It's dead Jim...

[JustKjell]

My sex-life, that is...

It's been dead for over 10 years in a 20+ year marriage. Apparently I've been married to an a-sexual woman and now have a roommate rather than somebody who I can have a healthy sexual relationship with. And yes, I've tried everything. I'm keeping it somewhat vague for fear of being found out by friends / colleagues.

Anyway, kinda wondering if there are folks out here who've been in a similar situation and how they handled it. Divorce isn't really an option b/c of kids and the fact that it'd financially ruin me.

Fun, no?

 

[Rob_Royale]

Divorce isn't really an option b/c of kids and the fact that it'd financially ruin me.

That's a damn shame. And I suppose she's not willing to let you go elsewhere? So sorry to hear.

 

[Yarglenurp]

Pretty sure there’s a whole subreddit dedicated to this issue. Doesn’t seem like there’s much of a silver bullet win scenario, though, if your wife isn’t game.

 

[JustKjell]

That's a damn shame. And I suppose she's not willing to let you go elsewhere? S

Thanks all! Haven't crossed that bridge yet. It's a fine line between having some sort of physical / emotional connection when you're happy to get a hug.

From the outside we're just SOOOO good together. House, job (me, not her, she looks after the kids)... just a regular dude and you'd never know. It's not something you talk to about with your friends.

Now strangers on the internet on the other hand

 

[BVVRG]

What does your wife say if you tell her that sex is important to you and that you find the current state of play upsetting?

 

[JustKjell]

Basically that she wants to have sex but it's always the last priority for her. Rather watch TV, kids could walk in (we have a lock), busy with her website, reading facebook. I literally come last. Voiced that many times and that I'm only good for money....

I once brought up that for my bday I'd want a BJ which was met with 'so I just have to drop everything and please you when you tell me to?'. Err, no... it's normal for a couple to do things for eachother that feels good for them. Never masturbates either, which let me believe she's a-sexual, which she denies.

 

[Yarglenurp]

well, truthfully, it doesn’t matter if she’s truly asexual, since she’s asexual to you. She could be horny as hell and fucking every man and woman when you’re not around, still wouldn’t matter.

If sex is something that you just need in your marriage and she just is refusing to engage in it, divorce is your only long-term ethical choice. You’re in your 40s (I assume). You’re more than halfway past your expected lifespan. How much of your remaining lifespan do you want to spend as the man you are now? How much would changing that be worth to you?

 

[JustKjell]

I'm in my 50's with teenagers. Problem is that here in WA state you get to pay alimony 'for life' after 20+ years. She's never really worked and I've always worked my ass off. We're in a reasonably good financial state so getting that all flushed down would hurt, especially since I'm older.

But yeah, I hear ya. That's why I kinda wanted to post here. Sex is important. But is it important enough to blow up your entire life? It's depressing...

 

[Yarglenurp]

I'm in my 50's with teenagers. Problem is that here in WA state you get to pay alimony 'for life' after 20+ years. She's never really worked and I've always worked my ass off. We're in a reasonably good financial state so getting that all flushed down would hurt, especially since I'm older.

But yeah, I hear ya. That's why I kinda wanted to post here. Sex is important. But is it important enough to blow up your entire life? It's depressing...

Ok, so this is personal to you, but I’d see it as she’s also worked to support your kids, right?

Sure, it sucks from your perspective. But it sucks from hers too. Any dream or ambition she may have had as a little girl is gone, greatness will never be hers to achieve. You were able to work your ass off because she was at home caring for the family. Now that you’ve split, it’s a fair bargain to support her.

At least based on what you’ve said so far, neither of you are bad people, but it seems like the people you turned into are incompatible. You see the divorce as costing you money. An equally valid framing is that it’s buying you a chance at living a life you want to live.

 

[JustKjell]

Just to be clear, we haven't split. We're still together, doing our daily thing. It's just that that intimacy part is missing. And oddly enough, even a hug or the odd cuddle would be nice.

I'm heading to bed now btw.. Kinda late here.. Thanks everyone for chiming in!

 

[Lifestyle66]

There are those who think your wife "gave up her aspirations" to take care of your kids while you worked to provide the money. And she deserves half of everything.

And they're essentially correct. If the two of you jointly decided on that arrangement for her to be a stay-at-home-mother, then you owe her compensation for her "work" as a stay-at-home mother who supported you for those years.

Yeah, I know, "but she didn't support me in EVERYTHING I NEEDED!" (falling short in that sex department.)

Some think that it's "her body, her rules", and she shouldn't have to accommodate your sexual desires. That's how my first wife thought of it: if she didn't want sex, then I shouldn't pressure her to do it.

But that rule works both ways: if it's her body, her rules, ... then this is my body, my rules! So, if she doesn't want it, only ONE of us will get our way!!! And you are losing the coin toss every time.


My first wife and I went through this same scenario, staying together in a sexless relationship for the sake of the kids. So, I sympathize with your problems, worrying about the kids, money problems in the future, what does the rest of the extended family think, etc. But when the kids were teenagers and she had more time, my wife went back to work, and I saw even less of her. And when the last kid was out of the house, I would come home after work to an empty house (she worked later than me.)

So, I eventually looked around and found a woman who was in a similar situation: She was in a sexless marriage with an impotent husband. And we consoled each other with sex, ... until my wife found out.

My wife then changed her work schedule to demand that I be home for her to go out together with her for social events (still no sex). She was just trying to interfere every way she could to stop me from getting what I wanted when getting it from the other woman: "No strings attached sex!" It wasn't about HER not wanting sex. She was determined that I shouldn't get it anywhere!

Finding that regardless of her efforts, I was still getting some elsewhere, my wife eventually told me to move out. And she informed the kids that we were separating for a divorce. She lashed out with jealousy and hate trying to drive the kids away from me in the initial separation. She even called my parents and my friends, trying to drive them away from me. And when she found a few months later that the kids' attitudes were "Well, who didn't see this coming?" and that my parents and friends were indifferent to the situation, she changed her mind about filing for the divorce, ... but I didn't change my mind.

I found that other than down-sizing and selling the family-sized house, adjusting my spending habits, and moving, ... my life hadn't really changed. I was still coming home to an empty apartment after work, still having the occasional sex with the other wife, but I was then free to look elsewhere!

I'm now (years later) settled in a far better relationship with my second wife! We take care of each other, meeting each other's wants and needs!

In our youth, we don't always know how to ask or look for what we really want or need in a spouse. We tend to pretend and suppress feelings when dating, trying to attract a mate. And it's an old adage that "the honeymoon is over", suggesting that you're not alone in finding incompatibilities with your chosen spouse. After marriage (particularly when we marry younger), people change. It's just a personal choice how often you're willing to lose in those coin tosses.

 

[JustKjell]

Contrary to what others might think, I have no issue giving her half if it came that way. No hard feelings (pun not intended )

It'd just throw a giant wrench in both our lives and the future of our kids which I'm (currently) not willing to sacrifice. It's not like she sacrificed her life btw although some people might say she did. She's done a LOT of things on the side, started businesses (which I bailed out many times to the tune of 5-10k/year) and is now taking online courses.

It's more than just sex I suppose. What I'm trying to find out / learn here is how other people have dealt with situations like this and what their experience were.

In the end it'll all come down to some sort of climax (I'm on a roll today) but it's good to know I'm not alone.

 

[LMWM321]

What I don't think anyone has asked and you haven't volunteered is...

Do you still love your wife? ..Does she still love you?

If you both still love each other than there is hope. If not... well...

Just because she doesn't masturbate doesn't mean she's asexual. My wife was never big on masturbating, nor does she ever seem to notice a handsome/ sexy guy walk by. ..Yet, she loves sex... especially now that the kids are grown and her career has winded down giving her the time and headspace to think and work on enjoying more and better sex. So if your wife is telling you she is NOT asexual, I'd probably take her word for it.

There's no way a group of people here at Lit are going to get to the bottom of what's preventing intimacy in your marriage. My recommendation is to see a therapist. My wife and I saw a sex therapist and it worked wonders. ..But I suspect a marriage counselor may be a better first step in your case. ...But be prepared to hear some things from your wife and the therapist that are uncomfortable hearing. ..And she should be prepared for the same.

 

[JustKjell]

@LMWM321 Excellent question...

Not that easy to answer. On my end, it's been years of emotional abuse from her. Hard to explain but it's basically day-to-day digs, put-downs, demands, etc. I still love her and she says she still loves me. In her eyes, there's nothing wrong with the relationship.

In my eyes, it's changed over the year. I mean, if anything's wrong or whatever we'd just drop everything for eachother, no questions asked. We both trust eachother 100%. Over time the definition of love changes I guess but I think if I had to put it into words, the other person should have your best interest at heart. Not always disagree with what your pov is. Stand by you and make your life easier, not harder.

Whenever I bring up sex though, the can just gets kicked down the road. 'Once the kids are out of the house' or something like that.

I've brought up therapy but that gets blown off as 'we don't need it' and 'I don't have time and don't want to spend the money'. Again, I'm the lowest priority (at least, it feels that way).

And yes, I fully understand that the 'magic answer' is very unlikely to come from here. But it's good to hear I'm not alone. Every situation is different.

 

[LMWM321]

Ugh... Your story is indeed heartbreaking.

To be sure, there is no excusing "day-to-day digs, put-downs, demands"...etc. ..But if you're not pushing back when she does this she may be doing it without even noticing. ..And when she says "we don't need it" when you propose therapy, well...again, you share some of the blame if you just let it end there. ..Maybe it's time to give her an ultimatum. "We're going to marriage counseling together or I'm leaving you.." And assuming she agrees, I'd recommend letting her pick the therapist (or maybe pick two or three then you pick which). She'll probably pick a woman - which I can understand. Fingers crossed for you...

 

[JustKjell]

100% agree and already been through those motions. I gotta start work but will catch up with y'all later

 

[BVVRG]

Basically that she wants to have sex but it's always the last priority for her. Rather watch TV, kids could walk in (we have a lock), busy with her website, reading facebook. I literally come last. Voiced that many times and that I'm only good for money....

I once brought up that for my bday I'd want a BJ which was met with 'so I just have to drop everything and please you when you tell me to?'. Err, no... it's normal for a couple to do things for eachother that feels good for them. Never masturbates either, which let me believe she's a-sexual, which she denies.

I had a similar situation with my wife. “Not top of my list of priorities” was the half joking but also serious response.

Eventually I put it to her that I didn’t need it to be top of her list of priorities all of the time, but it needed to sometimes. She said “you being in a bad mood all the time doesn’t do much for my libido” and I said that her not fucking me didn’t do much for my mood, nor did dismissing me being upset about it when I raised it. She had become an expert in telling me reasons why not.

We have worked this out but your wife needs to take your concerns seriously and/or tell you really what the issue is as without the ability to communicate well and be honest it’s pretty difficult to maintain the relationship.

Good luck.

 

[Lifestyle66]

Ugh... Your story is indeed heartbreaking.

To be sure, there is no excusing "day-to-day digs, put-downs, demands"...etc. ..But if you're not pushing back when she does this she may be doing it without even noticing. ..And when she says "we don't need it" when you propose therapy, well...again, you share some of the blame if you just let it end there. ..Maybe it's time to give her an ultimatum. "We're going to marriage counseling together or I'm leaving you.." And assuming she agrees, I'd recommend letting her pick the therapist (or maybe pick two or three then you pick which). She'll probably pick a woman - which I can understand. Fingers crossed for you...

Daily digs, put-downs, demands ... and the lack of sex ...

I'm not a psychologist. But it sounds like she has some kind of power or control issue.

My ex-wife seemed to think of sex as me getting something I wanted. After she got pregnant each time, my usefulness was on hold until the next time she wanted to get pregnant. We tried "Marriage Encounter" and that helped ... a little, for brief periods. But ultimately even that placebo fell apart.

I think in her mind, me getting something I wanted somehow detracted from her, and the "symptom" were those put-downs, back-handed insults ("They know more than YOU do!"), and demands in the form of ignoring things needing to be done (ie. getting the kids up and off to school on time), ... those were all her way of hitting back at me as her form of control.

 

[Not Normal]

@LMWM321 Excellent question...

Not that easy to answer. On my end, it's been years of emotional abuse from her. Hard to explain but it's basically day-to-day digs, put-downs, demands, etc. I still love her and she says she still loves me. In her eyes, there's nothing wrong with the relationship.

In my eyes, it's changed over the year. I mean, if anything's wrong or whatever we'd just drop everything for eachother, no questions asked. We both trust eachother 100%. Over time the definition of love changes I guess but I think if I had to put it into words, the other person should have your best interest at heart. Not always disagree with what your pov is. Stand by you and make your life easier, not harder.

Whenever I bring up sex though, the can just gets kicked down the road. 'Once the kids are out of the house' or something like that.

I've brought up therapy but that gets blown off as 'we don't need it' and 'I don't have time and don't want to spend the money'. Again, I'm the lowest priority (at least, it feels that way).

And yes, I fully understand that the 'magic answer' is very unlikely to come from here. But it's good to hear I'm not alone. Every situation is different.

I had a similar situation with my wife. “Not top of my list of priorities” was the half joking but also serious response.

Eventually I put it to her that I didn’t need it to be top of her list of priorities all of the time, but it needed to sometimes. She said “you being in a bad mood all the time doesn’t do much for my libido” and I said that her not fucking me didn’t do much for my mood, nor did dismissing me being upset about it when I raised it. She had become an expert in telling me reasons why not.

We have worked this out but your wife needs to take your concerns seriously and/or tell you really what the issue is as without the ability to communicate well and be honest it’s pretty difficult to maintain the relationship.

Good luck.

I was also in a position of never being a priority with my first wife. We did not have children (luckily for so many reasons) but I would understand taking a backseat to the needs of the humans a couple has created. I also could take it if sometimes other things ruled her thoughts/needs, but that sometimes I was the top of her list.

Men don't realize how devastating it can be for their chosen number one person can't put them on the top. I truly don't think I was my ex's top 5 priority for most of our marriage. The lack of both sex and concern really did a number on me, and still does in some ways. I think men need to acknowledge and talk about how that feels.

To the OP, if your wife isn't willing to go to therapy, that does not stop you from going. It's almost never a bad thing to try. You might need to 'audition' a couple of therapists, but it's time well spent.

Good Luck!

 

[JustKjell]

Thanks (again) everyone. It's one of those things that's got some sort of a stigma to it, so nobody really talks about it. During the whole courtship phase, it's different. All you have time for is each other and you have lots of sex, do fun things, etc.

Then real life kinda happens and things change. Thing is though, not for everyone apparently. I know plenty of friends who've been in WAY shorter situations that have cheated. I asked one of them and said he felt he deserved it, rather than regretted it. He's still married as his wife doesn't know.

Anyway, the point is that I (probably) need to hear there's hope, get pointers and heaven forbid find somebody to save my sanity and my sexuality.

 

[ZfrkS62]

@LMWM321 Excellent question...

Not that easy to answer. On my end, it's been years of emotional abuse from her. Hard to explain but it's basically day-to-day digs, put-downs, demands, etc. I still love her and she says she still loves me. In her eyes, there's nothing wrong with the relationship.

In my eyes, it's changed over the year. I mean, if anything's wrong or whatever we'd just drop everything for eachother, no questions asked. We both trust eachother 100%. Over time the definition of love changes I guess but I think if I had to put it into words, the other person should have your best interest at heart. Not always disagree with what your pov is. Stand by you and make your life easier, not harder.

Whenever I bring up sex though, the can just gets kicked down the road. 'Once the kids are out of the house' or something like that.

I've brought up therapy but that gets blown off as 'we don't need it' and 'I don't have time and don't want to spend the money'. Again, I'm the lowest priority (at least, it feels that way).

And yes, I fully understand that the 'magic answer' is very unlikely to come from here. But it's good to hear I'm not alone. Every situation is different.

Ok, so your kids are teenagers. How is your relationship with them?

You work, wife staya home, so I'm assuming their bond is more with her?

Yeah, Washington is far behind in there if divorce and custody for as much as Dimslee claims to be progressive, but they should be old enough to decide who to live with if you pull the plug, which for your mental well being, I think you should strongly consider. There are good divorce lawyers around here and you might need to talk to several before finding one that is viscous though to protect your rights. Her lawyer will spend the whole time making you look like the abusive asshole, so why not dig in?

Divorce is expensive because it's worth it, as the half joke goes, and if you're in an emotionally abusive relationship, get the fuck out. Seriously, women are always seen as brave for getting out of abusive relationships, so why aren't men? Why should you put up with the shit? Are you really going to wait until your last kid is 18 to start recovering?

Maybe next time she starts digging at you, ask her if she thinks she's making a joke, and see what her reaction is? If she does anything except sincerely apologize, she's checked out.

 

[LMWM321]

@JustKjell... You seem a like a stand up guy, but we don't REALLY know you, so please don't take offense to this.

Unless we hear his wife's side of the story, we're not really able to offer much in the way of objective guidance.

After all, it's quite possible what JustKjell calls "digs" many of us might see as well-intentioned reminders to follow a Doctors instructions about medication, diet, exercise, etc... And her "put downs" might actually sound to us as justifiable criticism for how he's aggressive and short-tempered with their kids. And maybe her "demands" are about not drinking when he's alone watching the children - which, if true, is quite reasonable.

I'm not saying this is what's really going on, I'm just saying that we don't really know it's not.

As for sex, there could be good reasons for her disinterest. Maybe he's a selfish lover, or maybe he pressures her to do the crazy shit he sees in Porn or maybe he has horrible hygiene... Again... we don't really know.

Hence, going to therapy where someone hears both sides is the ONLY recommendation that makes sense.

 

[JustKjell]

@ZfrkS62 Bond with my kids is great to be honest. I have more in common with them than my wife has with them, which causes issues at times. I mean, they're both boys, so there's that and we have similar interest. I try to spend as much time with them as possible, neglecting my own time / well-being. Worth it in the end though.

And yeah, I should have pulled the plug a long time ago if I'm totally honest. But here we are. Life for my boys would be completely different.

I've already talked to a lawyer at one point and there are (maybe) some loop-holes but to be completely honest, I don't wouldn't want a fight and pay lawyers tons of money. Mediation would probably be the way to go. Sure, there will be sour grapes and some spats / issues but in the end it'd be fair.

Like I said, I'm in no way negating all the work and effort she's put in. It's just... I don't know.. hard to realize you're slowly but surely being relegated to a piggy bank. I've had some serious burn-out issues and basically got told to 'just go back and do the job you were hired for'.

Meanwhile, the gaslighting, the lying, the 'jokes' and other things just are a death by a thousand cuts. In all fairness, she's done a bit more and I get the occasional hug. Still being ignored (not even replying, looking up from her phone, that kinda thing), while instantly replying to kids and other things.

Things also have to happen whenever she says so. The weird thing is that she never used to be like that. She's admitted that she's changed.

I dunno, I'm not one to give up especially for kids. Communication is sparse and the irony is that she's got BDP (unofficially diagnosed) but that manifests in just 'forgetting things' and what not. We've had conversations about splitting up and that was totally amicable but then the next day she has no recollection of anything like that. In fact, it's put back on me (gaslighting).

Ah well.. Bigger problems that sex. Which is why this is way more complex. Still, it's a part that would us bring eachother closer together and (hopefully) reduce stress.

 

[JustKjell]

@JustKjell... You seem a like a stand up guy, but we don't REALLY know you, so please don't take offense to this.

Unless we hear his wife's side of the story, we're not really able to offer much in the way of objective guidance.

After all, it's quite possible what JustKjell calls "digs" many of us might see as well-intentioned reminders to follow a Doctors instructions about medication, diet, exercise, etc... And her "put downs" might actually sound to us as justifiable criticism for how he's aggressive and short-tempered with their kids. And maybe her "demands" are about not drinking when he's alone watching the children - which, if true, is quite reasonable.

I'm not saying this is what's really going on, I'm just saying that we don't really know it's not.

As for sex, there could be good reasons for her disinterest. Maybe he's a selfish lover, or maybe he pressures her to do the crazy shit he sees in Porn or maybe he has horrible hygiene... Again... we don't really know.

Hence, going to therapy where someone hears both sides is the ONLY recommendation that makes sense.

Absolutely. And thanks There are always two sides. To give you some examples though, they're usually small things that all add up, such as :

1. Can you get me a plate, while standing 3 feet away from it.
2.Asking the kids to find her computer
3.Being a contrarian. On everything I say. I've learnt to tell her the opposite to get her to have a look at things. Example: Rather than, I've read this really good book on marriage and ADHD (I have meds for them, doing fine now but wish I had found out earlier. Different story), I'd say something like. I read this book, I don't think it's something for you but it's on the table here.
4. If I (try) to talk to her (mental state, issue with work) it usually gets met with 'just get over it' or told that 'everyone has issues'.

I kind feel weird talking about all this here and while sex its just one of the areas I focus on (it's lit afterall), there is, IMO at least, a red thread here that has the potential to fix at least some of the issues while we work on the others.

/rant

 

[Yarglenurp]

Absolutely. And thanks There are always two sides. To give you some examples though, they're usually small things that all add up, such as :

1. Can you get me a plate, while standing 3 feet away from it.
2.Asking the kids to find her computer
3.Being a contrarian. On everything I say. I've learnt to tell her the opposite to get her to have a look at things. Example: Rather than, I've read this really good book on marriage and ADHD (I have meds for them, doing fine now but wish I had found out earlier. Different story), I'd say something like. I read this book, I don't think it's something for you but it's on the table here.
4. If I (try) to talk to her (mental state, issue with work) it usually gets met with 'just get over it' or told that 'everyone has issues'.

I kind feel weird talking about all this here and while sex its just one of the areas I focus on (it's lit afterall), there is, IMO at least, a red thread here that has the potential to fix at least some of the issues while we work on the others.

/rant

Well, based on what you said, your marriage isn’t healthy, it’s dead.

I say this because you’ve had the “let’s split up” talk and nothing changed. Generally, if things get to the point of talking about separations, that is the biggest red flag a person could have about their relationship. Anyone who cares about staying together, even if they have problems, will treat it as a priority. The fact that she didn’t? She’s already checked out. She doesn’t value you or your happiness, and you could no more get her to care than you could convince a fish to worry about Mt. Everest.

She might have very good reasons for it, but I think the IRL truth is that the relationship has gone long past its expiration date.