Can we please reject "American exceptionalism" once and for all?

[Politruk]

It's nonsense. The USA is just one more nation-state, no different in kind from any other. American exceptionalism deserves to be the kind of thing that gets you dismissed as a crank immediately when you invoke it or argue for it, like young-Earth creationism.

 

[Rightguide]

It's nonsense. The USA is just one more nation-state, no different in kind from any other. American exceptionalism deserves to be the kind of thing that gets you dismissed as a crank immediately when you invoke it or argue for it, like young-Earth creationism.

You lost the election it's time for you to shut up and get back to work.

 

[Politruk]

Loyalty to your country is like loyalty to your family. You are not loyal to your family because it is the best in the world, but just because it's yours.

 

[Politruk]

If you want to be a loser, knock yourself out!!!! The rest of us want to be winners!!! That's why this country is exceptional - - you can be whatever you want to be, even a loser.

 

[UltraChad]

Loyalty to your country is like loyalty to your family. You are not loyal to your family because it is the best in the world, but just because it's yours.

Loyalty implies not trying to destroy it from the inside out.

If the USA were a family Democrats would be the home wrecking Only Fans mom who blames everyone else, especially all 4 of her baby daddies for her degenerate behavior and plays the victim.

 

[policywank]

I think one of the challenges with the concept of American Exceptionalism is that even if it does have some merit, it has also created a big blind spot for how Americans view the world because it facilitates an expectation of living by different rules that distorts perceptions.

So when the Soviets misbehave in Cuba that is America's backyard and it can't be allowed to happen even if they have no claim on the island. But Russia sees Ukraine as being not only in their backyard, but as historcally even being part of their nation. Why would anyone expect them to embrace Ukraine becoming part of NATO? I disagree with what they are doing in Ukraine, but it is not difficult to see how much of the world would view the Americans as applying a double standard.

Much the same goes for military activities in general. Years ago I think it was China or Russia that shot down a U.S. spy plane skirting their coastline. The U.S. was indignant. But how do we think they would have reacted if China or Russia had spy planes off their coast?

Likewise the U.S undertakes naval manoeuvres in the Taiwan strait. Can you imagine what would happen if China was conducting maneuvers that close to California?

And while I don't want to see Iran or North Korea have nukes it is difficult for many people to accept the U.S. - the only country to have ever nuked another country - preaching at others.

Don't get me wrong. In all of these cases I support the American position, with the exception that maybe they should have been more firm in saying no Ukraine won't be let into NATO. I do so in part because there is a case for American exceptionalism or at least their ability to play an outsized role in the world. And it is unfair that they get stuck with carrying more burden than others. My only point is that it does create some distortions in terms of how they see others.

 

[ll74]

You lost the election it's time for you to shut up and get back to work.

Like you've been doing the last four years?

 

[Politruk]

There was a time when the U.S. could claim to be some kind of ideological, revolutionary state, a city-on-a-hill example to other countries. But republican government is no longer a rare thing in the world, and we never really had anything else along those lines.

 

[Rightguide]

Loyalty to your country is like loyalty to your family. You are not loyal to your family because it is the best in the world, but just because it's yours.

Apparently not if you vote for Trump.

 

[Rightguide]

I think one of the challenges with the concept of American Exceptionalism is that even if it does have some merit, it has also created a big blind spot for how Americans view the world because it facilitates an expectation of living by different rules that distorts perceptions.

So when the Soviets misbehave in Cuba that is America's backyard and it can't be allowed to happen even if they have no claim on the island. But Russia sees Ukraine as being not only in their backyard, but as historcally even being part of their nation. Why would anyone expect them to embrace Ukraine becoming part of NATO? I disagree with what they are doing in Ukraine, but it is not difficult to see how much of the world would view the Americans as applying a double standard.

Much the same goes for military activities in general. Years ago I think it was China or Russia that shot down a U.S. spy plane skirting their coastline. The U.S. was indignant. But how do we think they would have reacted if China or Russia had spy planes off their coast?

Likewise the U.S undertakes naval manoeuvres in the Taiwan strait. Can you imagine what would happen if China was conducting maneuvers that close to California?

And while I don't want to see Iran or North Korea have nukes it is difficult for many people to accept the U.S. - the only country to have ever nuked another country - preaching at others.

Don't get me wrong. In all of these cases I support the American position, with the exception that maybe they should have been more firm in saying no Ukraine won't be let into NATO. I do so in part because there is a case for American exceptionalism or at least their ability to play an outsized role in the world. And it is unfair that they get stuck with carrying more burden than others. My only point is that it does create some distortions in terms of how they see others.

You make a lot of sense. Just like the Russians weren't allowed to station missiles in Cuba, we shouldn't be thinking about stationing any of ours on their border in Ukraine.

 

[Escierto]

AmeriKKKa is the exception and don't you ever forget it. Home of the white Christian nation led by our anointed leader. Everyone else, GTFO!

 

[Politruk]

Moderator: Alright...Will McAvoy: [Looks at Jenny] And, yeah, you... sorority girl. Just in case you accidentally wander into a voting booth one day, there are some things you should know. One of them is: There is absolutely no evidence to support the statement that we're the greatest country in the world. We're 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, number 4 in labor force and number 4 in exports. We lead the world in only three categories: number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real and defense spending - where we spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies. Now, none of this is the fault of a 20-year-old college student, but you, nonetheless, are without a doubt a member of the worst period generation period ever period, so when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don't know what the FUCK you're talking about!… Yosemite? [Stunned silence; Jenny looks deeply humiliated]Will McAvoy: … It sure used to be. We stood up for what was right. We fought for moral reasons. We passed laws, struck down laws - for moral reasons. We waged wars on poverty, not on poor people. We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors, we put our money where our mouths were and we never beat our chest. We built great, big things, made ungodly technological advanced, explored the universe, cured diseases and we cultivated the world's greatest artists AND the world's greatest economy. We reached for the stars, acted like men. We aspired to intelligence, we didn't belittle it. It didn't make us feel inferior. We didn't identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election and we didn't scare so easy. We were able to be all these things and do all these things because we were informed... by great men, men who were revered. First step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one. America is not the greatest country in the world anymore. [looks back at the professor]Will McAvoy: Enough?
—From the June 24th, 2012, pilot episode, "We Just Decided To," of Aaron Sorkin's HBO series The Newsroom[1]

 

[HumpDayHoratio]

I think one of the challenges with the concept of American Exceptionalism is that even if it does have some merit, it has also created a big blind spot for how Americans view the world because it facilitates an expectation of living by different rules that distorts perceptions.

So when the Soviets misbehave in Cuba that is America's backyard and it can't be allowed to happen even if they have no claim on the island. But Russia sees Ukraine as being not only in their backyard, but as historcally even being part of their nation. Why would anyone expect them to embrace Ukraine becoming part of NATO? I disagree with what they are doing in Ukraine, but it is not difficult to see how much of the world would view the Americans as applying a double standard.

Much the same goes for military activities in general. Years ago I think it was China or Russia that shot down a U.S. spy plane skirting their coastline. The U.S. was indignant. But how do we think they would have reacted if China or Russia had spy planes off their coast?

Likewise the U.S undertakes naval manoeuvres in the Taiwan strait. Can you imagine what would happen if China was conducting maneuvers that close to California?

And while I don't want to see Iran or North Korea have nukes it is difficult for many people to accept the U.S. - the only country to have ever nuked another country - preaching at others.

Don't get me wrong. In all of these cases I support the American position, with the exception that maybe they should have been more firm in saying no Ukraine won't be let into NATO. I do so in part because there is a case for American exceptionalism or at least their ability to play an outsized role in the world. And it is unfair that they get stuck with carrying more burden than others. My only point is that it does create some distortions in terms of how they see others.

American Exceptionalism has plenty of merit. De Tocqueville is credited with coining the term (or at least popularizing it) as he tried to export those ideas to the old country. Ringing endorsement if there ever was one.

It’s important to remember that it’s based on ideas. Especially focusing our domestic institutions and policies and cultures. Not to mention our Declaration of Independence and Constitution. It has an effect on foreign policy, but most of the criticism of American Exceptionalism, almost exclusively now, is criticism of foreign policy, and the need to tear down the idea of AE in certain circles. Just look above and the barrels of ink and bandwidth spilled to make that case.

The Hainan Island incident you remember was an international incident where a US Reconnaissance plane was intercepted and the Chinese fighter instigated a midair collision. The fighter pilot died but the crew of the EP-3 managed to land their crippled aircraft. They were held captive and released. In a former life I was on the staff of the Gen (then LTC) who negotiated their release (one of three dignitaries) so I followed this closely.

To your point, our planes fly close to “their” territory all the time, as do they. Russian Bears (Tu-142) flew off Alaska routinely during the Cold War and I’m sure still do today.

As for our “preachy” attitude. That just comes with being a superpower. You may not like it, but as a country that exports more than enough arms to help our allies, I think we get a seat at that table. If I’m not mistaken, the RCAF flies F-18’s…

The nuke issue is another I’ll push back on. The US wasn’t the only country trying to make and end WWII with a nuke. We were just the first to cross the finish line and use it. Saving untold hundreds of thousands of lives, allied and axis.

Just imagine if the Germans would have won that race?

 

[UltraChad]

M'erica birthed the 392 Hemi, 1911A1 and David Allen Coe........only a worthless commie skid mark would say that's not exceptional.

 

[Politruk]

American Exceptionalism has plenty of merit. De Tocqueville is credited with coining the term (or at least popularizing it) as he tried to export those ideas to the old country. Ringing endorsement if there ever was one.

See post #9.

 

[Politruk]

M'erica birthed the 392 Hemi, 1911A1 and David Allen Coe........only a worthless commie skid mark would say that's not exceptional.

I believe that if we all pull together, work hard, and have faith in the future, someday we can finally put an end to country music.

 

[UltraChad]

I believe that if we all pull together, work hard, and have faith in the future, someday we can finally put an end to country music.

Yea right after you take all the guns....LMFAO!!!!

 

[Politruk]

Apparently not if you vote for Trump.

Let's try to limit this to grownup talk.

 

[Politruk]

America is exceptional in that it is probably the only country in the world where a significant number of people seriously expect to be Raptured.

 

[Politruk]

You wrote: "American exceptionalism deserves to be the kind of thing that gets you dismissed as a crank immediately when you invoke it or argue for it."

One of the few things that annoys me in this world is when someone starts pushing their beliefs on other people. What makes you think it is any of your business what other people think or believe? If you want a philosophy to live by, look up *Live and Let Live*.

Well, it's like this.

 

[HumpDayHoratio]

See post #9.

You’ll have to do better than post #9 comrade. Do they pay you by the word or by the post?

 

[Politruk]

I don't read that shit. Things like that doesn't add a thing to my life.

Then what are you doing here?!

 

[Politruk]

Loyalty implies not trying to destroy it from the inside out.

 

[Politruk]

There was a time when the U.S. could claim to be some kind of ideological, revolutionary state, a city-on-a-hill example to other countries.

I am reminded of this passage from Dickens' Martin Chuzzlewit (1844):

Martin was not long in determining within himself that this must be Colonel Diver’s son; the hope of the family, and future mainspring of the Rowdy Journal. Indeed he had begun to say that he presumed this was the colonel’s little boy, and that it was very pleasant to see him playing at Editor in all the guilelessness of childhood, when the colonel proudly interposed and said:

‘My War Correspondent, sir—Mr Jefferson Brick!’

Martin could not help starting at this unexpected announcement, and the consciousness of the irretrievable mistake he had nearly made.

Mr Brick seemed pleased with the sensation he produced upon the stranger, and shook hands with him, with an air of patronage designed to reassure him, and to let him blow that there was no occasion to be frightened, for he (Brick) wouldn’t hurt him.

‘You have heard of Jefferson Brick, I see, sir,’ quoth the colonel, with a smile. ‘England has heard of Jefferson Brick. Europe has heard of Jefferson Brick. Let me see. When did you leave England, sir?’

‘Five weeks ago,’ said Martin.

‘Five weeks ago,’ repeated the colonel, thoughtfully; as he took his seat upon the table, and swung his legs. ‘Now let me ask you, sir which of Mr Brick’s articles had become at that time the most obnoxious to the British Parliament and the Court of Saint James’s?’

‘Upon my word,’ said Martin, ‘I—’

‘I have reason to know, sir,’ interrupted the colonel, ‘that the aristocratic circles of your country quail before the name of Jefferson Brick. I should like to be informed, sir, from your lips, which of his sentiments has struck the deadliest blow—’

‘At the hundred heads of the Hydra of Corruption now grovelling in the dust beneath the lance of Reason, and spouting up to the universal arch above us, its sanguinary gore,’ said Mr Brick, putting on a little blue cloth cap with a glazed front, and quoting his last article.

‘The libation of freedom, Brick’—hinted the colonel.

‘—Must sometimes be quaffed in blood, colonel,’ cried Brick. And when he said ‘blood,’ he gave the great pair of scissors a sharp snap, as if they said blood too, and were quite of his opinion.
done, they both looked at Martin, pausing for a reply.

‘Upon my life,’ said Martin, who had by this time quite recovered his usual coolness, ‘I can’t give you any satisfactory information about it; for the truth is that I—’

‘Stop!’ cried the colonel, glancing sternly at his war correspondent and giving his head one shake after every sentence. ‘That you never heard of Jefferson Brick, sir. That you never read Jefferson Brick, sir. That you never saw the Rowdy Journal, sir. That you never knew, sir, of its mighty influence upon the cabinets of Europe. Yes?’

‘That’s what I was about to observe, certainly,’ said Martin.

‘Keep cool, Jefferson,’ said the colonel gravely. ‘Don’t bust! oh you Europeans! After that, let’s have a glass of wine!’ So saying, he got down from the table, and produced, from a basket outside the door, a bottle of champagne, and three glasses.

‘Mr Jefferson Brick, sir,’ said the colonel, filling Martin’s glass and his own, and pushing the bottle to that gentleman, ‘will give us a sentiment.’ ‘Well, sir!’ cried the war correspondent, ‘Since you have concluded to call upon me, I will respond. I will give you, sir, The Rowdy Journal and its brethren; the well of Truth, whose waters are black from being composed of printers’ ink, but are quite clear enough for my country to behold the shadow of her Destiny reflected in.’

‘Hear, hear!’ cried the colonel, with great complacency. ‘There are flowery components, sir, in the language of my friend?’

‘Very much so, indeed,’ said Martin.

 

[policywank]

American Exceptionalism has plenty of merit. De Tocqueville is credited with coining the term (or at least popularizing it) as he tried to export those ideas to the old country. Ringing endorsement if there ever was one.

It’s important to remember that it’s based on ideas. Especially focusing our domestic institutions and policies and cultures. Not to mention our Declaration of Independence and Constitution. It has an effect on foreign policy, but most of the criticism of American Exceptionalism, almost exclusively now, is criticism of foreign policy, and the need to tear down the idea of AE in certain circles. Just look above and the barrels of ink and bandwidth spilled to make that case.

The Hainan Island incident you remember was an international incident where a US Reconnaissance plane was intercepted and the Chinese fighter instigated a midair collision. The fighter pilot died but the crew of the EP-3 managed to land their crippled aircraft. They were held captive and released. In a former life I was on the staff of the Gen (then LTC) who negotiated their release (one of three dignitaries) so I followed this closely.

To your point, our planes fly close to “their” territory all the time, as do they. Russian Bears (Tu-142) flew off Alaska routinely during the Cold War and I’m sure still do today.

As for our “preachy” attitude. That just comes with being a superpower. You may not like it, but as a country that exports more than enough arms to help our allies, I think we get a seat at that table. If I’m not mistaken, the RCAF flies F-18’s…

The nuke issue is another I’ll push back on. The US wasn’t the only country trying to make and end WWII with a nuke. We were just the first to cross the finish line and use it. Saving untold hundreds of thousands of lives, allied and axis.

Just imagine if the Germans would have won that race?

I think that I was clear that I agree with the American position on most of these things and I did not say that AE doesn't have merit. What I said was that it creates blind spots in terms of citizens' perceptions. It would in any country. That isn't a knock on the U.S., but rather an observation of human nature. Frankly the world is better for having the U.S. in a lead role and for whatever flaws it has I would rather it be the U.S. than anybody else.

The blind spot comment is that it creates an attitude of "it is virtuous when we do it, but bad when other nations do it". Even if that is the case sometimes it is not the case all the time. Yes, the preachy attitude comes with being a superpower. For the most part in official circles it is used to fairly good effect, in the sense that it is only as preachy as it has to be in the circumstances.

However, at the public level it is more problematic and that in turn affects elections which affect policy, etc. For instance, the institutions of democracy and the innate nature of freedom are often cited as being at the core of it (just as you have noted). But the premise that the U.S. is somehow more free and democratic than the rest of the world is patently false. One can argue the merits of different systems, but there are many free democratic countries in the world. America's power is also very much rooted in geographic isolation from its enemies, a wealth of natural resources and the nature of how it was founded.

We have similar characteristics here in Canada. Not in the sense that we are a world power. But we (especially our idiot Prime Minister) tend to to indulge in a bit of a sense of superiority when a big part of makes us what we are is having had the good fortune to steal the right piece of property. It is what it is. We should use it to best effect for ourselves and the world. But when we start thinking we are intrinsically better than others, as opposed to being in a better position, then we start to believe our own bullshit which undermines our ability to make good decisions. Often alienating other nations with one's own hypocrisy is what constrains any nation's ability to influence others.

America is often criticized in the rest of the world by people and countries who could not step up to the role America plays. It isn't fair. But it also isn't realistic to engage in the "ya but" where you say ya but this nation did this and that nation did that. I mean it is true, but they aren't the ones claiming to be exceptional.