true. And that doesn't change when people tell you to change it, doesn't change if you will it, doesn't change if you wish real hard and spout a bunch of shiny words. It's you and fighting you is stupid. You can't force yourself to not be yourself.

That's the alpha and omega of it all.

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Dude, you hit it. I thought I had, but you unquestionably did.

It's all about your personal experience.

hurricane64 said:

Dude, you hit it. I thought I had, but you unquestionably did.

It's all about your personal experience.

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But you know, that may be the whole point of this thread (that I started many pages ago).

What if your life experiences are horrible? What then will God (or gods) be to you?

sweetsubsarahh said:

But you know, that may be the whole point of this thread (that I started many pages ago).

What if your life experiences are horrible? What then will God (or gods) be to you?

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I believe in a broad enough Deity where things like that...a disadvantaged individual who is faced with no chance of hope...is given a pass.

I have to...must...believe in a just God. Not what some slick-haired pastor tells me I should believe, but what I believe God and the world stands for, based on my version of the teachings.

Who are we to say it doesn't happen that way?

sweetnpetite said:

the point is, blaming God for things that are wrong with the world is just a way to avoid responsiblity. We all have a responsibilty to the world we live in just like we have a responsibilty for our own lives.

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God can be a blessing to the lazy and irresponsible, for sure. I admit, before i got serious about atheism, I didn't do much. Once the implications of atheism sank in, I realized we have to do it ourselves.

Like torture.

Foul, evil, destructive shit, torture. But once you see clearly that no God is going to act, no Judgement is going to provide any justice, than you know. I joined Amnesty because there is no God. No one but us can do this.

hurricane64 said:

I believe in a broad enough Deity where things like that...a disadvantaged individual who is faced with no chance of hope...is given a pass.

I have to...must...believe in a just God. Not what some slick-haired pastor tells me I should believe, but what I believe God and the world stands for, based on my version of the teachings.

Who are we to say it doesn't happen that way?

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Justice is something you yourself have to achieve. We're all here, and we have a responsibility to each other, if only because there's no one else. Life is full of pointless vagaries, and we need each other. Call it God Is Love, if you need to. But Love is it. Love is what makes it stop being a nightmare.

I got married. It may not have been smart, but i did it. It meant Love was now in my life, permanently. My being here, in this household, means that she need not be lonely. Her life cannot be in vain because I will witness it, I will cherish it. And there are other, more profound forms love takes.

Parental love, and love of all; love of lovers, which is so keen and frightening and heady. Compassion, sympathy, trust.

People blame God, thank God, beg God. They'd do better to engage with life in Love, and trust any gods to join in when the cause is just and worthy.

delete

mismused said:

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Hey, sweetss,


About the above, my suggestion is to take Blackie's advice:

"You need to take a journey inside of yourself sweetie. You'll find answers there. "

It works. It's hard, but effective. Luck to you, girl.

m

(edited cause I hit the wrong button before I finished)

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I do agree, wholeheartedly, mismused. And so she is. These things take time. This thread is a part of that journey. She will one day be well and whole, at peace. Whether or not any damn God is involved. I'm at peace, and I don't see any gods doing anything about it one way or another. The point is to find a firm place to stand.

sweetsubsarahh said:

But you know, that may be the whole point of this thread (that I started many pages ago).

What if your life experiences are horrible? What then will God (or gods) be to you?

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Sweets, like some others here I'm an atheist or humanist. Or at most agnostic - to be precise, if there is a God (or gods) then S/He simply set the rules, which include not interfering thereafter.

I believe that the universe - this world - behaves according to physical principles. If mankind does stupid things - creating polution, ozone holes, global warming, or whatever - then the results simply follow those rules: prayer won't change that.

The same thing affects individual experience. Life on Earth is rich and complex: there are so many variables that an individual is affected more, or at least as much, by those as by their own decisions. I've changed my life by my own decisions, but the final outcome seems to be even more down to raw chance. I / we can decide which way NOT to go, but the route we actually follow still seems almost random.

cantdog said:

People blame God, thank God, beg God. They'd do better to engage with life in Love, and trust any gods to join in when the cause is just and worthy.

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It's sort of amazing (to me) how cant and I have come to the same conclusions even though he's an athiest and I beleive in God.

He believes that there is no god so we must do it ourselves.

I believe that god works through us, so we must do it ourselves.

Either way, the only way to change things is through action. And the only person who's actions we can control is our own.

I believe that god can guide us, help us and support us, we can rely on him, but we can't expect him to do the job that is set for us to do and blame him when it doesn't get done. I believe in Grace. [Divine love and protection bestowed freely on people.
The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God.
An excellence or power granted by God. ]

I beleive that God is Grace.

And I believe that Cantdog is an angel of Grace.

http://www.fumcmansfield.org/images/praying_hands.jpg

Just found and read through this whole thread... it's really quite a gift, thank you all who have participated...!


Amicus, I wanted to touch on atheism... someone told you it was a "belief" and you disagreed. By definition, a belief is: "a mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something."

what is athiesm but the BELIEF that there is no explanation for the universe (rather than the BELIEF that this IS an explanation for the universe, and that explanation is God?)

Nihilism is still a philosophy.

Your logic seems to have failed you, here.